Kato KiHa...worth it?

[GDorsett]

Looking to get a set of KiHa units from Kato since they're not to expensive, however, I don't really know that much about them.

How many do I need to make a shortline consist?

Mainline consist?

Are the Kato units DCC friendly like the DD51 and DE10 models?

Do I need more than one powered 58 model, or can I have just one 58 and have three or five 28 cars behind one 58?

What's the difference between the 58 and 28, other than the model of the 58 is powered and the model of the 28 isn't?

Edited October 5, 2018 by GDorsett

[GDorsett]

And one more, mostly irrelevant question that isn't worth it's own thread...

Are the DE10s used as helper/pushers at all? Considering getting a set of three to paint/number to my fictional road to assist my current train around the "mountainous" Western Maryland terrain of my club layout. Is that viable or should I look for something else?

[HantuBlauLOL]

16 minutes ago, GDorsett said:

Do I need more than one powered 58 model, or can I have just one 58 and have three or five 28 cars behind one 58?

Usually you just need one powered car to propel a 10 car set.

 

16 minutes ago, GDorsett said:

What's the difference between the 58 and 28, other than the model of the 58 is powered and the model of the 28 isn't?

Kiha 28 has one DMH17 engine in real life, while Kiha 58 has two of it.

 

13 minutes ago, GDorsett said:

And one more, mostly irrelevant question that isn't worth it's own thread...

Are the DE10s used as helper/pushers at all? Considering getting a set of three to paint/number to my fictional road to assist my current train around the "mountainous" Western Maryland terrain of my club layout. Is that viable or should I look for something else?

I think only EF63, EF67, and EF210-300 were used as pusher.

[GDorsett]

When you say "ten car set", is that what the model will pull or is that how they ran?

[Kiha66]

22 minutes ago, GDorsett said:

How many do I need to make a shortline consist?

 

As short as you want, as long as there is a cab on each end.  A 2-4 car train was fairly common for the smaller lines, and sometimes the 2 car train would attach to a larger train when it reached the main line.

23 minutes ago, GDorsett said:

Mainline consist?

 

Anywhere from 4 to 12 cars would be a normal train depending on the line and the usage.  Most often a mainline train would be from 5 to 8 cars though.

23 minutes ago, GDorsett said:

Are the Kato units DCC friendly like the DD51 and DE10 models?

 

They can take DCC, but not as easily as the modern kato diesels.  NGDCC in japan makes a board replacement which requires complete disassembly of the car, but should not require major modification as far as I am aware.  They make a motor and trailer car version, which is a nice touch (so you can control the lights in the end cab car without haveing to pay for the motor componets you wont use).  I would convert the motor car and another unpowered cab car, and for the rest of the train just use the included switch on the DC board to turn off the headlights.  This means you only need two decoders.

23 minutes ago, GDorsett said:

Do I need more than one powered 58 model, or can I have just one 58 and have three or five 28 cars behind one 58?

 

Generally a consist would be a mix of 58 and 28 cars (and also kiro and kini if needed), the 58 version has twice the horsepower as the 28 so you would see more 58's in a more mountainous area.  Later the Kiha65 with much higher horsepower was introduced to add even more power to consists, and each formation in later years generally had at least one if the train was over 4 cars.

23 minutes ago, GDorsett said:

What's the difference between the 58 and 28, other than the model of the 58 is powered and the model of the 28 isn't?

 

The 58 has two engines, while the 28 has only one.  Because of the second engine taking up space under the car, you will see the 58 also has the bathroom water tank moved to the roof of the car at the non-cab end.

[Kiha66]

 

21 hours ago, GDorsett said:

When you say "ten car set", is that what the model will pull or is that how they ran?

 

The kato powered car is more than sufficent for a train of any length, but in general the ran in lengths of 2 to 12 cars long, depending on demand and the route.  Tomix has some example consists, but all the cars work together so unless you are modeling a spicific line at a spicific time, you can just mix and match as you please.  Normally a small train would be a mix of 58 and 28s, while a longer train might have one or two kiha 65s and kiro (first class, with no cab) 28 cars in the train.
 

https://www.tomytec.co.jp/tomix/products/img/8412_h.gif

Edited October 6, 2018 by cteno4
Removed Image embed

[GDorsett]

So I would be fine with one 58 and, say, five 28s?

 

27 minutes ago, Kiha66 said:

They can take DCC, but not as easily as the modern kato diesels.  NGDCC in japan makes a board replacement which requires complete disassembly of the car, but should not require major modification as far as I am aware.  They make a motor and trailer car version, which is a nice touch (so you can control the lights in the end cab car without haveing to pay for the motor componets you wont use).  I would convert the motor car and another unpowered cab car, and for the rest of the train just use the included switch on the DC board to turn off the headlights.  This means you only need two decoders.

So do the unpowered 28s not have lights in them?

[Kiha66]

Just now, GDorsett said:

So I would be fine with one 58 and, say, five 28s?

 

You can, but I would recommend more 58s to be more prototypical, usually there was a more even spread or even more 58s than 28s.   If I recall correctly there were more 58 cars made than 28s and with the double engines a 58 series was much better at accelerating a train than a 28 would be, which made keeping to schedule much easier.  Kato makes both a powered and unpowered 58, so you still only need one motor car even if there is more than one 58.  Plus I think the rooftop water tank is a cool detail, and having the mix makes a train more interesting when viewed from above in model form.

 

Just now, GDorsett said:

So do the unpowered 28s not have lights in them?

 

They do, all units with cabs (both powered and unpowered) have working headlights and all have switches inside to turn off the lights when a unit is mid train.

[Davo Dentetsu]

1 hour ago, GDorsett said:

And one more, mostly irrelevant question that isn't worth it's own thread...

Are the DE10s used as helper/pushers at all? Considering getting a set of three to paint/number to my fictional road to assist my current train around the "mountainous" Western Maryland terrain of my club layout. Is that viable or should I look for something else?

Not in real life, but hey, your layout and your rules.

[GDorsett]

Alright, then I'll have to go look for unpowered 58s, then.

So, as a good base, have one powered 58 and then have an even split of 58 and 28? Or should I do an uneven number to keep things interesting?

 

43 minutes ago, Azumanga Davo said:

Not in real life, but hey, your layout and your rules.

 

Yeah, also considered that phrase as well. Planned on running them as a permanent trio. Since the layout I just aquired has lots of slopes, I'm thinking I may need that extra power since I don't plan on having cantenaries on all of it.

[Kiha66]

I say throw in a kiha 65 too, to make it interesting!

[GDorsett]

If I can find an unpowered one, then I shal. Maybe I'll have pictures in a few weeks.

Thanks for the assistance!

[Kamome]

As already mentioned, the Kato Kiha 58 and 28 models have minor exterior differences. The Kiha 58 has a bulge on the roof for the water tank. I personally like the Kiha 65 as it has a skirt at the front, split doors and slightly more interesting seats. The roof vents are also different.

 Maybe also add in the odd KiRo 28 (non cab green car)

 

I have a Kiha58(M), a 28 and a 65 but would like to mix in a couple of Kiro 28, a few more Kiha 58s and maybe one more Kiha 28.

 

Picture Kiha65 on left, Kiha 28 on right

[katoftw]

I'm more of a kiha 40/47/48 man myself. 😜

[GDorsett]

Oo, I like the skirt on the 65. That looks nice.

[catcliffedemon]

18 hours ago, katoftw said:

I'm more of a kiha 40/47/48 man myself. 😜

 

Agreed, can't understand why Microace never re-ran their Kiha 40. Let's hope the Tramway one, plus its Kiha 47/48 buddies, turns out well.

 

[keiichi77]

On 10/6/2018 at 1:45 PM, catcliffedemon said:

 

Agreed, can't understand why Microace never re-ran their Kiha 40. Let's hope the Tramway one, plus its Kiha 47/48 buddies, turns out well.

 

 

Same here, would love to have a Hokkaido Kiha 40 in HO scale.

[jasona2z]

1 hour ago, keiichi77 said:

 

Same here, would love to have a Hokkaido Kiha 40 in HO scale.

 

Yes!!!! Would love a few of those. 

[Kiha66]

On the topic of long kiha 58 series trains, I found this in a very old (1970s?) Jrail I was going through.  It's got some organizations, plus I believe mark's out the the sub trains that can split off to serve other areas.

[GDorsett]

That's neat

[marknewton]

On 10/7/2018 at 3:45 AM, catcliffedemon said:

 

Agreed, can't understand why Microace never re-ran their Kiha 40. Let's hope the Tramway one, plus its Kiha 47/48 buddies, turns out well.

 

It should do. I have a number of their Kiha 30/35 and Kiha 53s, they're lovely models.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.