Japanese shops applying Australian import tax

[katoftw]

11 minutes ago, Das Steinkopf said:

 

 

Hobbysearch?

AmiAmi.

 

Hobbysearch do not collect gst.

[Das Steinkopf]

AmiAmi hit me for GST on the shipping as well as the items.

[katoftw]

Seems they are applying it randomly. haha

 

It goes in the discount colomn which I find amusing.

[Das Steinkopf]

6 minutes ago, katoftw said:

Seems they are applying it randomly. haha

 

It goes in the discount colomn which I find amusing.

 

That’s fine, I will be doing my future orders randomly, some from Hobbysearch and some from MTP, AmiAmi can go and get rooted as far as I am concerned.

[katoftw]

Doing the same.

 

Although I cancelled 10,000 yen of pre orders from them.

[Ochanomizu]

Hello,

 

Update: Yes, my mistake, FOREIGN companies are required to register for GST and receive an ARN, not an ABN.  ARN is 12 digits.  ABN is 11 digits.  The company is REQUIRED to display the ARN on the invoice.  The invoice must comply with the requirements for a "Tax Invoice" under Australian law.

 

@Katoftw: is there an ARN number on the invoice you just received?

[Das Steinkopf]

22 minutes ago, Ochanomizu said:

Hello,

 

Update: Yes, my mistake, FOREIGN companies are required to register for GST and receive an ARN, not an ABN.  ARN is 12 digits.  ABN is 11 digits.  The company is REQUIRED to display the ARN on the invoice.  The invoice must comply with the requirements for a "Tax Invoice" under Australian law.

 

@Katoftw: is there an ARN number on the invoice you just received?

 

I didn’t have one on my invoice.

[katoftw]

I'll have a look when the package arrives.  I'm doubtful though.

[disturbman]

7 hours ago, JR 500系 said:

It seems like the prices are 10% + total cost of items with shipping costs...

Lucky them. In Germany, you always have to pay 19% on item costs plus shipping costs plus any other services you paid for if using a proxy like Zen Market or Buyee. In some other countries you also have to pay a fee on top of the VAT.

[Das Steinkopf]

13 hours ago, disturbman said:

Lucky them. In Germany, you always have to pay 19% on item costs plus shipping costs plus any other services you paid for if using a proxy like Zen Market or Buyee. In some other countries you also have to pay a fee on top of the VAT.

 

I don't mind paying tax if

 

A: If I am liable to pay for it in that jurisdiction. 

 

B: If the money being "collected" is passed on to the relevant taxation authority.

 

This is a case of where

 

1. I am not liable for the sales tax of the country I am buying the items from.

 

2. The money is being collected but from our knowledge the said company has not registered themselves with the taxation authority of the foreign jurisdiction that they are supposedly collecting the revenue for. 

 

Also of note is the said business has not come back to me with an answer regarding this issue, which for a business that is normally very prompt with it's responses does raise some concerns.

 

 

Edited July 12, 2018 by Das Steinkopf

[Ochanomizu]

Hello,

 

OK.  I have learned EVERYTHING about GST collected off-shore, thanks to sending an email to the ATO and receiving a phone call from Mr Raj of the ATO, in reply.  Here's the deal:

 

1. If the goods are valued at over $1000AUD the company needs an ABN, not an ARN, and must collect GST;

 

2. If the goods are valued less than $1000 AND the company will have a turnover in Australia of less than $75,000AUD they are not required to collect GST;

 

3. If the goods are valued less than $1000 AND the company turns over MORE than $75,000AUD of business in Australia they ARE required to collect GST using one of the following methods:

 

a) Simplified Method:  Get an AUSid, register for GST, and display the ARN on ALL invoices on which GST is being paid;

 

b) Standard Method:  Register the business and get an ABN, register for GST, and display the ABN on ALL invoices on which GST is being paid.

 

4. Australians are NOT required to pay GST unless the ABN or ARN is displayed, and the GST itemised.

 

If the AmiAmi invoice does not show an ARN then you are NOT REQUIRED TO PAY GST.

 

Raj directed me to the following:

 

1. ATO Requirements for Receipts Issued to Customers

 

2. ATO Requirements for Customs Documents

 

In short, don't pay the GST unless you're satisfied you have all the correct information.  

[Ochanomizu]

Further,

 

I have asked AmiAmi TWICE for their ARN .... no response ...

[Das Steinkopf]

11 minutes ago, Ochanomizu said:

Further,

 

I have asked AmiAmi TWICE for their ARN .... no response ...

 

Obviously they have something to hide, likewise I haven’t received any response from them, I have however been sent a change of release date notification from them.

[katoftw]

So glad I cancelled 110,000 yen of pre orders with then. The deeper you dig. The more you realise they are dodgy.

[Ochanomizu]

Hello,

 

I just received two separate replies from AmiAmi advising me of their ARN.

 

For Australian purchasers: buying from AmiAmi at 28% discount + 8% Japanese Tax + 10% Australian GST = a real saving of 14.5%.  To get the actual price you'll pay use this formula:  AmiAmi Price x 1.188 + shipping.

 

Presuming shipping costs are about the same between vendors, you're better off buying from a vendor with 20% discount who applies neither tax for international customers.

[Das Steinkopf]

1 hour ago, Ochanomizu said:

Hello,

 

I just received two separate replies from AmiAmi advising me of their ARN.

 

For Australian purchasers: buying from AmiAmi at 28% discount + 8% Japanese Tax + 10% Australian GST = a real saving of 14.5%.  To get the actual price you'll pay use this formula:  AmiAmi Price x 1.188 + shipping.

 

AmiAmi’s list price already has the 8% Japanese  Sales Tax factored into it, like I said before I don’t mind paying tax if I am liable for it but given they are charging the 8% as well as the 10% GST it’s a case of them taking two bites of the cherry. Given that other retailers are not going to charge the 10% GST I will be shifting my business elsewhere as AmiAmi no longer has the price advantage over the others.

[JR 500系]

It really is a bummer you guys are being hit with the additional taxes...

 

It seems HS is also charging the sales tax of 8% ...

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10548471

(30,000 yen x 1.08 = 32,400 yen) and a 23% discount on the BEFORE tax price (32400-25500 = 6900/ 30000 = 23%) - thus 32,400 - 6,900 yen = 25,500yen

 

Also shown here:

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10548461

(22,800 x 1.08 = 24,624yen) and a 23% discount on the BEFORE tax price - (24,624 - 19380 = 5244/22800 = 23%) - thus 24,624-5244 = 19,380yen

 

and sometimes the discount changes, to 18% here:

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10520219

(9900 x 1.08 = 10,692 yen) and a 18% discount on the BEFORE tax price - (10692 - 8910 = 1782/9900 = 18%) - thus 10692 - 1782 = 8,910yen

 

and here:

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10508888

(10,300 x 1.08 = 11,124 yen) and a 18% discount on the BEFORE tax price - (11,124 - 9270 = 1854/10,300 = 18%) - thus 11,124 - 1854 = 9,270yen

 

 

Model Train Plus seems to be the most consistent and clearest amongst all online retailers: 

https://www.modeltrainplus.net/collections/new-arrival/products/tomix-98290-nagano-electric-railway-series-1000-yukemuri-4-car-set

(9,900 - 8,910 = 990yen), straight up 10% discount off BEFORE tax price 

 

https://www.modeltrainplus.net/collections/new-arrival/products/tomix-98051-diesel-train-type-kiha120-200-kisuki-line-vermillion-2-car-set

(10,300 - 9,270 = 1,030yen), straight up 10% discount off BEFORE tax price 

 

https://www.modeltrainplus.net/collections/pre-order/products/pre-order-tomix-98662-sanyo-shinkansen-series-500-7000-hello-kitty-8-car-set

(30,000 - 25,500 = 4,500yen), straight up 15% discount off BEFORE tax price 

 

https://www.modeltrainplus.net/collections/pre-order/products/pre-order-tomix-98658-odakyu-romance-car-type-70000-gse-unit-1-7-car-set

(22,800 - 19,380 = 3,420yen), straight up 15% discount off BEFORE tax price 

 

I compared the same items to be fair across the board: 

 

http://www.amiami.com/top/detail/detail?gcode=RAIL-24747&page=top%2Fsearch%2Flist%3Fs_keywords%3D98051%24pagemax%3D40%24getcnt%3D0%24pagecnt%3D1

(10,300 x 1.08 = 11,124 yen) and a 30% discount = 11,124 x 0.7 = 7,786.80 yen = round to 7,760 yen

 

http://www.amiami.com/top/detail/detail?gcode=RAIL-24971&page=top%2Fsearch%2Flist%3Fs_keywords%3D98290%24pagemax%3D40%24getcnt%3D0%24pagecnt%3D1

(9,900 x 1.08 = 10,692 yen) and a 30% discount = 10,692 x 0.7 = 7,484.40 yen = round to 7,480 yen

 

http://www.amiami.com/top/detail/detail?gcode=RAIL-25524&page=top%2Fsearch%2Flist%3Fs_keywords%3D98662%24pagemax%3D40%24getcnt%3D0%24pagecnt%3D1

(30,000 x 1.08 = 32,400 yen) and a 28% discount = 32,400 x 0.72 = 23,328 yen = round to 23,260 yen

 

http://www.amiami.com/top/detail/detail?gcode=RAIL-25523&page=top%2Fsearch%2Flist%3Fs_keywords%3D98658%24pagemax%3D40%24getcnt%3D0%24pagecnt%3D1

(22,800 x 1.08 = 24,624 yen) and a 28% discount = 24,624 x 0.72 = 17,729.28 yen = round to 17,720 yen

 

I couldn't compare Loco1 as they have not yet updated their price list on these items... 

 

MTP seems to be the clearest retailer, showing exactly no hidden costs, while HS seems to also levied 8% Japanese tax but were unclear with the discounts they were giving and were also not consistent, and Ami levied 8% Japanese tax but were clear on the discount they were giving on the shown price, and often rounding down instead of up. 

[Das Steinkopf]

The big difference here is that Hobbysearch is not interested in collecting the 10% GST.

[katoftw]

1 hour ago, JR 500系 said:

It really is a bummer you guys are being hit with the additional taxes...

 

It seems HS is also charging the sales tax of 8% ...

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10548471

(30,000 yen x 1.08 = 32,400 yen) and a 23% discount on the BEFORE tax price (32400-25500 = 6900/ 30000 = 23%) - thus 32,400 - 6,900 yen = 25,500yen

 

Also shown here:

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10548461

(22,800 x 1.08 = 24,624yen) and a 23% discount on the BEFORE tax price - (24,624 - 19380 = 5244/22800 = 23%) - thus 24,624-5244 = 19,380yen

 

and sometimes the discount changes, to 18% here:

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10520219

(9900 x 1.08 = 10,692 yen) and a 18% discount on the BEFORE tax price - (10692 - 8910 = 1782/9900 = 18%) - thus 10692 - 1782 = 8,910yen

 

and here:

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10508888

(10,300 x 1.08 = 11,124 yen) and a 18% discount on the BEFORE tax price - (11,124 - 9270 = 1854/10,300 = 18%) - thus 11,124 - 1854 = 9,270yen

 

 

Model Train Plus seems to be the most consistent and clearest amongst all online retailers: 

https://www.modeltrainplus.net/collections/new-arrival/products/tomix-98290-nagano-electric-railway-series-1000-yukemuri-4-car-set

(9,900 - 8,910 = 990yen), straight up 10% discount off BEFORE tax price 

 

https://www.modeltrainplus.net/collections/new-arrival/products/tomix-98051-diesel-train-type-kiha120-200-kisuki-line-vermillion-2-car-set

(10,300 - 9,270 = 1,030yen), straight up 10% discount off BEFORE tax price 

 

https://www.modeltrainplus.net/collections/pre-order/products/pre-order-tomix-98662-sanyo-shinkansen-series-500-7000-hello-kitty-8-car-set

(30,000 - 25,500 = 4,500yen), straight up 15% discount off BEFORE tax price 

 

https://www.modeltrainplus.net/collections/pre-order/products/pre-order-tomix-98658-odakyu-romance-car-type-70000-gse-unit-1-7-car-set

(22,800 - 19,380 = 3,420yen), straight up 15% discount off BEFORE tax price 

 

I compared the same items to be fair across the board: 

 

http://www.amiami.com/top/detail/detail?gcode=RAIL-24747&page=top%2Fsearch%2Flist%3Fs_keywords%3D98051%24pagemax%3D40%24getcnt%3D0%24pagecnt%3D1

(10,300 x 1.08 = 11,124 yen) and a 30% discount = 11,124 x 0.7 = 7,786.80 yen = round to 7,760 yen

 

http://www.amiami.com/top/detail/detail?gcode=RAIL-24971&page=top%2Fsearch%2Flist%3Fs_keywords%3D98290%24pagemax%3D40%24getcnt%3D0%24pagecnt%3D1

(9,900 x 1.08 = 10,692 yen) and a 30% discount = 10,692 x 0.7 = 7,484.40 yen = round to 7,480 yen

 

http://www.amiami.com/top/detail/detail?gcode=RAIL-25524&page=top%2Fsearch%2Flist%3Fs_keywords%3D98662%24pagemax%3D40%24getcnt%3D0%24pagecnt%3D1

(30,000 x 1.08 = 32,400 yen) and a 28% discount = 32,400 x 0.72 = 23,328 yen = round to 23,260 yen

 

http://www.amiami.com/top/detail/detail?gcode=RAIL-25523&page=top%2Fsearch%2Flist%3Fs_keywords%3D98658%24pagemax%3D40%24getcnt%3D0%24pagecnt%3D1

(22,800 x 1.08 = 24,624 yen) and a 28% discount = 24,624 x 0.72 = 17,729.28 yen = round to 17,720 yen

 

I couldn't compare Loco1 as they have not yet updated their price list on these items... 

 

MTP seems to be the clearest retailer, showing exactly no hidden costs, while HS seems to also levied 8% Japanese tax but were unclear with the discounts they were giving and were also not consistent, and Ami levied 8% Japanese tax but were clear on the discount they were giving on the shown price, and often rounding down instead of up. 

Your hobby search figures are completely incorrect.  And their discount is super clear.  Hobby search normally offer a 15% discount on the rrp amount for pre orders.

 

So the JR 500-7000 hello kitty at 30,000 is 25,500 yen as a per order.  As tax is not applicable for outside japan orders.

 

All other HS items are 10% when not as a pre order.

 

MTP works the same...

 

And as noted, AmiAmi are not also adding another 10% for aussie customers.

 

Plus all these calculations don't take into account payment options or points loyalty system, which can save you even more money.

 

As been said multiple times, just gotta do your numbers and find which option works for your personal situation.

Edited July 13, 2018 by katoftw

[JR 500系]

2 hours ago, katoftw said:

Your hobby search figures are completely incorrect.  And their discount is super clear.  Hobby search normally offer a 15% discount on the rrp amount for pre orders.

 

So the JR 500-7000 hello kitty at 30,000 is 25,500 yen as a per order.  As tax is not applicable for outside japan orders.

 

All other HS items are 10% when not as a pre order.

 

MTP works the same...

 

And as noted, AmiAmi are not also adding another 10% for aussie customers.

 

Plus all these calculations don't take into account payment options or points loyalty system, which can save you even more money.

 

As been said multiple times, just gotta do your numbers and find which option works for your personal situation.

 

That us true, but I don't know if you do realise that it is stated on HS website the price AFTER tax:

 

 

If they are just providing 15% discount from before tax price they really shouldn't put in the Tax price and strike it off. It looks misleading and looks like they are also collecting Japanese 8% Tax.

 

Payment and points loyalty program differs from store to store, which is what makes each business unique... 

 

And yes I do agree one needs to do your numbers and feel which options works best for you. 

 

3 hours ago, katoftw said:

 

And as noted, AmiAmi are not also adding another 10% for aussie customers.

 

 

You mean they are NOT collecting the additional 10% for Australian customers now? That's good news! 

[cteno4]

So it apears amiami comes out clean when you dig a little deeper.

 

Good to hear amiami has the proper ARN and is set up to collect the aus gst properly. Sounds like that is settled.

 

Of course with amiami being forced to pay aus gst it makes it not a great discount for Australian customers compared to smaller shops not being required to collect the aus gst. But they appear to have the proper aus AOT paperwork in place. It’s not amiami’s fault they now have to collect the aus gst or fear customs issues with Australia, that the fault of the way this forgein gst is being applied. Ironically it looks like the us and China forced Australia not to pressure companies in their countries exporting to Australia to follow these new rules.

 

Amiami setting the full retail price of srp plus the 8% gst is just a way to make their discount look better. No Japanese exporter I have ever used have ever claimed they are applying gst to my order, and never seen that on any invoices. It’s all their internal business how the come up with our final export price. They are saying here is the full retail price plus tax someone in japan would pay for this item we will export it to you for x% off that. There is no saying they are taking gst for the export, yes they get back the wholesale gst they paid, but that’s just part of what they will give you for the final discount. You could just say the 30% discount includes taking off the 8% gst to show the final discount you are getting over it being sold full price with tax in japan, it’s all semantics. Bottom line is amiami’s overall discount for export is lower than many exporters. Up to folks to decide if the final price is what they want to pay. If folks were to demand the discount be applied to just the srp w.o gst I’m sure they would just set the discount at 20% not 28%. Is it a little misleading, yes, but only if you just look at the discount and not the bottom line. Percentage off is always being mangled by marketers to make things look the best for their store.

 

Other shops like Hobbysearch, banzaihobby etc do the same thing of using the retail price being srp plus gst, yes it can be confusing if you don’t just look at the bottom line.

 

hobbysearch also charges their domestic buyers a different price depending on the payment method used (Im sure due to fees and wait times for payments, hassle, etc), so it’s understandable shops will have an export price to cover export costs in their business.

 

Katoftl, you accused me of benefiting from defending amiami (I am, of course not), I could ask the same of you getting benefit from competitors for trolling them here. It was good this was debated as it was here as in the end it turns out they are not absconding with aus gst as you guys claimed and the japan gst added to make a “retail price” is standard practice by other vendors and it’s moot as it’s all about the final price and their dealing with taxes and their associated business costs in country is none of our concern, just the final price.

 

if you continue to slam them I will continue to defend them if I think something is untrue or unfair. I don’t like to see any shop get slammed with false or misleading claims on the forum.

 

jeff

[kvp]

I just don't get it why does the seller have to collect the destination country tax? Wouldn't it be much easiser to just post the items without japanese or any other tax and the destination country would collect it during the customs check. Unless both countries are in the same free trade zone, in which case the seller's location determines the sales tax and no further customs check should happen. What is the agreement between Australia and Japan?

 

ps: As far as i know the UK and Hungary collects tax locally through a customs check. (in Hungary it's 27%+3%)

[cteno4]

Kvp,

 

you can read a lot about the Australian gst decision on line. It’s not an agreement between Australia and japan but Australia collecting their country’s gst via forgein sellers. Yes it makes a mess to try to get forgein companies with no prescience in Australia to collect gst and pay it to the Australian government. Many fears that tax will be collected and not turned over (like with amiami but they now appear to have the proper registration in place).

 

the decision to not collect as customs duty with the Post was said by the government to be too much of a burden for the Australian Post which is not set up to collect duties like this. Of course big companies lobbied hard against it and us and Chinese companies got excluded (hardball politics no doubt).

 

Only companies with more than $75k in Australian sales are being asked to do this. As das noted it’s not clear what the penalties will be, probalay trying to block their packages at customs, etc. ATO claims they will investigate and collect unpaid gst and penalties (although enforcing them may be difficult in other countries and they appear to have given up on China and the us). Of course other companies in counties are pissed at having to collect the gst and submit it and hurts their business to boot making it more expensive to buy from them but smaller competitors don’t have to do this and can get more Australian business. I guess the thought is if enough Australian busines flows to smaller shops they may get enough to then have to report, but then the other shops that were and lost a lot of business from having to collect it may no longer have to do it. Ends up being whack a mole headache for the shops.

 

jeff

[disturbman]

7 hours ago, JR 500系 said:

You mean they are NOT collecting the additional 10% for Australian customers now? That's good news! 

I am pretty sure kato meant: "And as noted, AmiAmi are noW also adding another 10% for aussie customers."

[bill937ca]

Usually the drive for these type of taxes comes from local retail lobbies looking for protection from cheaper or better quality goods.  The US would like Canada to raise its tax threshold from $20 to $800 but the Canadian retail lobby is firmly opposed.  The reality is that I only get charged on a fraction of the parcels from Japan and generally non under the US under NAFTA with an exemption code.  Canada has sued some big box online retailers like Amazon and eBay and forced them to collect GST.   This is also the case with many magazine subsriptions.