Shinkansen 8-car station question

[Hayashi]

I have a question regarding proper platform count for an 8-car, 4-track viaduct station.

 

If I create an 8-car station (i.e. a minimum of 6x 248mm), does the platform arrangement in my drawing look correct? Or, do the end platforms (i.e., Platforms 2 & 3) collide with the Shinkansens?

 

In my example I have 7x 248mm and 1x 124mm in the double track and 5x 248mm and 1x 124mm in the passing sidings. I'm using #6 turnouts and 64mm track to ensure 66mm platform spacing. I know Kato is supposed to be making this simple, but it was a bit like Tetris until I started drawing it out.

 

I hope my illustration makes sense. 

[Yavianice]

Some trains may collide or “scrape” against the side when using platform 2-3. I prefer not to use them. But I also own several non Japanese trains. 

[katoftw]

While what you have done is prototypically correct. I would reduce the hi wall a little to view the train better. No good having 135cm of train hidden behind 125cm of walls.

[cteno4]

Yep you may want to pull a high wall on each end to see a bit more of your trains like Kato notes.

 

you can reduce the tiny scraping some trains can do on the end platforms by just sawing off about 1” or so from one of your straight platforms. The issue is at speed and going thru the S curve of the points some of the Shinkansen lean in a little I think due to the coupler interaction with the back and forth and just scrape a bit now and then and it seems to make the car bounce back out and this sometimes lead to having a wheel set derail. It took a lot of watching trains on the JRM layout with the same configuration to see it happening as it was like 1 in 25 or 50 times it would do this with some shinkansens. I think it may have been tomix ones that have the big rotating diaphragm sections that can constrain the car movements some and thus behave badly with an extra push in the mix. I can’t rementer for sure as it was like 12 years ago, sorry...

 

another issues with the configuration is to try to at least get a straight 124mm viaduct section onto each End of the station so the cars are not coming right out of a turn and into a point. The outward pressure on the trucks on the curve on the outside track can push for point picking on the outside track coming into straight thru and inside coming in and going divergent. Also seems at times even hitting the frogs can cause a jump when coming right off the curve. This went away with adding the straight outside the points. There were still some random derailments around the pioints and thus the observation above and finding the platform ends were rubbing sometimes on some trains.

 

i think I mentioned you can cheat on the station and shopping buildings by sawing them in two and putting the fronts and back at the edges. Seal odd with some stryene if you want and put some walls internally under the viaduct to hide the empty mid section! 

 

If you are doing the laminate for the base you could get away with just the three high walls frommthe station set and make your won low wall from styrene or chipboard and save buying any plate extension sets. The low wall is pretty different than the high walls so if it varied a little in the looks of the Kato low wall no biggie. Even just using a fine gray maker would make the little vertical concrete plate lines as they are very small on the Kato low walls. Hardest thing would just be matching the color and texture of the Kato walls,but you could easily spray them as well to match the color and final concrete texture all across.

 

Cheers

 

jeff

[Hayashi]

Thanks everyone for the tips. 

 

1. I have a straight shot planned into both ends of the station. I saw that tip during my previous readings. Learning that caused me to make the change to the lead in to the station (and grew my layout a bit). Currently I'm planning a 124+186 viaduct at the left end and a 186 viaduct at the right end.

 

2. It sounds like I should definitely trim the outside platforms to ensure no scraping occurs. I want as much of a derailment-free layout as possible. Also thought another alternative could be to add 29 at one end a 33 at the inside of each turnout. That would give me the clearance without trimming the platforms, but that messes up the viaduct station's standard dimensions, requiring even more kitbashing.

 

3. I like shifting some of the high walls to low walls. It's definitely more about the trains than the station.

 

4. I plan to paint viaducts, pillars, and any other concrete elements to make them more realistic or, at a minimum, spray them with Dullcote. I find gray plastic never looks like concrete. Wrong color and too shiny. That would also make blending easier if I make some low walls for the station. Haven't determined the level of weathering I want to add to viaduct walls or other elements that aren't buildings. The buildings will get some extra touches.

 

5. Last and most importantly, I really appreciate everyone's assistance in this forum. My wife and I are in house shopping mode, hence my pre-planning for all of this. I'm pulling together my layout concepts, but have learned over time that pre-planning and gathering info helps make things go smoother. Part of the house shopping includes finding one with appropriate space for a layout (I have a great wife) within reason. It was easier up north where there were basements. Here in Florida I need to find that large bonus room.

[cteno4]

Hayashi,

 

yep you can just trim some off the long end pieces on the full width end pretty easily. I trimmed off the center straight platform as we used the older end platforms that curve all the way to the full width end so if you lop some off the wide end it ends up skinnier than the straight platform. You could make the whole internal track like 62 longer but then you would need to make custom plates for sure and take it up in your viaduct straights leading into the platform.

 

great you are buying the house to go around the layout! Right thinking! Good luck and go for high ground!

 

cheers

 

jeff

 

 

 

 

[kvp]

I think there is an error here. The #6 turnouts and platform ends should be aligned on multiples of 248 mm. That means the turnout, s64, reverse curve should have the #6 platform ends aligned with them and the s248 in the straight direction. Imho S124-s should not be needed at all. Then the s248 tracks will be aligned with the platforms and the station plates.

 

Also afaik the platform collision problem usually happens with #4 turnouts and platform ends. That by the way could be fixed by using s64-s after the reverse curve and in the straight direction to add 2 mm of extra track and thus move the #4 platform edges back by 2 mm from the turnouts. (however this only works for ground stations)

 

 

Edited September 7, 2018 by kvp

[cteno4]

Nope it also happens with #6 points when done with the Kato diagram (how we set up the station to begin with). It’s not scraping all the time just now and then with a little bounce that then can sometimes result in a derailment of usually just one wheelset. We had rerailers just down from there and many got rerailed there, but some ended up in derailments. Got rid of most all of of these by pulling the platform ends back a little. Same proved true for the longer end platforms when laid out as Kato specified. Again I have a memory it was mainly tomix shinkansens so may not be a Kato issue!

 

jeff

[kvp]

1 hour ago, cteno4 said:

Nope it also happens with #6 points when done with the Kato diagram (how we set up the station to begin with).

Still, i think the track/platform diagram in the first post is not correct as the #6 end platforms are 62mm shorter and those should be used for the #6 turnouts. It gives a nice 248 mm aligned station with straights, platforms and station plates aligned. This means the turnouts, s64-s and reverse curves should be on their own elevated plate, together with the #6 ends and one s248 for each platform end in the straight direction.

 

ps: I've not tested #6 points with #4 ends and #4 reverse curves but that is probably a bad idea.

[katoftw]

Yeah the S124 dont need to be there.

 

If using #4 platform ends and R481 turnouts, then it would be.

[Hayashi]

I think I can clarify the diagram a bit and hopefully solve some of the debate. My diagram is showing the #4 turnout platform ends (ID'd in my legend in yellow) even though I'm showing #6 turnouts. I didn't even know there was a #6 platform end until a few minutes ago (Kato 23-105). Just found it in a 2009 forum post by inobu while searching for something else.

 

So, if I replace the #4 turnout platform ends for #6 platform ends, I can either lose the 124s or add another 248 to ensure I have 6x 248s on the sidings (I want to handle an 8-car shinkansen). However, this goes back to the question of clearance that Jeff has brought up. If I go with #6 platform ends and dump the 124 tracks, will the #6 platform ends cause clearance issues on the reverse S or does that solve the problem?

 

As a side note, if I dump the 124s and don't add 248s to make a straight section of 6x 248s, will an 8-car shinkansen still fit in the bypass siding and not cause a collision with trains on the double track? I'm pretty sure there is no issue on collision, but does the train parked at the curve of the platform look bad?

[Hayashi]

Maybe I'm dense or my drawing is way off, but I re-laid out the station without the 124s. I went ahead and increased the bypass siding to 6x 248s which means the double track is now 8x 248s. All that is fine. I'm still using #6 turnouts + 64 + R781 for proper platform spacing. The end result is that it looks like I need 2x 62s at each end to match the platform spacing. Is this correct? I got the impression that from point ends the turnout-to-turnout distance should be a multiple of 248s. My latest diagram is below.

[katoftw]

those turnout are 186mm long though?  So?

[Hayashi]

I know. I just didn't expect to add a 62 to each end. I guess I was expecting the double track viaduct approaching the station to immediately connect to the turnouts (which would be on a double-wide platform).From the previous posts it sounded like something magical was going to cause everything to be on 248s. I can do the math luckily, but thought maybe I missed something. Like I said, maybe I was just dense. 🙂

[katoftw]

Crunching numbers too much.  Walk away for 10 minutes and return fresher.

[kvp]

There are two solutions, either add s64-s (or even a bit more) or just use the station end plates that are meant for these turnouts. Some older elevated sets had everything packaged in and you only had to add straights to the middle to expand the platforms. You may want to look them up for more info.

 

On the other hand, many derailments are caused by not having a car's length of straight between any curves (especially superelevated ones) and the tips of the turnouts. I would add the s62 and an s124 double track bridge or elevated straight.