JR East studies driverless operation

[trainsforever8]

Here are the articles on the matter: 

http://the-japan-news.com/news/article/0004656422

 

https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/east-japan-railway-studies-driverless-operation.html

 

I don't have trouble imagining the Yamanote line going driverless, but I'm really surprised they might also convert the Tohoku Shinkansen. I don't think there's any high speed conventional railway that runs without a driver in the world (correct me if I'm mistaken), but considering the Linear Chuo Shinkansen will also be driverless, I guess that was bound to happen! The idea of eventually seeing the development of the world's first driverless high speed train is pretty exciting! 

 

What are your thoughts?

[Sacto1985]

The Yamanote Line going driverless may not be such a far-fetched idea. The way the Yamanote Line trains operate makes them perfect candidates for eventual driverless operation.

[trainsforever8]

Definitely, especially since they don't really share tracks with other trains. I believe the main challenge will be grade separation.

 

Also, they mentioned that they will also be required to instal platform doors that go up all the way to the ceiling. Makes the investment for the current half height platform doors seem wasteful, although I believe they could simply re-use them on another line, right?

[JR 500系]

Going driverless isn't a new idea, but for Japan, it just didn't sound right, especially so when they have been so emphasized and proud on their excellent human-machine relationship to bring trains to the very perfection of providing excellent service and being right on time, as illustrated so evidently here... 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2018 by JR 500系

[trainsforever8]

Yes, Japan is indeed very proud of their near-perfect human performance with their trains, however going towards full automation seems inevitable these days. On the bright side, they have already sold automated technology abroad (Dubai's metro for example) and lines such as the Yurikamome are already fully automated, so they have the experience. I am still in awe regarding the idea of automating the Tohoku Shinkansen, I wonder how that will go! 

[kvp]

I don't see the need for full height or in fact any kind of platform doors. The metro lines in Hungary doesn't use them and one line is completly driverless (no crew on board), the rest are staffed but runs on ATO and all have IR beam platform and track sensors since the 1970ies. The newest line was designed with platform doors, but they were left off as not needed. The platform system has automatic PA notifications in case anyone steps into the beam and sets the signalling to caution (slow). If anyone or anything goes ower, the signal is set to emergency stop and the power rail is grounded. This allows a relatively dumb train to operate fully automatically. Btw. two of the lines have surface running sections, but are grade separated. It isn't as magic as it seems, the technology is mostly present since the 1960ies. The full height platform doors seem to be some kind of legal requirement or extra precaution in Japan.

 

Why JREast wants to use full automation? They probably don't want to, just have to as there aren't enough young people with the skills to drive the trains as good as required and if it can be automated, then it's a waste of people's talents not to. Also a good team of engineers might be unable to make a perfect score when driving manually but they can make a system that could do it reliably. If any railway company in Japan want automation, they can certainly have it.

 

For a shinkansen line, the trains are so fast, that the braking distance is already beyond visual range. In this case ATO is possible, with perhaps a conductor sitting in front as a backup for pressing the big red button in case of any unforeseen problems. Full grade separation is a must though, because it really simplifies the system while making it less accident prone.

[nah00]

9 hours ago, kvp said:

For a shinkansen line, the trains are so fast, that the braking distance is already beyond visual range. In this case ATO is possible, with perhaps a conductor sitting in front as a backup for pressing the big red button in case of any unforeseen problems. Full grade separation is a must though, because it really simplifies the system while making it less accident prone.

 

With the CTC system they use aren't they essentially automated anyway? They have the formality of having a 'button-presser' in the cab car but for the most part the entire journey is controlled by computers on board and at the CTC building? 

 

I think this also touches on a bigger issue. We can make an autopilot that can completely fly an airliner take-off to landing and probably do so with a lower accident percentage than a pilot...but how many people are going to want to fly an airliner with nobody in the cockpit...?

[Socimi]

10 hours ago, kvp said:

 

Why JREast wants to use full automation? They probably don't want to, just have to as there aren't enough young people with the skills to drive the trains as good as required (...) 

 

 

The solution to crew shortages could be simpler: make all the trains driver-only operation.

 

It's easy nowdays as most trains have automated announcements, and for the door checking, you could just move the conductor's platform monitor from the bottom to the top.

 

It's a solution already used in Japan, on the Tokyo Metro Namboku Line and the whole Fukuoka Subway network, plus countless minor local lines. 

Edited August 15, 2018 by Socimi

[kvp]

1 hour ago, nah00 said:

 

With the CTC system they use aren't they essentially automated anyway? They have the formality of having a 'button-presser' in the cab car but for the most part the entire journey is controlled by computers on board and at the CTC building? 

 

I think this also touches on a bigger issue. We can make an autopilot that can completely fly an airliner take-off to landing and probably do so with a lower accident percentage than a pilot...but how many people are going to want to fly an airliner with nobody in the cockpit...?

CTC is just what the name means, Centralized Traffic Control. That means having a single remote tower for turnout and signal control. Everything is still manual.

 

ATS is a safety feature, that only allows stopping the trains in case of an emergency, but speed control is still manual. ATO allows semi automatic platform stops, but still needs button pressing.

 

Full automation needs more sensors than basic ATO as it still uses the driver as a sensors, info processing and logic component. By adding sensors and logic to the platforms, the trains and the line allows automatic operation but only with communication based automatic train control. So you need a CTC-CBTC-ATO system.

 

About the question of who will ride them? We got used to automatic elevators (i've driven an old manual 6 level passenger one when i was a kid and even knew how to fix end stop overruns when i screwed up, so had my own key for it) People use automatic metros too. Even without platform gates and board crew. The computer needed for it is just a bit smarter than a modern lift controller, but has more sensors and mostly moves horizontally.

 

ps: I think the problem with driver shortage is that the cost to upgrade to pushbutton ATO is almost the same as going full automatic with no diver, but the latter gets rid of the training costs.

 

 

[chadbag]

 

One question about all the driverless automatic driving metro and train systems out there:  How many people realize they are driverless?  I think most people don't know.

 

Airport shuttle trains are the ones (plus the Disney monorails which I assume are driverless since you can sit in the nose and they are not high-cab) I know I've ridden that are driverless.  I think all the others we just assume there is no driver.   People don't think about it.  If they did, there might be more hesitancy.

[nah00]

Isn't another problem with this going to be the unions in Japan? I know railroad workers are generally not expected to strike there but this is something I could see them striking over.

[kvp]

3 minutes ago, chadbag said:

 

One question about all the driverless automatic driving metro and train systems out there:  How many people realize they are driverless?  I think most people don't know.

 

Airport shuttle trains are the ones (plus the Disney monorails which I assume are driverless since you can sit in the nose and they are not high-cab) I know I've ridden that are driverless.  I think all the others we just assume there is no driver.   People don't think about it.  If they did, there might be more hesitancy.

 

In Budapest the custom is to remove the cab walls when a line switches to full automatic mode. The rule is: no cab and you can walk up to the covered driving console = automatic train. Smaller kids like to sit on it so they could see out through the windshield.

[chadbag]

19 minutes ago, kvp said:

 

In Budapest the custom is to remove the cab walls when a line switches to full automatic mode. The rule is: no cab and you can walk up to the covered driving console = automatic train. Smaller kids like to sit on it so they could see out through the windshield.

 

Ah, ok, so there people would get used to it.    Thanks for the info!