JR East doing away with train departure chimes

[Kiha66]

Currently a test program on the Joban line, but if successful it may be expanded to the whole system.

https://soranews24.com/2018/07/31/japan-railway-doing-away-with-train-departure-chimes-in-plan-to-combat-dangerous-mad-dashes/amp/

[JR 500系]

At first glance, I thought it was all gone... I mean, i'm a huge fan of these chimes! (and I guess it's not just me!) 

 

But after reading: 

 

Quote:

JR’s logic is that the platform speakers are too effective, pumping out the chimes with enough volume that people can hear them even if they’re still at the station entrance or elsewhere in the building yet not close enough to the station to catch the train without running at a dangerous speed. However, the company also realizes it can’t just have trains shutting their doors and leaving without any warning either, and so it’s arrived at a compromise. Instead of using the large platform speakers, the local trains will announce their departure via smaller external speakers mounted on the train carriages themselves, which should still be loud enough so that anyone close enough to make their way onto the train in time while still moving at a reasonable speed can hear the chime.

 

Though it's strange to have to install additional speakers on the train instead... 

 

 

[Yavianice]

This is just moving the problem. For example,  in the Netherlands and Germany, departure is only announced by beeps or whistles from the doorway. However this has not stopped people from dashing to the door to catch the train. Instead of dashing last minute, people dash all the time, as soon as they see the train OR see that the train is at the platform or near departure with the platform displays because they are unsure when the train will exactly leave and what time it is, which leads to more accidents from people running all the time. I've also seen people still running to the door when the door is closing just to shove their hand/foot/bag/umbrella/baby carriage (with baby)/unfortunate other person between it so the door won't close, or madly dashing to the door the conductor is in in hopes they will get in.

 

Doing away with platform chimes would be a big shame. I think it is a nice atmosphere in Japanese railway stations. And informative to people that don't dash.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Yavianice

[lesliegibson]

Have to admit I love the chimes. I have a cd with every different chime on it. I know I need to get out more!

[kvp]

23 minutes ago, Yavianice said:

This is just moving the problem. For example,  in the Netherlands and Germany, departure is only announced by beeps or whistles from the doorway. However this has not stopped people from dashing to the door to catch the train. Instead of dashing last minute, people dash all the time, as soon as they see the train OR see that the train is at the platform or near departure with the platform displays because they are unsure when the train will exactly leave and what time it is, which leads to more accidents from people running all the time. I've also seen people still running to the door when the door is closing just to shove their hand/foot/bag/umbrella/baby carriage (with baby)/unfortunate other person between it so the door won't close, or madly dashing to the door the conductor is in in hopes they will get in.

Doing away with platform chimes would be a big shame. I think it is a nice atmosphere in Japanese railway stations. And informative to people that don't dash.

Actually there is a pretty simple solution for this using the departure boards only. Instead of displaying the exact departure time and the current time only, show the time remaining in big numbers next to the train. When it's within 1 minute, flash the train and the platform text. For the actual door close, just a small beeping signal heard within 1 or 2 meters of the door is enough when the doors are actually closing. (any dasher caught by the door mech will automatically open back the affected door only, but this is generally frowned upon) This means that any doors not opened for disembarking or closed back automatically by a timer will be already closed and just lock. The actual speakers many times are mounted in the top of the door, so the apparent source of the warning audio is the flashing door close warning light.

 

The common layout for a departure board is to show the train name/number/destination, the departure time and the platform number, while having a clock somewhere on the board for reference. Adding the actual time remaining is a nice feature as it shows how much time remains until the train departs, way before it actually arrives at the platform. People could determine if they will be catching the train or not from their current standpoint based on how much time it takes to reach it from there. (so if i have 2 minutes until departure and i'm 3 minutes away at the retail area of a station, then running won't really help)

 

My biggest problem with the current JREast solution is when the same chime is played regardless of destination. People can't know which train is departing and often the two directions share the same island platform and use the same speakers. Imho this is very confusing.

 

On some german transit systems, the announcement before closing the doors is 'Please stand back!' (Zurukbleiben Bitte!) from the speakers mounted on the trains. This means if you are not standing in the actual door, you should not approah the train at all. Rushing then from any distance is pointless. A few examples: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0clnXgSZiL8

 

 

I actually like how the old JNR system operated (at least based on the old films). There was a whistle from the conductor and people (supposedly) knew that the doors will close and didn't really try to rush. Then right after this if there was nothing visible sticking out of the side of the train, the doors did close and the train departed. Any passengers caught on the platform had time between the whistle and the doors closing completly to get back from the platform edge or get scolded by other passengers for holding up the train. The german examples above are very much the same, just with automatic doors. An example from JRWest (using a beautiful 103 series set!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvaEuW0hLQw  (the door close / departure sounds are heard around 5:45 and 9:45)

 

[Yavianice]

1 hour ago, kvp said:

My biggest problem with the current JREast solution is when the same chime is played regardless of destination. People can't know which train is departing and often the two directions share the same island platform and use the same speakers. Imho this is very confusing

Really? Very often, the trains going on different sides of the platforms have different melodies or a man vs a woman announcing the departure. I personally do not find it confusing at all. I can't remember any time in Japan where I was confused which train departure melody belongs to which train.

 

1 hour ago, kvp said:

On some german transit systems, the announcement before closing the doors is 'Please stand back!' (Zurukbleiben Bitte!) from the speakers mounted on the trains. This means if you are not standing in the actual door, you should not approah the train at all. Rushing then from any distance is pointless. A few examples: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0clnXgSZiL8

Many rushers see "zuruck bleiben bitte" as a bonus multiplier time to get in 😉

 

 

[JR 500系]

Eventually it all voices down to education, and how much people are willing to learn to NOT run after trains... Any solution couldn't exactly solve the problem, even installing station staff to warn these runners couldn't do the trick... Here in Sillypore, the station staff are around during rush hours to avoid people from running to the departing trains but still there are some people who still prefers to do otherwise. 

 

 

[Suica]

5 minutes ago, JR 500系 said:

Eventually it all voices down to education, and how much people are willing to learn to NOT run after trains... Any solution couldn't exactly solve the problem, even installing station staff to warn these runners couldn't do the trick... Here in Sillypore, the station staff are around during rush hours to avoid people from running to the departing trains but still there are some people who still prefers to do otherwise. 

Education AND reliability of the transport system. I can almost understand people who run after trains here in Berlin. The schedules and reliability of the S-Bahn are a mess. 

I'd never run after a train in a Japanese city, knowing the next one is just 1 to 3 minutes away.

[Takahama Trainwatcher]

Human nature being what it is, we will always rush for trains. When I was at uni, it was an 18 minute walk to the station. So, if I left with less than 18 minutes available, what did I do? I ran.

Like KVP, I thought a countdown clock (like at traffic lights in Hong Kong) would be an idea, but then, if there was a "you are 3 minutes away from the train" sign and you knew that it was leaving in 2 minutes, there's a reasonable chance you would run to reduce that travel time. If there was a "you are 2 minutes away if you run" sign, you'd probably just try to run faster.

Maybe the best solution would be to make the train invisible and silent. That being impossible, full height opaque platform doors might do the trick. You wouldn't know if the train was there or not, so there might be less inclination to dash.

[Socimi]

 

I think the best way to prevent people from rushing into trains is to prevent them from actually getting to the platform, by having two members of the station staff restricting the acces to the platform (with a string for exaple) just before the stairs, in this way:
 

 

1) the passengers are moving from the mezzanine to the platform using the stairs

 

2) the train enters the station, sounding it's horn to warn distracted passengers on the platform and to signal to the station staff to close the access.

 

3) the train stops, it's not possible to get to the platform.

 

4) the train passengers exit the station with a separate exit-only way.

 

5) the passengers on the platform board the train (station chime plays)

 

6) vocal announcment (or better, door closing chimes, either "beeping" or single-tone as we use here, as loud and clear as possible) to warn passengers not to get their body or their belongings trapped in the closing doors.

 

7) the doors have closed, the conductor in the rear cab checks if something remained stuck in the doors (such as a purse or an umbrella) then gives the driver the departing singal with a buzzer.

 

8) the train departs, with the conductor looking out the cab window, to confirm a safe departure from the station.

 

9) the train is now gone, and the staff re-opens the staircase. Passenger can begin again moving from the mezzanine to the platform.

 

Advantages are that it prevents not only people rushing or pushing other people to get to the train, but it also prevents overcrowding both at the platform (thus avoiding people being pushed from the platform) and on the train (preventing "200%" crush loads). The whole cicle (steps 2 to 7) should be approx. 1/1.30 mins long, with steps 1 and 9 depending on the frequency of the service.

 

Disadvantages are that you'll need speicifcally designed entry and exit points from the platform and that some people won't just accept they will be losing their train and are not willing to wait those 4/5 minutes to the next one.

 

It should be a method already used by Japanese subways, such as Tokyo Metro.

 

The idea could be also to use the station chimes not as meaning "the train is about to leave" but rather "it's your turn to board the train".

Edited August 1, 2018 by Socimi

[railsquid]

9 hours ago, Socimi said:

Disadvantages are that you'll need speicifcally designed entry and exit points from the platform and that some people won't just accept they will be losing their train and are not willing to wait those 4/5 minutes to the next one. 

 

 

And that you'd need a large number of additional staff (bear in mind most platforms in the centre of Tokyo have multiple entrances), and it would be impractical to designate dedicated entrance and exit points (beyond those which already exists); there'd be long queues snaking through the concourse (which are usually not capable of holding large numbers of people), probably hindering other passengers, possibly blocking ticket gates; you'd then have a charge of people onto the platform after the entrance is reopened, spreading themselves out along the length of the platform.

 

I don't think there's any magical technical solution to this issue; platform doors will help to some extent, also passenger education and a general cultural change away from rushing all the time.

[katoftw]

People will always run. It is human nature.

[JR 500系]

15 hours ago, Socimi said:

 

I think the best way to prevent people from rushing into trains is to prevent them from actually getting to the platform, by having two members of the station staff restricting the acces to the platform (with a string for exaple) just before the stairs, in this way:
 

 

 

Hey that's a really nice demographic! Did you make it yourself! Cool!

 

While it looks like a great idea, like squid said, it will take a massive amount of staff, and also, people, being people, will argue with the staff saying i'm late for work and stuff like that to get over the rope... 

 

I think the best way would be education, coupled with a really good train infrastructure, by which Japan already has...

[Kiha66]

15 hours ago, Socimi said:

I think the best way to prevent people from rushing into trains is to prevent them from actually getting to the platform, by having two members of the station staff restricting the acces to the platform (with a string for exaple) just before the stairs, in this way:

 

I've actually seen similar to what you suggested when there is an issue with some lines and many people are forced to use a single remaining line as a detour while in tokyo.  The staff formed a human wall and only allowed a set number of people to enter onto the platform each time, so that the mass of people on the street trying to get in don't overcrowd the platform.  As already mentioned it took a lot of effort and manpower, but this was a special emergency circumstance.  I cant imagine them doing it every day.

[Socimi]

18 hours ago, Socimi said:

 

It should be a method already used by Japanese subways, such as Tokyo Metro.

 

Found:

 

(2:05)

 

[JR 500系]

Aahhh so it has already been put into use for such a long time! Nice ~ But we still see running people once they hear the staff says: "Rope Restriction in process'! Haha 

 

End of the day, it's still education and the willingness of people to obey... I would say Japanese do very well in this aspect. I can only see much trouble if this was implemented here... 

[kvp]

1 hour ago, JR 500系 said:

Aahhh so it has already been put into use for such a long time! Nice ~ But we still see running people once they hear the staff says: "Rope Restriction in process'! Haha 

End of the day, it's still education and the willingness of people to obey... I would say Japanese do very well in this aspect. I can only see much trouble if this was implemented here... 

A high tech solution with ticket gates is to not allow more people into the station through the gates than it could fit. This is eaisily done on lines with automatic ticket gates, split platforms and a single service type and it just needs a total boarding passengers counter that is compared against station capacity and reset by the departing train. For a more networked variant, the counter could also take into account the loading of the next train to avoid overcrowding on the trains. For more than one service type or shared platforms, the ticket itself could be used as an identification for counting each passenger group individually.

 

I've watched the video and it's hard work for the drivers to be so precise. It's easy to think up a simple ATO system that would help the drivers. One was put into operation in Budapest in the early 1970ies and used a program carpet that encoded the required speed of the train on each meter of the tunnel. This was compared to the actual speed by the board computer and acceleration/braking was applied automatically including the platform stop. The drivers had to keep a button pushed to move from stationary position onto the next carpet and keep it pressed to allow the automatic system to operate. Once parked and the doors opened, the driver just had to let go of the button and press it again for the next station. The side effect of this simple system is that it has automatic passenger load and rail voltage variations compensation as the markers give the target speed and not the control settings. (actually they give a 1 second pulse at the right speed and going slower makes the pulses take longer, while going faster makes them shorter than 1 second, which could be easily translated to speed changes by the old analog computer) This system has been mainly replaced by a fully digital driverless ATO system on most lines and the last one is being rebuilt right now. Takes the driving out of the drivers work and on some lines even took the drivers and the cabs with it.

 

As far as i know, most lines around Tokyo are also rolling out new ATO systems with automatic platform stops right now or have them already in place. This would allow the aforementioned entry gate control to be implemented for automatic overcrowding prevention. People can't rush or overcrowd if they can't get through.

[VentureForth]

I'll be honest with y'all... This is one area where I think US transit systems have the better method. No chime, no bells.  Train announces "doors are closing". That's it. No platform conductor yelling into a loudspeaker "Kakekomi josha yamero!" Just the very local notice that the doors are closing.

 

This is fine for trains with less than 20 minute headways, but for once an hour departures, the 60 second melody would be great for the unaware traveler.

 

EDIT: I just watched part of the video above (I want to watch all two hours, but that'd look bad at work) and saw how the rope thing worked.  Actually surprised how smooth it went.

 

Then, in the last 10 seconds, blare the 1980s electric bell! 

Edited August 2, 2018 by VentureForth

[VentureForth]

I'll be honest with y'all... This is one area where I think US transit systems have the better method. No chime, no bells.  Train announces "doors are closing". That's it. No platform conductor yelling into a loudspeaker "Kakekomi josha yamero!" Just the very local notice that the doors are closing.

 

This is fine for trains with less than 20 minute headways, but for once an hour departures, the 60 second melody would be great for the unaware traveler.

 

Then, in the last 10 seconds, blare the 1980s electric bell! 

[VentureForth]

Cool video. Watch the whole 20 minutes. The only thing that I don't get about it is that living there for 20 years I rarely saw the polite customer service of station agents as portrayed in the video, however, admittedly I didn't use Tokyo Metro that often. I don't think anybody ever bowed when I went up to ask him a question. LOL