Decoder suggestions - Sound and multiple lights?

[gavino200]

13 hours ago, kvp said:

Actually that's pretty much how the PWM motor drive works in a standard decoder. First it's pulsing at a low rate (on some decoders, you can hear the motor whine), the leds are flickering (but probably only on the camera).

 

Interesting about the camera. I hadn't considered that it might be one of those things picked up by a cellphone camera that you don't see with the eye. Perhaps that's why it looks different in the different videos. (different cameras).

 

Sort of a dumb questions, but how exactly would the circuit look for a light running off the motor output of a decoder. I know I don't have to replicate the Kato model, but I'd like to follow their lead as much as possible, and avoid making mistakes by "reinventing the wheel". 

 

Also, I'm beyond the point of no return with the jets. Just cut the 'resin' jet piece into three slices, so I'm going ahead with the jet lights. (pictures in the main thread). What do you think would be the best way to wire them?. It would be best to pass only two wires up into the jet piece. The resistors will be below. I usually wire LEDs in parallel. But it may be easier to wire them in parallel. Not sure yet. 

 

Also what's your guess as to what LED is used in the Kato model. A 3mm dome type warm white LED? Larger? Different type? Yellow? I think a dome type would be easiest to mount in the engine housing. 

 

Same questions for Kiha, and Chad btw. And for anyone else with two cents to give.

 

 

 

[chadbag]

51 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

 

Also what's your guess as to what LED is used in the Kato model. A 3mm dome type warm white LED? Larger? Different type? Yellow? I think a dome type would be easiest to mount in the engine housing. 

 

Same questions for Kiha, and Chad btw. And for anyone else with two cents to give.

 

 

I wish I had 2 cents to give.   My EE* skill is about a -2 on a scale of 1-10.  I can follow simple directions and once wire wrapped (successfully) an ST-506 to SCSI adapter for my Mac Plus about 30 years ago and I have wired up (after struggling) some electric basses and guitars...

 

Having said that, I can comment on the LED.   Whatever fits but do the warm yellow/white or orange look if you are going for the cool, non-prototypical visible heat at the exhast end of the jet engines.  Orange might be a bit much but the warm yellow-white color would look good.    🙂     Maybe not 2 cents worth.

 

*For the non-English speakers (and maybe non US?):  EE = electrical engineer.  The guys who eat circuits for breakfast.  (And all end up as software engineers in the end 🙂 LOL  )

Edited July 26, 2018 by chadbag

[kvp]

17 minutes ago, chadbag said:

For the non-English speakers (and maybe non US?):  EE = electrical engineer.  The guys who eat circuits for breakfast.  (And all end up as software engineers in the end 🙂 LOL  )

At least i work as an embedded engineer, so the balance is a bit of hardware and a lot of (way too much) software.

 

For the leds:

-wire a standard diode in series

-and two parallelly wired pairs of: a series current limiting resistor and a led

(a total of 5 parts)

 

ps: I'll draw a circuit diagram once i get to a desktop as i'm writing this on my phone.

[gavino200]

2 minutes ago, kvp said:

At least i work as an embedded engineer, so the balance is a bit of hardware and a lot of (way too much) software.

 

For the leds:

-wire a standard diode in series

-and two parallelly wired pairs of: a series current limiting resistor and a led

(a total of 5 parts)

 

ps: I'll draw a circuit diagram once i get to a desktop as i'm writing this on my phone.

 

Thanks. I had forgotten about the diode. But my main question is so dumb, you probably didn't even consider it. Does the circuit start with one motor wire, go through the resistor, diode and LED, and then go back to the other motor wire? Or does it go somewhere else? 

[kvp]

2 hours ago, gavino200 said:

Thanks. I had forgotten about the diode. But my main question is so dumb, you probably didn't even consider it. Does the circuit start with one motor wire, go through the resistor, diode and LED, and then go back to the other motor wire? Or does it go somewhere else? 

Exactly like that.

[gavino200]

I think this is the best view of the jet lights I've seen. It's from an old ebay auction. The lights flicker slightly but not much. It's not clear if the motor is running in this video, but I think is see some motor vibrations. I think this supports kv's theory.

 

If you look carefully at the pictures of the loco shown in the ebay auction, you can clearly see the sound decoder and speaker through the windows. It doesn't look great. Given advancements in decoders and speaker technology over the last 10 years of so, this might be something I could actually improve on.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/152983952186

 

 

[gavino200]

I put the Digitrax decoder in today. I thought that would take a few minutes. It ended up taking a really long time. Basically the entire evening. For a decoder that's specifically designed for this loco, it's a very difficult install. It's extremely hard to get electrical contact. A YouTube video suggested cleaning the contact pads and making small blob of solder on them to help make contact. That helped but wasn't great. I ended up discovering a new (for me) technique. I very slightly tinned the decoder pads and the copper strips. Then I took the wire core from a 30 gauge wire, tinned it, and soldered a joint between the pad and the copper strip. It made a perfect connection and takes up very little space. 

 

For a long time I wasn't sure if I had a contact problem or a short. Thanks to my trusty decoder tester, I knew the decoder was still living. I'm glad I decided to work on the electric and modelling sides of the project in parallel. I can't imagine the pressure I would have felt to make this work, if I had already invested a small eternity in modelling the shell. 

 

Next up, the jet LED and the Sound Decoder.

 

[chadbag]

20 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

 

 

So, what did the guy in the silver car do to attract that much military attention?

 

Yeah, sometimes the decoder jobs you think will be hard are easy and the easy ones are hard.  I installed a speaker in my BR147 the other day.  PITA (as I misjudged how much I would have to take off the sound box to make it fit).

[gavino200]

1 minute ago, chadbag said:

 

So, what did the guy in the silver car do to attract that much military attention?

 

Thought crime.

 

1 minute ago, chadbag said:

 

Yeah, sometimes the decoder jobs you think will be hard are easy and the easy ones are hard. 

 

Ain't that the truth! Sometimes just opening a loco without breaking it takes me forever!

[chadbag]

 

And where is Mr. Incredible when you need him?   That tram is heading for a broken elevated track section that ends abruptly.

Edited August 7, 2018 by chadbag

[gavino200]

This Digitrax sound decoer should just fit under the roof. I'm using it as a 'stand alone' so I can clip the six pin connectors and the white wire. With adjustment of wire length, and placement of the speaker in the windowless part, I should be able to keep the windows unobstructed. 

 

For now I'll connect a pair of alligator clips to this, so I can work on editing 'jet train' sounds and getting them programmed into this thing.

 

 

[gavino200]

I did a little more work on the electrical side of things. I added wires from the main pick up (red/black) for the sound decoder, and from the decoder motor outputs (grey/orange) for the jet LEDs. I hooked up the jets via test clips and they work. I hope that I won't have to open the chassis again. It's one of those odd Kato locos with lots of tricks. I know them all now but there's always a chance I could forget some and damage it. 

 

The decoder has a tiny hold that works perfectly for passing the jet wires. Almost like it was designed specially with this in mind (wink wink).

 

I also wired the sound decoder to some clips and tested it. It works fine. My next step will be to learn how to program it with new sound files, then edit the sound from the YouTube video into the right format and add it. 

 

The LEDs on the RDC are yellow front and red for rear. I need to decide if I want to swap the Yellow for white. I don't think anyone knows what color front light the prototype had. All photos and films are during the day. I believe the Kato Kobo model uses white light though. 

 

Tiny hole in decoder "for" passing wires.

 

 

 

Gap in plastic "for" passing jet wires.

 

 

 

 

Jets-in-a-box

 

 

 

 

Testing the jets - not enough hands to take an "action" shot.

 

 

 

 

Forward and reverse

 

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by gavino200

[gavino200]

My only experience editing sound was for languages. I used a free program called "Audacity". IIRC it had the ability to save in multiple formats. I'm going to start reading about how to add sound files to a digitrax decoder. 

 

If anyone has any pearls or warnings that you can share I'd be very grateful. 

 

Specifically. 

How to you transfer files? I'm assuming JMRI on the program track.

What file type? Size? 

Any editing program that you'd recommend. (free is good, cheap is acceptable).

[kvp]

6 hours ago, gavino200 said:

My only experience editing sound was for languages. I used a free program called "Audacity". IIRC it had the ability to save in multiple formats. I'm going to start reading about how to add sound files to a digitrax decoder. 

 

If anyone has any pearls or warnings that you can share I'd be very grateful. 

 

Specifically. 

How to you transfer files? I'm assuming JMRI on the program track.

What file type? Size? 

Any editing program that you'd recommend. (free is good, cheap is acceptable).

I think you should read this:

http://www.digitrax.com/products/computer-control/pr4/

Quote

Digitrax “SoundLoader” compatible. Programs Digitrax sound projects to SFX decoders.

 

[gavino200]

19 hours ago, kvp said:

I think you should read this:

http://www.digitrax.com/products/computer-control/pr4/

 

 

Thanks kvp. I already have the digitrax PR4. That's what I used to connect my computer to my layout. 

 

I'll install 'Sound loader' on my layout computer and start playing around with it.

 

From the "Sound Loader" page it looks like it uses .wav files. 

 

http://www.digitrax.com/downloads/soundloader/

 

So I should be able to chop the YouTube sound file with Audacity and save as separate .wav files.

 

[gavino200]

From the Digitrax website:

http://www.digitrax.com/sound-depot/

 

Creating New Sound Project Files From Your Own Recordings

If you're really motivated you can take .wav files you've recorded and make your own customized sound project files. This process of converting 'raw' sounds you've recorded in the field into a Sound Project file is a long and exacting task, especially if you want the sound to be realistic.  On the other hand it is very rewarding to hear the recordings you have made come from your models.  Sound editors are readily available on the web for free.  

There are two kinds of sounds in SoundFX decoders, simple sounds and sequenced sounds. A simple sound is a sound that always sounds the same and always has the same length. An example of a simple sound is a bell. The striker strikes the bell and it rings for a certain length of time.  The other type of sound SoundFX decoders support is sequenced sound. A sequenced sound is a sound that is made up of three parts: an Attack sound, a Sustain sound, and a Decay sound.  Examples of sequenced sounds are the whistle, water pump, horn, etc.

To prepare a simple sound, using a sound editor:

1. Isolate the sound by trimming the excess time from the recording by carefully marking the beginning and the end of the sound you want to create.

2. Save this trimmed file as a .wav file as "8 bit" and 11 kilohertz (khz).

3. Open the SoundLoader application. The main screen of SoundLoader shows "sound types" or parts of the locomotive's sound scheme (Diesel Bell, Diesel Brakes, etc).

4.  Locate the sound type you want to change in this list and "right-click" on that entry -

5.  Select "Assign Sound File" 

6.  Browse to the new Wav file you created and saved previously, select the file and click the 'Open' button.

7.  You've successfully modified the original Sound Project File.  Save this modified sound project file under a new file name.

You can repeat the above steps and replace as many (or all) of the sound types as desired in the original Project file. Once you've finished your customized Sound Project File you can download it directly to your locomotive using SoundLoader's "Program" button, email it to a friend who has a similar Locomotive, and submit it to the Sound Depot by clicking here to share it with other model railroaders on the Digitrax Sound Depot.

To prepare a sequenced sound, using a sound editor:

A sequenced sound is a sound that is made up of three parts: an Attack sound, a Sustain sound, and a Decay sound. The Attack is the ‘starting’ sound, the Sustain is the ‘running’ part of the sound, and the Decay is the 'end' sound. An example of a sequenced sound is the horn. Blowing the horn for 15 seconds requires an Attack sound that begins the sequence, a Sustain sound that prolongs the sound for as long as desired, and finally ends with a Decay sound. In actual practice, file sizes for the beginning and end of the sound, the Attack and Decay, may possibly be larger than the Sustain because the Sustain is simply a small snippet of sound repeated as long as needed.

Examples of SoundFX sequenced sounds are the Whistle, Water Pump and Horn. In the SoundLoader main screen you’ll see each of these sounds have a Start, Run, and End component. To prepare a sequenced sound you'll need to make 3 .wav files (The Start, Run, and End parts)

The finer points of making natural sounding sequenced sounds include:

1.  Recording several complete sound events (for example, several complete whistle blasts from start to finish).  If possible, make these recordings each time varying distance from the Locomotive. If you’re going out to a distant site to make the sound recordings, you might as well come back with more than one recording to choose from. A single recorded whistle blast may sound great by the siding, but may not sound as good once you listen to the recording at home so get several recordings from different distances and give yourself the latitude to choose the best.

2.  Once you’ve chosen the best candidate, again you’ll need to isolate the complete sound by trimming the excess time from the recording. The goal here is to get just the complete sound event (whistle/horn blast/etc) with almost no sound before or after on the recording. Once you’ve got it, save this file. Save a copy of it (with a different name) in a safe place on your hard drive. Next, we’ll chop up the working copy of this sound file.

3.  The ‘Start’ Part

Listen to your newly trimmed sound. Repeatedly. Depending on the sound editor you’re using, playing from the beginning you’ll eventually be able to ‘see’ a place on the timeline where the sound stabilizes. In other words, you’ll be able to see the point on the timeline where the tone of the sound starts to remain consistent. That’s the point where you want to make your first cut. Save this file segment (again, in the 8 bit / 11 kilohertz format). Be descriptive, if it’s a horn recording name it something easy for others to identify like:  Start_GMF7_horn.wav.

4.  The ‘Run’ Part

This one’s easy, depending on how long the total recording is, most of it will be the stable ‘run’ part of the sound. Copy a piece of this sound (typically less than 1 second long) to the clipboard and save this sound. Again, name it something consistent and descriptive: Run_GMF7_horn.wav.

5. The ‘End’ Part

By now you’ve probably got the hang of it. Mark the point in your recording just before the run sound starts to change, copy from this point to the very end of your sound clip. Save it naming it something like:  End_GMF7_horn.wav.

6.  You’re now ready to overlay these newly create sound components into an existing Sound Project file to create a new, unique project file. There’s no limit to what you can create.

7.  Congratulations! You’ve just created your very own locomotive sound.  Be sure you have everything saved.  And don't forget to submit it to Digitrax if you are willing to share with others.

[gavino200]

.

Edited August 29, 2018 by gavino200

[gavino200]

I'm confused about how the sound functions work on this loco. I was assuming that the sounds were all based on pressing function buttons and independent of the motor functions. I thought that I just needed to isolate sound files and add them to the sound decoder, which is not linked to the motor decoder.

 

However, looking again at this video (below) it seems that the basic jets up, jets stable, jets down sounds are linked to the throttle. ie the jet sound seems to increase as the throttle is increased. 

 

Is it possible to recreate something like this with my current two decoder setup?? Or do my decoders need to be linked somehow?

 

My sound decoder has an 8 pin connector. If I connect two wires from the motor output of the motor decoder to the correct pair of pins on the sound decoder, can that be used to connect jet sounds to motor output??

 

http://www.digitrax.com/products/sound-decoders/sfx006/

 

Or is it possible to set a sound on the sound decoder to respond to the throttle switch on the control cab?  Both the motor and sound decoder will be programmed to the same address.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by gavino200

[kvp]

A sound decoder could be linked to a motor decoder if it's a susi type, which cluld not function on its own. The digital susi bus carries the decoded dcc commands and the actual motor feedback data, along with all the power needed for the decoder. Smaller N scale motor decoders without a buffer cap usually struggle with powering a susi sound decoder.

 

Using two dcc based unconnected decoders don't usually work as the sound would be out of sync from the actual speed of the train. In your case with the jet sound, that might be ok.

 

The classic solution is to use a single decoder that has a buffer cap and has sound, motor and function outputs.

 

Your sound decoder seems to be using a custom non standard host interface instead of susi, so it could only be used with its dedicated motor decoder board and connected with the 8 pin connector or unconnected and track powered.

[gavino200]

So I needn't have worried, I think. It looks like the decoder has a basic engine rumble that increases and decreases with the throttle knob. It's currently loaded with diesel sounds. I think switching the function key sounds should be pretty simple. I still don't know exactly how this sound file is manipulated with respect to the throttle. Frequency and volume only? Or separate recording for different throttle ranges? I may have to call Digitrax to find out.

 

Here is the basic sound only decoder sound in response to slow increase in throttle speed and sudden shut down. Sorry about the 'vertical video'. I don't know why it came out that way. I don't YouTube much.

 

 

 

[gavino200]

I've re-learned the basics of how to edit sound on Audacity. The link below is the M-497 airhorn sound. Unfortunately the lowest resolution that Audacity allows you to save in seems to be 16 bit. Digitrax is looking for 8 bit samples. If I can't find a way to thin out the file with Audacity I may need to switch to a different sound editor.

 

https://clyp.it/user/eyagkzds

Edited August 30, 2018 by gavino200

[gavino200]

Instructions for producing 11 KHz, 8-bit files with Audacity

 

Format

https://www.techwalla.com/articles/how-to-make-8-bit-sounds-with-audacity

 

Sample rate

https://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Sample_Rates#reduced

[gavino200]

I've managed to edit and save all of the Kato M-497 sounds from the YouTube video. The sounds are quite well isolated. I think they'd work quite well to replicate the Kato sounds. But it just occurred to me that the sounds aren't actually all that good. I may be able to get better sound files by sampling airplane videos and using some other train sounds. 

 

The sounds so far are

 

1. Jets winding up, jets stable, and jets winding down.  - These are not bad, but I might be able to get better jet sounds

2. Airhorn - very standard, nothing special at all

3. Coupler noise - quiet and unimpressive. Not even sure I need or want this sound. 

4. Air feature - enables pop-off and starts compressor. I didn't notice any sound for this, and neither did the video guy. I think K Kobo may have forgotten to upload the sound file.

5. Afterburner - this is an unconvincing and unpleasant sound. I may use another file, or ignore this. These jets didn't have afterburners apparently

6. Crossing gate airhorn - nothing special. Sounds just like the other airhorn to me.

 

I may just start fresh and make my own sound files. Maybe add some silly fun ones.

 

I understand the sound process now except the sound-connected-to-throttle sounds. I don't fully understand how they work. I think I'll download "Digitrax Sound Loader". It may become obvious as I look at the software commands. If not, I'll call Digitrax.

 

 

Edited August 30, 2018 by gavino200

[gavino200]

I've made a little progress. I downloaded SoundLoader and a few sample "Sound Projects" from digitrax. The screenshot below is a sound project for a GG1 open in soundLoader. There's nothing special about the soundfiles that are used for the throttle dependent sounds. 

 

I've worked out how to use an already existing sound project and substitute my sound files that I made last night, for the sound files in the sound project. 

 

What I haven't worked out how to do is to create a new Sound Project from scratch. Digitrax seem to want you to "modify" existing projects rather than making from scratch. They hint at this but don't say it outright. 

 

I don't know if there is something special about the specific command names, the numbers they are given, or the order they are given. 

 

My strategy for the moment will be to select a sound file that has approximately the functions I want, modify it, and then save it. 

 

I have a ticket in with Digitrax asking some questions.

 

 

 

 

[gavino200]

I heard back from Digitrax. They recommend a free program developed by Fred Miller that makes it easier to develop new sound projects for Digitrax sound decoders. It's called SPJHelper Developement software.

 

Available through this site.

http://www.fnbcreations.net/projects.htm