Decoder suggestions - Sound and multiple lights?

[gavino200]

I'm working on a project to replicate the Kato Kobo M-497 "Black Beetle" jet train, by converting a Kato RDC. So far I haven't been able to find out what decoder Kato used in the original, but I'm still trying to find out. It's probably a Digitrax. 

 

Below is a Digitrax pdf with instructions for installation of a non sound decoder into a Kato RDC. It looks like it fits neatly under the floor in a special compartment

http://www.digitrax.com/static/apps/products/mobile-decoders/dn143k2/documents/DN143K2_web_1.pdf

 

This is the DN143k2. This is not a sound decoder, but it is a decoder known to fit the space available.

https://www.ebay.com/p/Digitrax-DCC-DN143K2-Decoder-for-Kato-N-RDC-Others/1301598142?iid=352295893654&_trksid=p2047675.m4097.l9055

 

Digitrax doesn't list the actual size. For physical size they just say "special for Kato RDC". 

http://www.digitrax.com/media/apps/products/mobile-decoders/dn143k2/documents/Spec Sheet DN143k2.pdf

 

I'll try to measure the space and post pics of the motor chassis. 

 

Here is a closed ebay auction page that shows the function commands for the Kato M-497. There's also a picture of the the box with the same commands. 

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Super-RARE-Kato-Kobo-Custom-Exclusive-JET-POWERED-RDC-DCC-with-SOUND-/153092350738?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D52950%26meid%3D21fe4113814a45d08259cc276b428793%26pid%3D100013%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D153092350738%26itm%3D153092350738&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=OAvbrIG0JAjm6%2BPsvIrXv7VOblI%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc

 

Here is a video from the same auction. It shows all the functions. 

 

I don't use trainsponding or anything fancy like that. So I don't really care what brand I use. This application has more light functions than any loco I've had before. Also, I've only installed a few sound decoders so I have limited experience with them. Can anyone suggest a sound decoder that could do the job. A small decoder would be ideal. ESU and D&H would require me to get a proprietary piece of programming hardware. I'll do that if I have to, but would rather not. Other than that I like these brands. 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2018 by gavino200

[chadbag]

You could add a function decoder that supports sound (D&H for example).  This gives you an extra set of functions for your lights.  You would need to buy the D&H programmer (or for another brand decoders, their programmer) but once you did, you would have it for all your other projects.  It is a one time cost.

 

I don't have a lot of experience except through research and reading.  I have the stuff sitting here but have not really done anything with it yet (D&H function decoder and D&G sound decoder).

 

 

[gavino200]

5 minutes ago, chadbag said:

You could add a function decoder that supports sound (D&H for example).  This gives you an extra set of functions for your lights.  You would need to buy the D&H programmer (or for another brand decoders, their programmer) but once you did, you would have it for all your other projects.  It is a one time cost.

 

I don't have a lot of experience except through research and reading.  I have the stuff sitting here but have not really done anything with it yet (D&H function decoder and D&G sound decoder).

 

 

 

I've heard you mention this before. You chose decoders with some special socket, so you can add sound later? Is that right? I'm guessing that a D&H function decoder would be extremely small.

 

I agree about the programmer. I very much like ESU and DH. Mostly because of small size. Disadvantage of DH is that there isn't a local distribute yet. But I could always stockpile a few and shop ahead of need.

[gavino200]

By the way. I looked at the video again, and it looks like the jet LED flickers slowly rather than simply turning on and staying on. Anyone know if this is a simple software (CV) tweak, or if special hardware is needed.

[gavino200]

So I got a bit of information from KatoUSA. They don't know what decoders were used, and they can't suggest anyone else who might know. But I was able to find out two important pieces of information.

 

1. There were two separate decoders in the Kato Kobo model

2. They wouldn't necessarily have been Digitrax. 

[kvp]

13 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

By the way. I looked at the video again, and it looks like the jet LED flickers slowly rather than simply turning on and staying on. Anyone know if this is a simple software (CV) tweak, or if special hardware is needed.

Flickering is usually done with the firebox simulator option if the decoder in question has one, but this seems more like it's directly connected to the throttle, so parallel to the motor output (with a reverse protection diode, so it turns off when the unit is backing up on diesel power) The extra hardware is just the protection diode and the two series current limiting resistors, one for each led in each engine.

[Kiha66]

Digitrax decoders have remapable functions, so you just change the cv associated with that function and you can get firebox flicker fairly easily.  Check the digitrax manual for the specific cvs and values, I use it to add mars lights to US locomotives in many of my installations.

[chadbag]

2 hours ago, gavino200 said:

 

I've heard you mention this before. You chose decoders with some special socket, so you can add sound later? Is that right? I'm guessing that a D&H function decoder would be extremely small.

 

I agree about the programmer. I very much like ESU and DH. Mostly because of small size. Disadvantage of DH is that there isn't a local distribute yet. But I could always stockpile a few and shop ahead of need.

 

There is an "interface" called SUSI which multiple (mostly Euro) manufacturers add to some of their decoders which allow a sound decoder to be added to a normal decoder.  It usually "uses up" some of the "Aux" functions on the decoder.  The D&H decoders, including their function decoder, have SUSI.  I think some ESU and others also have it.  D&H makes a function decider which is basically a DH05 without motor function -- the FH05B -- https://doehler-haass.de/cms/pages/produkte/fahrzeugdecoder/fh05b.php

 

D&H also makes a SUSI compatible stand alone sound decoder -- https://doehler-haass.de/cms/pages/produkte/soundsystem/sh10a.php as well as combo motor and sound controller decoders (I have a couople of the SD18A which have a Next18 interface and motor controller plus sound for some Fleischmann stuff I have)

 

It supports 4 functions plus SUSI plus front and rear lights or 6 functions without SUSI plus lights.  The Aux 3/4 (and 5/6 without SUSI) are very low current "not powered" functions that can be used for low power running lights and stuff that does not pull a lot of current.

 

I have a bunch of these to use in cars to control lights and provide Railcom for those trains where I have a non-Railcom friendly decoder in the motor car, and to also be able to add sound to them.

 

 

I just need to find the time to geta  lot of this stuff installed and working.

 

[gavino200]

Thank you all for your ideas and input. It'll take me a while to read them carefully, research the implication and respond. In the meantime here is a picture of the inside of the model. 

 

The little rectangular cavity toward the right is designed specifically for the Digitrax DN143k2. It looks like this decoder has what's need for all of the light functions of the Beetle. I mean that numerically. Same number for lights. I haven't yet studied the pulsating light issue. 

 

I find it hard to believe that Kato wouldn't have used this decoder for the Beetle, as it's designed to fit the RDC exactly. It also has a separate output for in car lighting. That's unusual as a decoder feature. It's also an unusual feature on the M-497 beetle. (See note below*). I think it's likely that I'll be using this decoder plus a separate decoder for sound. 

 

The M-497 has two lights in the back, but only one light in the front. The second front light from this decoder could be re-routed to the jets.

 

* The rumor/legend at Kato/USA regarding this model is that it was made as a special request for old man Kato. Their belief is that the RDC model was made essentially with this custom in mind. I don't know if that's true, but Kato seem to have gone the extra mile with this mode. For a US model (btw, I'll transfer this thread back to worldwide models when it's no longer a project) this loco has a few unusual features. It's very DCC friendly. There's a special under-floor compartment to hide a decoder. Also, there is a special decoder made just for this loco. And it seems to have exactly what's need for the M-497. I found out from Kato-USA that a second separate Decoder was used for the sound. I have a feeling that the clues to how to do this right are right there on the model if I study it enough.

 

 

[gavino200]

Also, does anyone know if it's possible to save the sound files from this YouTube video but filter out the guy's voice?

 

Edit: I think it should be possible to take some of the sounds from this video. They're played multiple times and I believe there's an example of each loop at least once without his voice. 

 

If I extract the sound and play it on Audacity or a similar program I should be able to identify the loop and snip it.

 

 

Edited July 25, 2018 by gavino200

[gavino200]

9 hours ago, kvp said:

Flickering is usually done with the firebox simulator option if the decoder in question has one, but this seems more like it's directly connected to the throttle, so parallel to the motor output (with a reverse protection diode, so it turns off when the unit is backing up on diesel power) The extra hardware is just the protection diode and the two series current limiting resistors, one for each led in each engine.

 

The light does seem to increase in brightness as the throttle is increased. That would argue for it being run directly from the motor output. But....if that were the case wouldn't you expect it to be a constant brightness for a given throttle level. In the video, the jet LED is pulsating at every level of throttle. The pulsation gradually increases in brightness as the throttle increases. 

 

Is there some other way of making this happen? Here is a link to the CV sheet for the Digitrax RDC decoder.

 

http://www.digitrax.com/media/apps/products/mobile-decoders/dn143k2/documents/Spec Sheet DN143k2.pdf

 

Could there be additional CVs not listed here? Hidden CVs?

 

I don't see a CV listed for firebox. CV 63 is "Ditch light blink hold time". 0-255 that may be the pulsation function.

 

 

 

[gavino200]

At first I though that the sounds played in concert with the throttle functions. ie full jet sound while moving - jet starting while starting etc. But it seems this isn't the case. It seems that you have to make the sounds happen by independently pressing the function buttons while driving the train. 

 

So likely the second decoder is used solely for the sound. It probably doesn't matter which decoder is used, but I'll search the model looking for obvious places for a second decoder and a speaker to be located. I wonder if they were placed on the underside of the roof. The Kato Kobo model has interior lights and there doesn't seem to be anything visible through the windows. 

[gavino200]

9 hours ago, Kiha66 said:

Digitrax decoders have remapable functions, so you just change the cv associated with that function and you can get firebox flicker fairly easily.  Check the digitrax manual for the specific cvs and values, I use it to add mars lights to US locomotives in many of my installations.

 

How about the light increasing in brightness with throttle speed? That seems very unusual. Ever heard of anything like that?

[gavino200]

7 hours ago, chadbag said:

 

There is an "interface" called SUSI which multiple (mostly Euro) manufacturers add to some of their decoders which allow a sound decoder to be added to a normal decoder.  It usually "uses up" some of the "Aux" functions on the decoder.  The D&H decoders, including their function decoder, have SUSI.  I think some ESU and others also have it.  D&H makes a function decider which is basically a DH05 without motor function -- the FH05B -- https://doehler-haass.de/cms/pages/produkte/fahrzeugdecoder/fh05b.php

 

D&H also makes a SUSI compatible stand alone sound decoder -- https://doehler-haass.de/cms/pages/produkte/soundsystem/sh10a.php as well as combo motor and sound controller decoders (I have a couople of the SD18A which have a Next18 interface and motor controller plus sound for some Fleischmann stuff I have)

 

It supports 4 functions plus SUSI plus front and rear lights or 6 functions without SUSI plus lights.  The Aux 3/4 (and 5/6 without SUSI) are very low current "not powered" functions that can be used for low power running lights and stuff that does not pull a lot of current.

 

I have a bunch of these to use in cars to control lights and provide Railcom for those trains where I have a non-Railcom friendly decoder in the motor car, and to also be able to add sound to them.

 

 

I just need to find the time to geta  lot of this stuff installed and working.

 

 

I like this approach. Having the ability to 'upgrade' later to sound is nice. I also like the idea of stand alone sound decoders. No reason why they couldn't be placed in a wagon or carriage. A good solution for locos that are already a difficult installation for motor alone. 

 

The Kobo model has 6 sounds. Though, at least two of them are of dubious value - "after burner"  (barfy static?), crossing horn, coupling. I could do without these. Especially since this loco pretty much never couples with anything. A 4 function would be fine.

[gavino200]

This is the manual.

 

http://www.digitrax.com/static/apps/cms/media/documents/documentation/decodermanual.pdf

 

Pulsation can be controlled using the FX and FX3 CVs. I still can't find anything relating to brightness varying with motor speed. I also can't think of any non jet related application for a function like that.

 

Edit: having read through the FX and remapping sections, I still don't know any more, but I've got a strong suspicion it's possible to map pulated light effects to motor output. I think I'll give Digitrax a call tomorrow and pick their brains.

 

Edited July 25, 2018 by gavino200

[chadbag]

1 minute ago, gavino200 said:

 

I like this approach. Having the ability to 'upgrade' later to sound is nice. I also like the idea of stand alone sound decoders. No reason why they couldn't be placed in a wagon or carriage. A good solution for locos that are already a difficult installation for motor alone. 

 

The Kobo model has 6 sounds. Though, at least two of them are of dubious value - "after burner"  (barfy static?), crossing horn, coupling. I could do without these. Especially since this loco pretty much never couples with anything. A 4 function would be fine.

 

 

It sounds like the SD10A from D&H can support up to 40 sounds if I am reading this right...   Have not yet implemented this.

 

 Here is the manual:

 

https://doehler-haass.de/cms/media/pdf3/SH10A_en.pdf

 

 

[gavino200]

8 minutes ago, chadbag said:

 

 

It sounds like the SD10A from D&H can support up to 40 sounds if I am reading this right...   Have not yet implemented this.

 

 Here is the manual:

 

https://doehler-haass.de/cms/media/pdf3/SH10A_en.pdf

 

 

 

That sounds like fun. With that many sounds you could add in some silly noises just for fun. I could make it squeak like a mouse to really freak out my cat. 

[gavino200]

This might be a good solution for the sound. The price is good. Pity about the giant capacitor. I have some SMD caps that I haven't used yet. Hopefully I could swap them out.

 

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of separate decoders for any sound installation. The two decoders could be stacked, avoiding the need for a long installation space. Or they could each fit in separate small spaces.

 

 

https://www.modeltrainstuff.com/digitrax-sfx006-plug-n-play-soundfx-soundbug-for-dh165xx-decoders-and-others/

 

[Kiha66]

2 hours ago, gavino200 said:

How about the light increasing in brightness with throttle speed? That seems very unusual. Ever heard of anything like that?

 

Pretty sure the only output with digitrax that does that is the motor leads.  Possibly you could route a LED in parallel with the motor with a high resistance resistor, but I'm not sure how well that would work and it probably wouldn't be advised by any manufacture.  

[kvp]

3 minutes ago, Kiha66 said:

 

Pretty sure the only output with digitrax that does that is the motor leads.  Possibly you could route a LED in parallel with the motor with a high resistance resistor, but I'm not sure how well that would work and it probably wouldn't be advised by any manufacture.  

That's what i wrote above. Just add a reverse direction protection diode in series, two leds, each with their own resistor and it will just work both in analog mode and with a decoder. As the leds don't produce backemf, the decoder won't notice them. It won't flicker though, just slightly follow the load on the motor due to the motor backemf getting added or substracted from the pwm drive signal.

 

On the other hand, the susi bus has the motor info on it, so a sushi light decoder could set its output based on the selected speed or the actual load of the motor.

[gavino200]

20 minutes ago, Kiha66 said:

 

Pretty sure the only output with digitrax that does that is the motor leads.  Possibly you could route a LED in parallel with the motor with a high resistance resistor, but I'm not sure how well that would work and it probably wouldn't be advised by any manufacture.  

 

I bet that's not it. The more I look at the video the more I actually doubt that the light is increasing proportionally with the throttle. It does seem a bit irregular. But I have another idea about what might be happening. It turns out that the rear of the train only has a red light. No white light. So the second LED from both ends must be re-routed to the jets. The Digitrax decoder manual says that the two lights can be set to pulse with different frequencies or phases. That may be what's giving the LEDs that irregular look. 

 

But if you ignore the sound and what the guy is telling you about the throttle (suggestion?), the light pulsation doesn't seem to increase or decrease much if at all. 

 

Edit: I'm wrong about the rear lights. The Kobo does have two rear lights, red and white. But on this video you don't seem to see either the flicker or any change in brightness with speed. Also the guy doesn't mention anything like that, and he does talk a bit about he jet LEDs.

 

 

Edited July 25, 2018 by gavino200

[gavino200]

This one looks like regular constant lighting for the jets too. I bet the ebay video loco is just set to "firebox". 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2018 by gavino200

[gavino200]

24 minutes ago, kvp said:

That's what i wrote above. Just add a reverse direction protection diode in series, two leds, each with their own resistor and it will just work both in analog mode and with a decoder. As the leds don't produce backemf, the decoder won't notice them. It won't flicker though, just slightly follow the load on the motor due to the motor backemf getting added or substracted from the pwm drive signal.

 

On the other hand, the susi bus has the motor info on it, so a sushi light decoder could set its output based on the selected speed or the actual load of the motor.

 

I'm becoming less convinced that there's a relation between throttle and brightness. Watch the video with the sound off. There are three phases to the apparent brightness.

1. Switch on - pulsating

2. Apparent increase in brightness at exactly 2:28 - but there's a simultaneous change in camera position. I think the apparent change in brightness may be an artifact from the camera movement. Different angle, shadow, etc.

3. When turned off it dies over about a second or so. Many LEDs seem to do this when the juice is cut.

 

What do you think?

[gavino200]

Interestingly, the loco has an interior light inside but doesn't seem to have a light diffuser. The light is mostly at the front end of the car. This may support the idea that the sound decoder and speaker may be located on the underside of the roof. That being the reason they couldn't use a diffuser.  Reasonable? Silly?

[kvp]

7 hours ago, gavino200 said:

 

I'm becoming less convinced that there's a relation between throttle and brightness. Watch the video with the sound off. There are three phases to the apparent brightness.

1. Switch on - pulsating

2. Apparent increase in brightness at exactly 2:28 - but there's a simultaneous change in camera position. I think the apparent change in brightness may be an artifact from the camera movement. Different angle, shadow, etc.

3. When turned off it dies over about a second or so. Many LEDs seem to do this when the juice is cut.

 

What do you think?

Actually that's pretty much how the PWM motor drive works in a standard decoder. First it's pulsing at a low rate (on some decoders, you can hear the motor whine), the leds are flickering (but probably only on the camera). Then it's getting a higher percent of ON time so the leds starts to light up visibly continously and then as the percent gets higher, they get brighter and the train starts to move.

 

You would get the same effect with a non CL PWM throttle. With a CL PWM thottle, there are small, higer frequency light pulses added to the motor drive signal to have the leds stay lit up when the traction PWM signal is still too low for full brightness. On a DCC decoder, this is missing as the motor outputs are usually only used for the motors. I think the setup i mentioned above would work with or without a decoder and light up with or without a CL capable throttle in analog mode. (just behave differently based on the throttle or the decoder in use)