Ordering decoders from NGDCC? (New Generation DCC)

[gavino200]

Is there a special trick to ordering from NGDCC? You don't seem to be able to directly buy on the site. Rather, they ask you to send an email with a purchase request. I did that. It's been a while now and I haven't heard back.

 

This is the decoder I want to buy.

 

http://www.snjpn.com/ngdcc/de29/de29x6_54k.htm

 

Anyone have any experience with this company? Any advice?

[Ochanomizu]

Hello,

 

I purchased 4 x Tomix track cleaning car decoders about 5 years ago.  If you used orders@ email address then try again with shuhei@ instead.

[westfalen]

I recently (about 4 weeks ago) sent and received an order via the order@snjpn.com email address, one of the decoders being the 2 function version of the one you ordered.

 

I have been getting decoders from him for a few years with no problems.  On the most recent I received an email from him to say one of the decoders I wanted was out of stock and I would have to wait a couple of weeks.

 

How long has it been since you sent your order, it sometimes does take him a little while to respond as I think he is a one man operation.

[gavino200]

No it was a long time. It must have just gotten overlooked. I sent another email over the weekend and heard back yesterday. Must have just been a fluke.

[chadbag]

I am interested in how this works out.  I want some of the bi-polar function decoders he has listed to add to my stash.

[gavino200]

5 minutes ago, chadbag said:

I am interested in how this works out.  I want some of the bi-polar function decoders he has listed to add to my stash.

 

This guy has lots of drop-in decoders for Kato locos, not available from US/Euro manufacturers.

 

Go to this link: http://www.snjpn.com/ngdcc/orderj.htm

 

Use google translate

 

Email him with the answers to his 7 questions and he'll send you the decoders. 

[chadbag]

1 minute ago, gavino200 said:

 

This guy has lots of drop-in decoders for Kato locos, not available from US/Euro manufacturers.

 

Go to this link: http://www.snjpn.com/ngdcc/orderj.htm

 

Use google translate

 

Email him with the answers to his 7 questions and he'll send you the decoders. 

 

yeah, I've looked at a bunch of his.  Besides the bi-polar, I think it was the DD13 ones I was most interested in.  But since I am trying to support RailCom with everything, I've been hesitating on decoders for stand alone locomotives that don't support RailCom.  (On something like a Shinkansen or EMU or DMU where it runs together with other cars, you can stick a RailCom capable function decoder in for lights and also get the RailCom detection for that train).

 

[gavino200]

10 minutes ago, chadbag said:

 

yeah, I've looked at a bunch of his.  Besides the bi-polar, I think it was the DD13 ones I was most interested in.  But since I am trying to support RailCom with everything, I've been hesitating on decoders for stand alone locomotives that don't support RailCom.  (On something like a Shinkansen or EMU or DMU where it runs together with other cars, you can stick a RailCom capable function decoder in for lights and also get the RailCom detection for that train).

 

 

Cool beans. I just read the following (because I forgot what railcom was - did I ever know?) 

 

https://www.locgeek.com/2012/10/railcom-railcom-plus-what-are-these/

 

I'm not sure why I'd want railcom. Doesn't seem to add anything cool or fun. What am I missing?

Edited July 10, 2018 by gavino200

[chadbag]

22 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

 

Cool beans. I just read the following (because I forgot what railcom was - did I ever know?) 

 

https://www.locgeek.com/2012/10/railcom-railcom-plus-what-are-these/

 

I'm not sure why I'd want railcom. Doesn't seem to add anything cool or fun. What am I missing?

 

It enables 2-way coms (normally DCC is one way) and locomotive detection (through the decoder reporting back its number) so if you have different blocks in your layout you can know which trains are where in the layout, etc.   I have Railcom compatible block detection from Digikeijs.  Now, I have never actually used it -- so for me it is all theoretical -- but I decided to make sure everything I get is compatible (or enough compatible, ie, if I have a Digitrax decoder in the motor car, use a RailCom compatible function decoder somewhere in the consist).

[Ochanomizu]

Hello,

 

Railcom is a proprietary feature.  Digitrax has something similar called Transponding which runs over their proprietary network, Loconet, but the system is not compatible with Railcom.  Kato decoders, manufactured by Digitrax, include Transponding.

Edited July 11, 2018 by Ochanomizu

[chadbag]

7 minutes ago, Ochanomizu said:

Hello,

 

Railcom is a proprietary feature.  Digitrax has something similar called Transponding which runs over their proprietary network, Loconet, but the system is not compatible with Railcom.  Kato decoders, manufactured by Digitrax, include Transponding.

 

Railcom is a muli-vendor standard, but not an NMRA standard (though supposedly a quasi NMRA standard;  it was never officially adopted from what I understand).  Railcom-Plus is an enhanced version of Railcom and is supported by many vendors, but not as many as basic Railcom.  Some vendors that support Railcom are D&H, ESU, Lenz, TCS, Zimo (non-exhaustive list).  Most of the European suspects plus TCS.

 

Digitrax transponding, AFAIK, is only supported by Digitrax.  KATO has their decoders made by Digitrax and they support the Digitrax transponding.

 

I have no personal experience with either, but I chose Railcom (for my stuff to be compatible with so I am ready when I get that far)  as it is supported by many vendors.  And supposedly works "better" based on various (probably biased) reports/reviews I have seen online.   Luckily TCS makes Digitrax style replacement boards for a lot of KATO stuff so I should be able to use them in place of Digitrax decoders in the board replacement type of installs.  And then the wired ones I have mostly D&H, with a Zimo and ESU.   I have a couple Digitrax wired but they are in Shinkansen or EMU so I will be able to add a D&H function decoder to a car for lights and get Railcom on those trains as well.    Same for my EM13 based trains.   If our EM13 replacement board project eventually is successful I'll be able to use D&H decoders in my EM13 trains as well.

 

YMMV and you may have other needs or wants.  I just decided I needed to pick one so that when I bought things now, even if I don't have anything implemented, I'll have all 1 standard when I get around to implementing it instead of needing to replace stuff.

 

[gavino200]

16 minutes ago, chadbag said:

 

Railcom is a muli-vendor standard, but not an NMRA standard (though supposedly a quasi NMRA standard;  it was never officially adopted from what I understand).  Railcom-Plus is an enhanced version of Railcom and is supported by many vendors, but not as many as basic Railcom.  Some vendors that support Railcom are D&H, ESU, Lenz, TCS, Zimo (non-exhaustive list).  Most of the European suspects plus TCS.

 

Digitrax transponding, AFAIK, is only supported by Digitrax.  KATO has their decoders made by Digitrax and they support the Digitrax transponding.

 

I have no personal experience with either, but I chose Railcom (for my stuff to be compatible with so I am ready when I get that far)  as it is supported by many vendors.  And supposedly works "better" based on various (probably biased) reports/reviews I have seen online.   Luckily TCS makes Digitrax style replacement boards for a lot of KATO stuff so I should be able to use them in place of Digitrax decoders in the board replacement type of installs.  And then the wired ones I have mostly D&H, with a Zimo and ESU.   I have a couple Digitrax wired but they are in Shinkansen or EMU so I will be able to add a D&H function decoder to a car for lights and get Railcom on those trains as well.    Same for my EM13 based trains.   If our EM13 replacement board project eventually is successful I'll be able to use D&H decoders in my EM13 trains as well.

 

YMMV and you may have other needs or wants.  I just decided I needed to pick one so that when I bought things now, even if I don't have anything implemented, I'll have all 1 standard when I get around to implementing it instead of needing to replace stuff.

 

 

Sounds like a logical plan. What are you planning (functionally) to do? Signalling - lights turning green as the train approaches? Audio - stations announcing specific trains? Automation? Have a big monitor displaying train names and positions?

 

Have you thought of setting up a simple oval to test your system? There's really no actual downside if you decide later you don't want to use the capability... except maybe for some minor hassle.

Edited July 11, 2018 by gavino200

[chadbag]

19 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

 

Sounds like a logical plan. What are you planning (functionally) to do? Signalling - lights turning green as the train approaches? Audio - stations announcing specific trains? Automation? Have a big monitor displaying train names and positions?

 

Have you though of setting up a simple oval to test your system? There's really no actual downside if you decide later you don't want to use the capability... except maybe for some minor hassle.

 

I don't have specific plans for I at the momentt, though some sort of automation -- if nothing else than to learn about it.  If I know which train is in which block I can automate switches, signals, whatever for that specific train -- a freight train could be sent to the right yard, an EMU to the right station, etc.  For now I will set up my simple tracks on my semi-permanent layout I will be starting this summer in my basement (we are moving in 2020 sometime, if all goes according to plan, so I will be doing lots of learning layout work on my 4x8 in the middle of my basement in our current place -- the new place will have at least one train room for me to use until I die and I'll get more elaborate then -- now is the time to test things, learn, etc.).

 

Some of the ideas you have, like station boards, sounds, etc. would be cool to automate per train.

 

I also, some day, would like to do a train control and automation iPad app and so want to be able to include that sort of functionality.   But it will be a while before I start that.  I have to finish up all the side work I am doing now and in the future months before I will be able to devote a few hours a week to it (more as it gets traction).   (My day job is doing iOS development, and this is a way to do that for me, not someone else :).

 

Like you said, there really is no downside to making sure stuff I get is Railcom compatible, as if I decide to not use that capability, there is really no loss.  I'd be buying most of the equipment in some form anyway (decoders, block detectors [non railcom], etc)

 

Besides the locgeek link here is another (probably older) explanatory link.  https://dccwiki.com/Term:RailCom

 

ETA:  being. tinkerer and tech-head, it is the kind of thing I read about and said:  that is cool, I want to do that!  with no specific plan in mind beforehand.

Edited July 11, 2018 by chadbag

[Ochanomizu]

51 minutes ago, chadbag said:

 

Railcom is a muli-vendor standard ...

 

Digitrax transponding, AFAIK, is only supported by Digitrax. ...

 

 

As I said before, Railcom is a proprietary technology.  Railcom© & RailcomPlus© are trademarks of Lenz Elektronik GmbH & Electronic Solutions Ulm GmbH & Co. KG.  Other vendors pay a license to use the tech. 

 

Loconet is a similar proprietary tech.  licensed to Digitrax.  There are several versions of Loconet, just as Lenz has several versions of Railcom.  Other vendors pay a license to use Loconet: Kato, Uhlenbrock,  CML, RR Cir-Kits, Digikeijs, Team Digital,  Railroad and Co, iTrain, and a bunch of others.

 

Edit: you are correct in that NMRA has registered Railcom as Standard 9.3.2, back in 2012 ... I predate that event by some years .... the standard is currently being revised.  Six years down the track and Digitrax still retains a huge market share with its Loconet, as well as its base of licensed vendors.  Obviously, Standard 9.3.2 doesn't carry much weight.

Edited July 11, 2018 by Ochanomizu
Correction regarding Railcom Standard

[kvp]

One thing is that Loconet is free for hobbist use, which means it became the Fremo standard, which is followed by most manufacturers who don't want its products excluded from use by most european clubs.

 

Railcom transponding is a nice technology, but requires power buffers and special boosters with communication gaps and it's hard to impmenent in a small size due to that decoder has to drive the rails and through this all other decoders and dumb loads from its own power buffer to communicate. On the other hand, Digitrax transponding in a decoder is just a software rule to blink the main headlights in reaction to certain DCC packets. This is easily interpretable by any traction current monitoring circuit and is happily ignored by everything else. This means implementing it does not require any new components and all motor and accessory decoders with a switchable non magnetic load (like lights) could use them. The downside is that only decoders directly addressed can respond and only with an anknowledge. This does not allow true bidirectional communication. (in theory this could be extended to allow special data read packets or even address discovery packets, but no such implementations exists)

 

I would like to add that Railcom transponding cutouts or mixed DCC/SX data flow causes problems with many decoders and even with some boosters that lack tri state drivers. The reason is that with classic DCC signalling, track power must not be fully removed even for a brief time.

[chadbag]

Loconet is not Digitrax transponding.    I don't know why loconet is involved in this discussion.  loconet is a separate network that does not run on the track power used to run the trains and send DCC commands to the trains.

 

From what I have read, almost no one really uses Digitrax transponding and it does not work all that well.  (Of course there are some people invested in it -- just reading from blogs on people who have tried it or looked at the market for it).   Loconet on the other hand is used by lots and lots of people, including many who support Railcom.  Railcom has much greater support than does Digitrax transponding for an on-track communications "standard".   

 

I have no personal experience with either, but all the things I have read says that Railcom has no effect on traditional DCC as the cutouts are too short to disrupt it and normal decoders ignore it.   There may be some troublesome decoders out there that have problems, but in principle, it is claimed, there should not be any with properly implemented decoders.  Again, I am just parroting the propaganda.

 

And I have bought a command station (and soon a booster with my eBay bucks) that support Railcom -- from Digikeijs.

 

 

Edited July 11, 2018 by chadbag

[gavino200]

10 hours ago, chadbag said:

 

will have at least one train room

 

This cracks me up. I love it!

 

10 hours ago, chadbag said:

 

I also, some day, would like to do a train control and automation iPad app and so want to be able to include that sort of functionality.   But it will be a while before I start that.  I have to finish up all the side work I am doing now and in the future months before I will be able to devote a few hours a week to it (more as it gets traction).   (My day job is doing iOS development, and this is a way to do that for me, not someone else :).

 

Like an iPad 'Densha de Go', where you drive on your own layout using a camera car. That would be cool. You could drive the train from another room, while other people set up obstacles for you, like a vehicle on the tracks. Or you could go round a bend and have a Shinkansen running strait toward you. They could really freak you out!

 

10 hours ago, chadbag said:

 

Like you said, there really is no downside to making sure stuff I get is Railcom compatible, as if I decide to not use that capability, there is really no loss.  I'd be buying most of the equipment in some form anyway (decoders, block detectors [non railcom], etc)

 

Besides the locgeek link here is another (probably older) explanatory link.  https://dccwiki.com/Term:RailCom

 

ETA:  being. tinkerer and tech-head, it is the kind of thing I read about and said:  that is cool, I want to do that!  with no specific plan in mind beforehand.

 

I actually wired my layout for future addition of block detection. But the isolated joiners caused light flicker which really bugged me so I took them out. I'm not going to put them back in until I figure out how to add capacitors to each railcar. The isolators are also ugly but they could be painted. 

[kvp]

19 hours ago, chadbag said:

Loconet is not Digitrax transponding.    I don't know why loconet is involved in this discussion.  loconet is a separate network that does not run on the track power used to run the trains and send DCC commands to the trains.

 

From what I have read, almost no one really uses Digitrax transponding and it does not work all that well.  (Of course there are some people invested in it -- just reading from blogs on people who have tried it or looked at the market for it).   Loconet on the other hand is used by lots and lots of people, including many who support Railcom.  Railcom has much greater support than does Digitrax transponding for an on-track communications "standard".   

 

I have no personal experience with either, but all the things I have read says that Railcom has no effect on traditional DCC as the cutouts are too short to disrupt it and normal decoders ignore it.   There may be some troublesome decoders out there that have problems, but in principle, it is claimed, there should not be any with properly implemented decoders.  Again, I am just parroting the propaganda.

 

And I have bought a command station (and soon a booster with my eBay bucks) that support Railcom -- from Digikeijs.

Loconet is a Digitrax invented standard, pretty much like their transponding system. The transponding works well if your wiring is not too noisy. It's just using the load change of the headlight blink to signal an acknowledge, very much how standard programming mode uses the motor as a load for the same purpose.

 

Railcom works nicely for bidirectional communication, but it requires buffer capacitors on the decoders, which many simply don't have. Also any capacitor equipped rolling stock without a decoder effectively swallows the signal (good examples are lighted rolling stock without proper filtering circuits) The bigger problem is that many boosters (like the Fremo Spax series and most CDE ones) don't support it. The problem lies in the Loconet standard, where the two side wires, namely RailSync + and RailSync - are carrying the DCC signal in a low voltage (7-12V), low current (max. 250-500 mA) form. Any booster running off Loconet can only support the Railcom cutouts with some software/hardware hacking to detect a normally illegal waveform (like a high-high) as a cutout (low-low is output disable, high-low and low-high are normal DCC). Spax boosters detect each cutout as a RailSync loss event.

 

The only boosters that do support Railcom are the ones that could operate as DCC and as SX / Marklin boosters at the same time as the SX protocol has a pause signal, when rail power is cut. Driving non compatible boosters with Railcom cutout signals often work though, in case of the Fremo Spax, it only disables the short circuit protection as the cutouts prevent it from sensing a low resistance short. (something above 0 ohm, but below 4 ohms) So Railcom works, but not really safe to use with these boosters. Of course a central that supports standalone Loconet for the cab bus, but uses a different, cutout supporting booster bus could actually support both, but this means we loose Loconet booster capability.

 

ps: I've studied both Loconet and Xpress-net and both have their pros and cons. Loconet is sensitive to data corruption on very large installs, while Xpress-net simply could not support them at all due to protocol limitations. For larger networks, the newer standard seems to be the LCB (layout control bus), that is based on the CAN standard has options for adding RailSync support for boosters, but afaik it's far from final (like having a fixed connector standard) and has its own issues.

 

EDIT: fixed a typo and added an extra line to Digitrax transponding

Edited July 12, 2018 by kvp

[Ochanomizu]

Hello,

 

Thanks kvp, who is obviously more knowledgeable than I.

 

I have no trouble with Digitrax transponding, except for the huge amount of wiring I had to do for the BDL's and RX4's.  Perhaps my trouble-free experience is due to 100% of my decoders being Digitrax or Kato.

[gavino200]

Received my decoder. Excellent service, prompt mailing, perfect fit, easy install with the exception of transplanting tiny LEDs. Would recommend this manufacturer. 

 

No idea what happened the first time.

[chadbag]

I must give thumbs up to NGDCC.

 

My wife was just in Japan for a short trip to see her ailing mother.  She was there over the New Years holidays.  I emailed NGDCC and asked if they could send 10 of the bipolar function decoders to her at her sister's house in Kobe.  After a few days I got a reply that said we are actually closed through Jan 6, but he would send them out for me.  I paid, he sent, and she got them on Jan 5 (a day later).  In time to bring them back.  So even though he was closed for the holidays, he went out of his way to help me.  That is excellent service.   I'll be going back.

 

[cteno4]

That’s super service! Nice to hear.

 

jeff

Edited January 9, 2019 by cteno4

[gavino200]

2 hours ago, chadbag said:

I must give thumbs up to NGDCC.

 

My wife was just in Japan for a short trip to see her ailing mother.  She was there over the New Years holidays.  I emailed NGDCC and asked if they could send 10 of the bipolar function decoders to her at her sister's house in Kobe.  After a few days I got a reply that said we are actually closed through Jan 6, but he would send them out for me.  I paid, he sent, and she got them on Jan 5 (a day later).  In time to bring them back.  So even though he was closed for the holidays, he went out of his way to help me.  That is excellent service.   I'll be going back.

 

 

That's great Chat. I'll also be really interested in hearing about your experience with the bipolar functions decoders. 

[cteno4]

Sometimes they are hyper and sometimes hard to just get them to turn on...

 

jeff