New Berlin S-Bahn - I like it!

[gavino200]

Video below from TV.Berlin. Its an interesting design. Not quite like anything I've seen before. It's both functional and playful looking. Almost like a toy. A 'postmodern' look maybe? I thin it looks very cool. Audio is in German, but the video shows the train fairly well. 

 

 

[gavino200]

Oops, this was supposed to be in Worldwide Rail. Can someone move it?

 

[bill937ca]

But it doesn't look that different from current trains.

 

http://ifs-design.de/en/references/s-bahn-berlin/

 

The boxy shape may mean simpler construction and capital  lower costs.

 

More articles on the new Stadler / Siemens trains.

 

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/europe/s-bahn-berlin-confirms-ring-lines-rolling-stock-order.html

 

http://www.metro-report.com/news/single-view/view/stadler-siemens-consortium-rolls-out-first-berlin-s-bahn-train.html

Edited July 3, 2018 by bill937ca

[gavino200]

1 minute ago, bill937ca said:

But it doesn't look that different from current trains.

 

http://ifs-design.de/en/references/s-bahn-berlin/

 

The boxy shape may mean simpler construction and capital  lower costs.

 

I think it's significantly different. I'd be willing to bet that the look has nothing to do with costs and everything to do with design. But I don't know that. Maybe I just like to bet. 🙂

 

[bill937ca]

I see an unusual low profile on both trains.

 

 

Edited July 3, 2018 by bill937ca

[gavino200]

I agree. They're both interesting. And there's definitely continuity. 

[kvp]

7 hours ago, bill937ca said:

The boxy shape may mean simpler construction and capital lower costs.

The loading gauge is given and this train uses as much of it as possible. The sbahn is 3rd rail and has more to do with the metro than in most cities. One nice feature is the use of plug doors, which greatly simplifies car construction and maximizes inner space. The low platform height comes from the original sbahn cars and is kept since then.

 

In short, imho this is a greatly simplified and space/maintenance optimised design compared to the previous generation. And the look is as traditional as possible, except the lone black band around the cab sides. Btw. the front reminds me of old east german metro stock.

[Khaul]

If anything it looks less postmodern to me than the previous series.

[gavino200]

7 hours ago, Khaul said:

If anything it looks less postmodern to me than the previous series.

Interesting. So is postmodern over? That makes sense. That was “the thing” back when I was in college. That’s a long time ago, I guess. I’m an old fart now. Is there a name for the current style/philosophy/movement? 

[kvp]

2 hours ago, gavino200 said:

Interesting. So is postmodern over? That makes sense. That was “the thing” back when I was in college. That’s a long time ago, I guess. I’m an old fart now. Is there a name for the current style/philosophy/movement? 

I would call it industrial design. A kind of  manufacturing price/maintenance cost optimized design.

 

Btw., you won't belive this but it looks like the black band around the front is less of a design element and more like the mounting ring for the front cover. Just look at the finished shell with the front still missing:

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wagenkasten_DB-Baureihe_483-484.jpg

The whole front assembly is just snapped onto the train like on a mobile phone. This was used in Japan before (less visible though) but it's very uncommon on european rolling stock, where the front was traditionally part of the main shell structure.

[Khaul]

8 hours ago, gavino200 said:

Interesting. So is postmodern over? That makes sense. That was “the thing” back when I was in college. That’s a long time ago, I guess. I’m an old fart now. Is there a name for the current style/philosophy/movement? 

 

I wouldn't say postmodernism is over at all! Although most leading architects sort of went back to modernity and that was the end of High Postmodernism, what we can call popular postmodern styles are alive and well. Particularly the US is quite stuck in the kind of unintentional postmodernism the architects and designers of the 80s wanted to imitate (i.e. Venturi's "Learning from Vegas"). For instance, most free standing houses are built in pseudo-historical styles. Even apartment buildings don't scape from arches and cornices. Strip malls are just one decorated shed after another. Denver Union station, which indeed brings a huge improvement for the city, has a lot of postmodern elements as well.

 

..and in Japan we've got good old Eiji Mitooka.

[Suica]

I love the look. Quite a daringly modern design which isn't seen that often among German rolling stock. I feel like Stadler took some design elements from their Berlin U-Bahn class IK, namely the black glass front, LED light strips and black-framed doors with large window surfaces.

The thing I'm most interested in though is the ride comfort, as the BR 481 with its jerky acceleration and braking is simply horrible.

[MichiK]

Nahh... still like the series 480 best - or the really old stuff!

[kvp]

4 hours ago, MichiK said:

Nahh... still like the series 480 best - or the really old stuff!

My favourite (the 477 series, a rebuilt 167 series):

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:S-bahn_berlin.jpg

Maybe i like these because they are nice simple trains and maybe because these were running when i was first in Berlin...

[Socimi]

Long live the  DR Baureihe 270 (DBAG 485)!

[Suica]

2 hours ago, Socimi said:

Long live the  DR Baureihe 270 (DBAG 485)!

Personally, I think that these and the ex BVG BR 480 are the best ones running right now.

The biggest advantage of the BR 480 are that it has four instead of just three doors. Unfortunately they'll continue the three door mistake with the BR 484. I also think it's time to finally change to longitudal bench seats (at least for the ring lines).

[MichiK]

3 hours ago, Socimi said:

Long live the  DR Baureihe 270 (DBAG 485)!

 

Well, then... ET 182 !!!

 

 

(though, technically, that wasn't not a Berlin S-Bahn... anymore)

Edited July 11, 2018 by MichiK

[Socimi]

4 hours ago, Suica said:

 

The biggest advantage of the BR 485 are that it has four instead of just three doors. Unfortunately they'll continue the three door mistake with the BR 484.

 

I think it's because they want to standardize rolling stock; just like what JR West did for the Osaka Loop Line, with the 323 series (a derivative of the local lines' 225 series) wich has 3 doors instead of 4 of the 201 and 103 series, better suited for urban operations.

Vice-versa JR East replaced the 3-door 113 and 115 on local and rural lines with the 4-door refurbished 205 and 209 series trains.

 

Also, intrestingly enough, i found out that the West German designed Br 480 (and it's successor, the Br 481) actually shares most of it's technical specs with the trains of the Munich and Nurenberg U-Bahns (also West Germany) such as the 18m lenght, 3.6m height, 3m width, 750V DC power collection from bottom-contact third rail and of course, the three doors per side, while the East German Br 485 has the same specs (4 doors, same dimensions as before) of the East Berlin U-Bahn Großprofil lines EIII stock (wich was in turn converted from pre-war era S-Bahn stock).

 

This means that you technically could run both the U-Bahn Großprofil lines and the S-Bahn lines with the same type of train.

 

Edited July 11, 2018 by Socimi

[Suica]

44 minutes ago, Socimi said:

This means that you technically could run both the U-Bahn Großprofil lines and the S-Bahn lines with the same type of train.   

Little modifications are still needed though. The contact shoes and train stop trip cocks are different.

[kvp]

45 minutes ago, Socimi said:

This means that you technically could run both the U-Bahn Großprofil lines and the S-Bahn lines with the same type of train.

The only structural difference i could find is the that the U-Bahn Grosprofil uses 16 meter cars, while the S-Bahn has 18 meter ones and the bogie distances are differnt (9.5 vs 12 m). This results in a different loading gauge requirement in tighter curves.

[Socimi]

13 hours ago, kvp said:

The only structural difference i could find is the that the U-Bahn Grosprofil uses 16 meter cars, while the S-Bahn has 18 meter ones and the bogie distances are differnt (9.5 vs 12 m). This results in a different loading gauge requirement in tighter curves.

 

East Berlin EIII 18m trains and West Berlin 16m trains actually ran togheter on the same line in the late '80s-early '90s when the BVB (East Berlin transportation company) bought 98 units of the BVG's (it's West Berlin counterpart) baurehie D for the U5 line extesion to Elsterwader Platz in 1988 and to Honow in 1989.

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/19900918m_Wuhletal.jpg/800px-19900918m_Wuhletal.jpg

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BVG_Class_D#Class_D

[kvp]

5 hours ago, Socimi said:

 

East Berlin EIII 18m trains and West Berlin 16m trains actually ran togheter on the same line in the late '80s-early '90s when the BVB (East Berlin transportation company) bought 98 units of the BVG's (it's West Berlin counterpart) baurehie D for the U5 line extesion to Elsterwader Platz in 1988 and to Honow in 1989.

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/19900918m_Wuhletal.jpg/800px-19900918m_Wuhletal.jpg

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BVG_Class_D#Class_D

Yes, the shorter length cars with shorter bogie distances could potentially run on the lines designed for the longer cars. It's the opposite that could cause problems. This is so, since the external (car end) overhang is roughly the same at around 3 meters from the bogie centers, only the internal (car middle) overhang differs between 16/9.5 and 18/12 cars. I don't know if this 2.5 meters ever mattered and if the lines had any tight curves where this could have caused an issue.

 

For the conventional railway lines, the difference between the newer 26.5 meters and the older 19 to 21 meters stock did result in several route restrictions for the more modern, longer cars. One example (although in Hungary) where this still stands is the Suburban HEV lines around Budapest, where rounded nose Desiro railcars (20.8 meters x 2) and most 4 axle diesel locomotives fit into the curve loading gauge built for the suburban EMU sets (18 meters, square ends), but modern passenger cars and multiple units above 20 meters don't. The straight section loading gauge is the same for all of them.

[bill937ca]

In a related move, automation is coming for Hamburg S-Bahn.

 

http://www.metro-report.com/news/technology/single-view/view/hamburg-s-bahn-automation-agreement-signed-1.html

[Socimi]

14 hours ago, bill937ca said:

In a related move, automation is coming for Hamburg S-Bahn.

 

http://www.metro-report.com/news/technology/single-view/view/hamburg-s-bahn-automation-agreement-signed-1.html

 

Intresting. This could be one of the first mainline (non-metro) applications of semi-automatic operation in Europe.