ID-ing an unknown coupling

[GDorsett]

Someone in the welcome section said I should post a picture of this, so here it is. Sorry for poor quality, my phone's camera is the only broken surface and I haven't been able to get it fixed yet.

This is an older Kato C11 steamer. No idea what the item number is, but there's a big "2002" on the box, so I assume that's what it is. Payed 40 USD for it on EBay. It runs, needs some goosing sometimes, but it does run. Directional headlights.

Anyways, uknown coupler on the back that looks like a squished knuckle. Hoping to replace it with the standard square one (Seen it called both an Arnold and a Rapido. Not sure which is correct) or getting another one of these to run a "transition car".

[Kiha66]

That's kato's knuckle coupler.  I converted most of my fleet to them, so I can send you the rapido/Arnold type if you'd like to replace it. 

Edited April 4, 2018 by Kiha66

[chadbag]

1 minute ago, Kiha66 said:

That's kato's knuckle coupler.  I converted most of my fleet to them, so I can send you the rapido/Arnold type if you'd like to replace it. 

 

What do the KATO "Rapido" style look like on the end that goes into the locomotive?   I have not taken a coupler off a locomotive, but  my EF58 "Test Paint" set did not come with the Rapido installed, unlike most of the locomotives I have from KATO, but has the same KATO knuckle coupler installed.  I have never changed one and am not familiar with the process or what I need (or may have lying around).

 

[Kiha66]

1 minute ago, chadbag said:

 

What do the KATO "Rapido" style look like on the end that goes into the locomotive?   I have not taken a coupler off a locomotive, but  my EF58 "Test Paint" set did not come with the Rapido installed, unlike most of the locomotives I have from KATO, but has the same KATO knuckle coupler installed.  I have never changed one and am not familiar with the process or what I need (or may have lying around).

 

So that depends on the locomotive.  Older ones  (like the c11 above) take the same coupler as freight cars, which is kato part 11-702.  Newer locomotives take one of two replacement couplers, one that is for models with a brass strip as a sting, and another type for models that use a spring with a nub on the coupler.  When I get home today I can take pictures of each.  Most modern Kato locos come with both sets in the box so the user can choose whether to use rapido or knuckle. 

[chadbag]

 

Unfortunately these did not come with other couplers in the box.  The set was "new" but is an older set (10-260).  I don't know if it is easier to swap out on one end of the EF58 or to swap on a car and make a conversion car.   For now I am sticking with Rapidos as they are universal, and I don't have the time to mess with all my rolling stock ;)

 

Here are some pics of one of the EF58 and its couplers on one end.  And from one of my cars (not prototypical with the EF58 but as these are "test paint" EF58 anyway, I am using cars that "look good" with them).  And from the instruction sheet that came with the EF58 on the coupler.

 

[GDorsett]

So, should I try to replace the engine's coupling with a Rapido or should I get another one of these knucles and find a WaMu to put both styles on?

[GDorsett]

And, KiHa66, I have a couple Rapidos I can use, I just can't seem ot figure out how to get this coupler box apart to get the knuckle out.

[chadbag]

4 minutes ago, GDorsett said:

So, should I try to replace the engine's coupling with a Rapido or should I get another one of these knucles and find a WaMu to put both styles on?

 

I think whatever is easiest :)   Given the issue with figuring out the locomotive coupler box, maybe updating a WaMu as a conversion car would be easier.

 

[kvp]

Just a bit of info: Arnold was the manufacturer and Rapido was the brand for their N scale which used it first. This is the only common standard between japanese manufacturers. From the more prototypical couplers, each major brand has its own variant.

[Kiha66]

41 minutes ago, chadbag said:

 

Unfortunately these did not come with other couplers in the box.  The set was "new" but is an older set (10-260).  I don't know if it is easier to swap out on one end of the EF58 or to swap on a car and make a conversion car.   For now I am sticking with Rapidos as they are universal, and I don't have the time to mess with all my rolling stock ;)

 

Here are some pics of one of the EF58 and its couplers on one end.  And from one of my cars (not prototypical with the EF58 but as these are "test paint" EF58 anyway, I am using cars that "look good" with them).  And from the instruction sheet that came with the EF58 on the coupler.

 To switch the coupler you need to pull that plow piece under the coupler forward, it should unclip and you can drop in the rapido coupler instead. 

 

37 minutes ago, GDorsett said:

So, should I try to replace the engine's coupling with a Rapido or should I get another one of these knucles and find a WaMu to put both styles on?

 

35 minutes ago, GDorsett said:

And, KiHa66, I have a couple Rapidos I can use, I just can't seem ot figure out how to get this coupler box apart to get the knuckle out.

 

Either work, I know removing the knuckle is much harder than I expected, but it can be done.  Usually I try to spread the left side of coupler box and rotate the knuckle to get it out, but I bent quite a few knuckles before I got it down.  Making a transition car is probably the easiest approach, although it does limit your operational flexability a bit. 

[GDorsett]

once I get the knuckle out, is it relatively simple to get a Rapido into it?

Still a newbie at N scale, so not sure what I'm working with here.

[Kiha66]

Yep, getting the rapido in is fairly simple.  You just insert it in sideways, then twist it into position.  If the coupler box takes a spring you can insert that in after you insert the coupler.

[GDorsett]

Okay, then. I'll go dig up a couple and see what come of it.

[chadbag]

1 hour ago, Kiha66 said:

 To switch the coupler you need to pull that plow piece under the coupler forward, it should unclip and you can drop in the rapido coupler instead. 

 

@GDorsett  Sorry to hijack your thread.

 

I had some "industry standard" Rapido couplers I got in 50-pack bulk for a few bucks on eBay and was able to use your instructions and careful examination to get the knuckle out and a Rapido in, which seems to fit, though it looks a little different on the internal side to the knuckle.  Seems to be fine.  Thanks!  My Ef58 clan will be able to pull whatever Japanese or European coaches I have, which are all Rapido at the moment.  Also my freight cars.

 

 

[chadbag]

Actually I spoke too soon.  The Rapido I have are too "floppy".  It looked like it was right but when I tried to hook it up, it got floppy on me and slips out from underneath the car's Rapido.  I need to find some Rapido made for KATO.

[Kiha66]

2 minutes ago, chadbag said:

Actually I spoke too soon.  The Rapido I have are too "floppy".  It looked like it was right but when I tried to hook it up, it got floppy on me and slips out from underneath the car's Rapido.  I need to find some Rapido made for KATO.

 

Did you add the coupler spring too?  If you need some Kato couplers and springs I can send you some, I have a huge stock of them.

[chadbag]

2 minutes ago, Kiha66 said:

 

Did you add the coupler spring too?  If you need some Kato couplers and springs I can send you some, I have a huge stock of them.

 

The knuckle did not  have a spring in it so no, I did not add a spring with the Rapido.  I am not sure how much a spring (like I see in the car -- behind the Rapido) would help since the floppiness is up and down, and it is pretty tight front to back.  I'll PM you.  Thanks.

 

[GDorsett]

Picked up a YO-5000 caboose that had floppy couplers, but it did not come with springs and only seems to flop upwards. Definitly an odd design.

[railsquid]

Unfortunately Kato seem to take pleasure in creating locomotive-specific couplers; the Arnold coupler for the EF58 is part number Z01-0281 http://www.e-katomodels2.com/shop/g/gZ01-0281/ .

Edited April 4, 2018 by railsquid

[Kiha66]

17 minutes ago, railsquid said:

Unfortunately Kato seem to take pleasure in creating locomotive-specific couplers; the Arnold coupler for the EF58 is part number Z01-0281 http://www.e-katomodels2.com/shop/g/gZ01-0281/ .

 

Actually that one is a standard, although it is mostly used on steam locomotives.  There are only three types of kato knuckle couplers, no spring, coil spring, and brass strip.  That is the rapido replacement for the coil spring type.  Kato's EF58s use different versions depending on the age, the older ones using just the coil spring without the center hole (the freight car version), while the newer ones use the coil spring with a center hole (the ones you find on the new steam locomotives).  The brass strip is seen on kato's diesels and electric locomotives. 

[Kiha66]

2 hours ago, GDorsett said:

Picked up a YO-5000 caboose that had floppy couplers, but it did not come with springs and only seems to flop upwards. Definitly an odd design.

 

All of Katos two axle freight cars use a coupler box that is designed for that, its loose enough the coupler can move to couple or follow corners, while supported on the bottom so the coupler does not drop lower than horizontal and accidentally uncouple.  IIMHO its not a bad design as it doesnt need a spring and is easy to convert to the simple knuckle version (11-702). 

[GDorsett]

Ah, interesting.

Never dealt with two axle stock before in any scale other than a few Bobber cabooses I was using as shoving platforms in HO.

[GDorsett]

I purchased a pair of WaMu cars and a set of those knuckles. Hopefully I'll finally be able to use that C11.

 

And got an EF510-500 in Hokutosei, as well. I wanna put it next to my HO version to take a picture.