Tram line plan

[kvp]

3 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

Is it possible to use as a power source, the output from a DCC decoder? The input to the decoder could come from the (now completely unused) power bus that used to power my small yard (now abandoned). That way the line would have it's own designated short protection. And the DC trams could be controlled from the Digitrax cab, just like the DCC trains.

Yes, as long as you use the turnouts for polarity matching the tracks. Just set the decoder to 32 kHz PWM, no backemf and add a series polyfuse to each track feed wire. (32 kHz to protect coreless motors, no backemf to support trams with multiple motors and lights and the polyfuses for output short protection)

[Kiha66]

Yep, it uses powered switches but is otherwise the same.

[gavino200]

2 minutes ago, kvp said:

Yes, as long as you use the turnouts for polarity matching the tracks. Just set the decoder to 32 kHz PWM, no backemf and add a series polyfuse to each track feed wire. (32 kHz to protect coreless motors, no backemf to support trams with multiple motors and lights and the polyfuses for output short protection)

Do I need the polyfuse if I already have a Digitrax short protector on the line giving input to the decoder?

 

Also, is there a particular decoder you'd recommend for this? It could be giant as it'll be under the table anyway.

[gavino200]

25 minutes ago, kvp said:

Actually you don't need a relay for polarity as the Tomix turnouts will handle exactly that and then the light trams won't have to cut the blades mechanically. No isolation needed either. (=less derailments and stalls)

 

The arduino could be replaced with and edge triggered set/reset flip flop or a relay (if you add a TTL input transistor driver to the TCS sensor output) and by using a series capacitor to ground the turnouts could be controlled by switching 12V or gnd to them. The arduino just makes the construction less solder intensive as everything could be bought assembled, just add 12V to the arduino. (TCS sensors are 5V TTL and can only drive digital logic circuit inputs without overloading)

 

ps: The 140mm minimum is needed by all modemo, some dauphin and longer tomytec trams to not bind in the curves as you can't file down the curvature of the rails. 103 mm will cut the rolling stock options roughly in half.

In the second paragraph, are you talking about the azactrax circuit? Is it arduino based?

 

Regarding the 103R turns, I was basing my assumption on a quote from you stating that the problem was caused by the center plastic rather than the rail.  Did that relate only to the Kato portram? Do you know anyone who has tried the modemo/dauphin trams on 103 or are we going on manufacturer's recommendations? Just curious.

Edited February 13, 2018 by gavino200

[gavino200]

28 minutes ago, kvp said:

 

In your design, what exactly is the processor? What does the sensor plug into? What gives an output to the Tomix switch?

 

Is it an Arduino? If so is there a site or blog you know of with exact instructions on how to set it up for this exact setup? Without breadcrumbs I'm lost in the woods.

 

Or is it the Tomix system you have in mind?

Edited February 13, 2018 by gavino200

[inobu]

I completely forgot about this. Kiha drawing reminded me. I did the wiring for an outdoor layout this Christmas and had to use this unit. The documentation is a bit

convoluted but it worked. This will work automatically. You can adjust the speed and slow stop. It uses magnets sensors.   

 

http://rr-concepts.com/images/pdf/yardmaster_5manual.pdf

 

Look on  page 35.

 

Inobu

 

I should add. Page 35 shows the powering. Then page 37 shows the sensor wiring.

 

Edited February 13, 2018 by inobu

[inobu]

It uses the power from the transformer and the yardmaster is the controller. It will handle all of the reverse switching. It was for a G Scale layout but

I did the mock up using my n scale switcher. Like I said the directions are hard to read and the programing is primitive but bottom line it did work.

 

Inobu

 

http://www.rr-concepts.com/ap3.shtml

 

 

Edited February 13, 2018 by inobu

[inobu]

Let me explain this. It took me a while to get it.

These are the two primary images. The top one is how you make the wire power connections. bottom is the sensor that throw the switches.

The wire show which side of the gap they are suppose to be on. The unit can detect shorts and will shut down.

 

The unit controls the DMZ (center section) The transformer controls the outer loop.

This has all of the programming you just have to configure it.

 

 

Like I said its a pain but it works.

 

Inobu

Edited February 13, 2018 by inobu

[kvp]

1 hour ago, gavino200 said:

Do I need the polyfuse if I already have a Digitrax short protector on the line giving input to the decoder?

The motor outputs are usually not protected against shorts. If your short protection is behind the drive ic, then the ic would blow first. In this case your protection will only protect for shorts on the power bus.

 

For decoders, most digitrax N or H0 decoders would do and modern ones have the programmable options i mentioned above. (some of the european ones don't have them)

[kvp]

20 minutes ago, inobu said:

The top one is how you make the wire power connections. bottom is the sensor that throw the switches.

It's enough to throw the turnouts, they will take care of the polarity. (just power one of the loops only) this makes the wiring more simple.

 

TCS sensor pinout:

-open collector output for direction A

-common ground

-open collector output for direction B

(pullups must be in the control logic, for DCC tie Aand B together)

[inobu]

2 minutes ago, kvp said:

It's enough to throw the turnouts, they will take care of the polarity. (just power one of the loops only) this makes the wiring more simple.

 

TCS sensor pinout:

-open collector output for direction A

-common ground

-open collector output for direction B

(pullups must be in the control logic, for DCC tie Aand B together)

The green wires handles that. This unit typically runs LGB as I said I mocked it up with my Kato stuff.

This one is straight DC.

I got called out to install this for a Christmas display. I know it works. A pain but it works. 

 

Inobu

 

[kvp]

1 hour ago, gavino200 said:

Regarding the 103R turns, I was basing my assumption on a quote from you stating that the problem was caused by the center plastic rather than the rail.  Did that relate only to the Kato portram? Do you know anyone who has tried the modemo/dauphin trams on 103 or are we going on manufacturer's recommendations? Just curious.

I test my trams on 103, 140, 150 and 177 (tomix, tomix, kato and tomix). Some of the drive mechs or the bogies bind on 103 mm curves. It's not the plastic in the road but the screw drives in the chassis that can't turn enough. This is why 140 is the common minimum for trams. I have both modemo and dauphine ones that bind or lift a bogie going through 103 curves. (standard ones, not street track)

 

ps: Many modemos could go through 103 mm but some you have to file a bit from the frame and they growl loudly while grinding their gears, imho it's not worth it. On the other hand longer multisection tomytecs bind at their articulation below 140mm and simply derail.

[kvp]

1 minute ago, inobu said:

The green wires handles that. This unit typically runs LGB as I said I mocked it up with my Kato stuff.

This one is straight DC.

I got called out to install this for a Christmas display. I know it works. A pain but it works. 

Just use tomix turnouts and replace the buttons with the TCS sensors. And don't install the power control part, it's not needed. (but the turnout control output must be set to impulse only or you'll burn the turnouts)

[inobu]

1 minute ago, kvp said:

Just use tomix turnouts and replace the buttons with the TCS sensors. And don't install the power control part, it's not needed. (but the turnout control output must be set to impulse only or you'll burn the turnouts)

I told you I mocked it up with Kato stuff. That includes the switches. FYI LGB switches are solenoids as well.

 

Inobu

[inobu]

The biggest pain is the directions. They are convoluted and counting the blinking LED for programming is a PIA.

Its good for people who just want to get it done.

Inobu

[kvp]

4 minutes ago, inobu said:

I told you I mocked it up with Kato stuff. That includes the switches. FYI LGB switches are solenoids as well.

Kato turnouts are not fully power routing, they don't isolate and switch the outer rails. Also Kato doesn't manufacture classic track sensors either.

 

Tomix does both, so it's easier to use the off the shelf components. Especially if you don't have to add isolators and extra feeders. It just works.

[inobu]

Its unfortunate.

This is all Kato track and switches. The whole yard utilizes power routing. How do I know. I built it. 

 

 

 

Inobu

Edited February 13, 2018 by inobu

[kvp]

There is a difference between simple power routing and full power routing. The latter could be used for reversing loops and wyes without extra isolation. The simple power routing just cuts one rail and only good for stopping trains.

[kvp]

I think this might be more relevant

(my setup):

 

[inobu]

Everyone may not want to swap their track to Tomix. Some people may some may not. For some reason you think your way is the only solution. There are many

way to address a problem. Ok you figured it out with Tomix. What is a guy running Atlas track going to do.

 

The RRConcept allows one to use their existing track to achieve the reversing, station stopping and other features. Tomix, Ardino or JMRI may not be for everyone. 

 

I found out about RR Concepts because a customer wanted to use. I said ok and did it. There were easier ways to do it but he had 3 or 4 of the Station Masters and wanted to use it.

It was troublesome but it worked. Its all about knowledge base.

 

That why I have Digitrax, NCE, MRC, ESU and DCC Specitalties. You never know what someone will want and sometimes its about making it work with what they got not

what you want them to have. .

 

Inobu

 

 

Edited February 13, 2018 by inobu

[kvp]

22 minutes ago, inobu said:

Ok you figured it out with Tomix.

The original question was about Tomix tracks and whether to use 103 or 140 Tomix tram tracks. Also about the option to use any throttle, even a fixed DCC decoder. My solution covers these. Your idea is also usable and i wrote how to mod it to Tomix tracks as Kato doesn't have the right sensors for this. (you could butcher 2 kato automatic signal for the parts though) I'm sure that for other gauges or track manufacturers your milage may vary.

 

ps: There are easy track systems like Tomix finetrack and painfully hard ones like Peco code 55. Everyone could select their favourite.

[inobu]

You get locked onto one way of thinking and miss everything. "Kato doesn't have the right sensors for this".

 

Why does it have to be a Kato device. It requires a small tripping device.  A magnet to trip a magnetic sensor or reed switch. You can get them at any electronic store.

Its no different than the magnetic system used on the Tomix bus.  

 

Here is the example. Why would you even suggest butcher 2 $35 signals when you can get a $2 switch. That has no logic to it.

In any case I stated enough and I don't have anymore to contribute here. 

Inobu

 

 

[kvp]

1 hour ago, inobu said:

Why does it have to be a Kato device. It requires a small tripping device.  A magnet to trip a magnetic sensor or reed switch. You can get them at any electronic store.

The TCS sensors don't need any modification to the rolling stock. Kato automatic signals also work with any metal wheeled trains, regardless the location of the motor unit. Choosing the right track system can help a lot.

 

Reed switches need magnets glued to the underside of the trains. Trams have very much no space there. Tomix and Kato turnouts also have magnets in them and the two could interact in funny ways. You didn't suggest any alternative threadle type sensors for N scale. (old pikos looked horrible but work fine, old arnolds are better but are very hard to come by in working condition)

 

Imho getting the right parts for a certain task are half the work or in this case most of it.

[gavino200]

8 hours ago, kvp said:

Kato turnouts are not fully power routing, they don't isolate and switch the outer rails. Also Kato doesn't manufacture classic track sensors either.

 

Tomix does both, so it's easier to use the off the shelf components. Especially if you don't have to add isolators and extra feeders. It just works.

 

This part of the discussion is moot. I've decided to use Tomix track for the loops and switches anyway, as Kato doesn't make single tram track.

 

So Tomix it is.

[gavino200]

10 hours ago, inobu said:

I completely forgot about this. Kiha drawing reminded me. I did the wiring for an outdoor layout this Christmas and had to use this unit. The documentation is a bit

convoluted but it worked. This will work automatically. You can adjust the speed and slow stop. It uses magnets sensors.   

 

http://rr-concepts.com/images/pdf/yardmaster_5manual.pdf

 

Look on  page 35.

 

Inobu

 

I should add. Page 35 shows the powering. Then page 37 shows the sensor wiring.

 

 

Thanks. I'll have to study this. But I'm not liking the magnet switches and flashing light counting.