DCC vs DC: long term costs

[inobu]

6 hours ago, Kiha66 said:

 

I the only one I've seen is still in the preorder phase.  It looks neat but that price is a little high for me.  

http://protothrottle.com

Yeah,

 

That's going to be a hard sell.

 

Most guys in the U.S. want 1 hand control.  (They prefer NCE's throttle).

Need to be able to switch between the units. (It's too cumbersome)

Its a good idea but the market base may be rather small.

 

That $450 price tag is steep.

 

But there you go Victor.

 

Inobu

     

[nah00]

So for me I have no desire to run my Japanese stock with DCC. I may buy a few EM13s and set them to a generic addy so I can run some of my Japanese stock at shows but my main focus would be on my North American stock. I planned from the beginning to start small to learn hands-on and not get overwhelmed and still be able to run trains (my layout idea is the basic prefab door with a double loop on top, one side serving a mine and the other a small diesel service facility). The $450 price tag for the Digitrax Evolution set is a bit high but I like the idea of being able to 'follow' my train (even if it is only a few feet) plus I'll be able to explore more of the programming options on my own at my own pace. Some of my Japanese stock is so old I'd really be worried about damaging it and I don't even want to think what gymnastics I'd like to go through for something like the Wide View Hida or Narita Express with pre-installed light sets.

 

[Kiha66]

28 minutes ago, nah00 said:

 I may buy a few EM13s and set them to a generic addy so I can run some of my Japanese stock at shows but my main focus would be on my North American stock.

 

This is what I've done for the most part, It works well and you can show off without the great expense of converting everything.  An EM13, two FL12 for the headlights will do most modern Kato MUs.  And a DN163K4a in a DD51 means you can just hook most loco hauled trains to the one locomotive.

[nah00]

21 minutes ago, Kiha66 said:

And a DN163K4a in a DD51 means you can just hook most loco hauled trains to the one locomotive.

 

Is it truly drop-in on the DD51? The Digitrax website seems to indicateso but I've never had to take apart one of my Kato DD51s.

[inobu]

40 minutes ago, nah00 said:

 

Is it truly drop-in on the DD51? The Digitrax website seems to indicateso but I've never had to take apart one of my Kato DD51s.

The DD51 is pretty straight forward and a good one to start with. As a first conversion it will allow you to see a basic shell removal and the concept behind the isolation of the frame from the motor.

 

You have to be attentive when it comes to building your small layout. The curve radius will dictate which loco you will be able to run. Large wheelbase loco and cars may not be able to navigate on a door layout. It will take some planning to get it right.

 

As I stated look around for a use DDC system. I'm telling you its worth it. Like I said. Download JMRI and play around with it. Its free and can play an intricate role in a layout.

 

This is a 3x6 and you can only run F units and maybe RS2 any of the other loco can't make the turns. This isn't the current photo as I have the building foundation and roads in place.

It is wired for DC and DCC. But with DC its kinda boring. With the DCC you can hide one train in the tunnel and place it on a timer. It will come out and circle around and back. In the mean time you can use a switcher in the yard to arrange a line up. The game is to get the line up ready before the train makes it schedule round.

This is why I keep harping on JMRI. With the computer interface you can set up a lot of scenario to work around. I think I'm going to add a switch after the bridge in the flat area. 

This way someone can race to drop of a freight car off before the schedule run (train sitting in the tunnel) makes its pass.  This one is equipped with a NCE Power Cab, USB interface

for computer (JMRI) control.  

 

 

This is from Woodland Scenic  "Scenic Ridge" kit. I bought the kit to see what was in it. I ended up using 

my components as they were better.

 

Inobu

 

 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2018 by inobu

[Kiha66]

1 hour ago, nah00 said:

Is it truly drop-in on the DD51? The Digitrax website seems to indicateso but I've never had to take apart one of my Kato DD51s.

 

Almost, you need to add some tape or paper spacer under one end to ensure contact, and remove or slightly trim the light pipes.  Otherwise it is very easy.  The DD51 comes apart very easy too, the cab pops off then each hood.  Its easy enough to convert before taking it to the club, and just switch it back the next day.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Kiha66

[kvp]

11 hours ago, Kiha66 said:

 

I the only one I've seen is still in the preorder phase.  It looks neat but that price is a little high for me.  

http://protothrottle.com

Thanks! I've checked it and it's an open source project using xbee as a wireless link. No loconet support though, so you can't use it on a fremo type layout. The controls are perfect though, great for a nohab diesel. (as it's a mini handheld throttle, it would be ideal for club/exhibition running)

 

Personally i like to drive trains, so not just push plastic buttons to speed up or slow down, but have the same characteristics as the real train. This is why i set the speed curves on my DCC-ed locos and use a kit built loconet throttle. But it's just a single handle type, so no brake lever.

 

ps: if someone decides to buy a DCC system, make sure to have loconet on it, otherwise you can't expand it easily

[Kiha66]

4 minutes ago, kvp said:

Thanks! I've checked it and it's an open source project using xbee as a wireless link. No loconet support though, so you can't use it on a fremo type layout. The controls are perfect though, great for a nohab diesel. (as it's a mini handheld throttle, it would be ideal for club/exhibition running)

 

Personally i like to drive trains, so not just push plastic buttons to speed up or slow down, but have the same characteristics as the real train. This is why i set the speed curves on my DCC-ed locos and use a kit built loconet throttle. But it's just a single handle type, so no brake lever.

 

ps: if someone decides to buy a DCC system, make sure to have loconet on it, otherwise you can't expand it easily

 

Yeah, if it wasn't for the price I'd be pretty interesting getting one, they say they're working on adding a Loconet compatible base station at a later date.  I'd like to get a more realistic throttle, either in DCC or for DC at home, but Kato's is long out of production and tomix's is way to expensive.    I find it interesting how in Asia running your trains from one place tends to be the norm, where here in the US people seem to instead try to follow the train as it goes around the layout.

[kvp]

1 hour ago, Kiha66 said:

I find it interesting how in Asia running your trains from one place tends to be the norm, where here in the US people seem to instead try to follow the train as it goes around the layout.

Actually this is a function of available space, layout sizes and control patterns. Most japanese layouts are small enough to be controllable from one sitting position. Also similarly to the old european way, most japanese layouts can have more than one running train per operator, as much as 4 or more. This is due to the common multitrack arrangements of japanese commuter railroads. If you have 2 or 4 tracks, you want to see trains moving on all of them, just like in real life. The old european approach was the position of the tower operator, overseeing everything and controlling the turnouts and the signals, that in turn control the trains. Even the ancient Berliner TT Bahn system supported automatic blocks, so if you could switch a station fast enough (or used timer controlled relays), you could juggle a huge amount of trains on the layout at the same time. (with virtually no limit as the system was daisy chainable up to the overload trip current of the 220V wall socket) Essentially the automatic blocks provided a FIFO queue that fed trains into the station from all directions, but kept them from colliding. (all with simple electromechanical components)

 

The american approach is to go with your train and even hand throw your turnouts, like a freight crew would do on a non automated line. Having more than one train moving is usually done by hand controlling one and leaving the rest on a set speed (if that's possible) or dumbly automating them with a start/stop system. Tower operator roles are not common there and very few people model busy commuter operations.

 

The full manual, all stations manned style is used by fremo, where there are separate station and train crews. CTC is allowed though and i've ran a smaller remote station on CTC control once during an exhibition, but controlling multiple stations (one local and one remote) was a bit too much work due to the sped up clock. There are hand thrown turnouts too, usually controlled by the line's road shunter loco crew, picking up and dropping off cars on the line at freight sidings. This is the american approach, but it's usually only done by one person.

 

The japanese approach combines the old european tower method with the us style of driving one train by hand. This is doable with either automation or having dedicated loops for the set and go or stop/go automated trains and then driving your favourite one from a replica stand. The latter is doable as most japanese layouts are still the sit down 'table top' style, where you can see most of the layout from a comfortable sitting position. This also allows the station controls and the throttles of all trains to remain near the operator. It's just more comfortable and fits better to the limited available space in Japan.

[kvp]

8 hours ago, gavino200 said:

Do you have a link or a brand/model for that? It sounds amazing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQj5y-PBiv4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBdzgokRRdE

 

DCC controlled. You set each pair of cars to a loco address and use the function keys to open and close the doors and to turn the internal lights on/off. (F0-F2 can be used by a loco at the same address, so you can use the same address for the loco and a string of cars without consisting) There are similar sets with different liveries from the same company.

[gavino200]

4 hours ago, kvp said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQj5y-PBiv4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBdzgokRRdE

 

DCC controlled. You set each pair of cars to a loco address and use the function keys to open and close the doors and to turn the internal lights on/off. (F0-F2 can be used by a loco at the same address, so you can use the same address for the loco and a string of cars without consisting) There are similar sets with different liveries from the same company.

 

It's not bad. I was imagining a commuter train with working doors. I guess we'll have to wait a bit for that.