DCC vs DC: long term costs

[nah00]

So this weekend I got the chance to run some of my North American rolling stock on my club's layout and I added DCC boards to them (both were contemporary Atlas diesels, only hard part was getting the contacts into the holes on the Digitrax boards). After running them pretty much all day (and keeping track of them, five trains on a loop requires cooperation) I was amazed by how smooth and frankly how easy DCC operation was. Now I know that converting Tomix to DCC can be a bit like removing an ingrown toenail with a rusty pair of pliers and for the most part the 'operation' bit of my Japanese layout doesn't require DCC but I've been thinking of building a smaller North American layout and DCC just seems the logical choice. There is a larger upfront investment but it seems that expansion is much easier, wiring becomes very simple, you have a lot of options as to what you can program your locos to do and the interface while somewhat dated is reliable. However this upfront investment seems to outweigh the long term costs of DC, namely that expansion means a new power pack, new wiring and more work.

 

Am I just being overly enthusiastic because I tried something new and novel or is it really a better system in the long run? Digitrax's logo of 'run your trains, not your tracks' is catchy but there is truth to it - aside from the occasional random derailment (and occasional rear-ending a train because I was talking to a guest and not minding the throttle) I had no real issues with the system and programming it wasn't difficult.

 

Also I ran my Kato EF-210 on it and had directional lighting on DCC track...is this model designed for this?

[cteno4]

Nah,

 

i expect its about how big your collection of Japanese non socket equipment is and how much time you want to sink into doing conversions. I’ve played with Japanese Dcc on one of our clubmenbers really nice layout which had the track and wiring done professionally. It’s generally nice as you note to control things smoothly, but it has been cranky here and there operating a few times that usually was cleaning railmor wheels and a couple of Dcc decoder changes. It’s not perfect but nice and lots of cool expansion and automation stuff that has more possibilities than just dc. For smaller layouts I find the Bennie of running multiple trains not always so good as many have little space to get two trains running on the same track.

 

my collection would be a huge investment in time to convert. I could see the monetary investment if they were just drop ins, but the time to do allmthe conversions would eat up soooo much train time I don’t see the payoff right now. Maybe I the future when I have more time, but lots of other things I want to spend train time on right now. But that’s my situation.

 

i don’t thing there is a Right or wrong answer just what fits your time, energy, interest, collection and finances etc the best.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Kiha66]

I think DCC vs DC is a situational thing.  While running on a club layout is greatly simplified by having DCC and no blocks for the operators to worry about, a small personal layout usually doesn't need the capacity.  I've added decoders to a few of my trains for club running, and have left the rest DC.  The kato trains that can take an EM13 decoder are great as you can leave them DC for home use, then add the chip for running with a club.  You also only need once decoder, and can switch it between trains.  The locomotives that take the DN163K4a style decoder are also easy to switch between DC and DCC, although the decoders usually need some sort of spacer underneath to ensure contact with the frame.  I own a DD51 permanently converted to DCC, and then use an EM13 and DN163K4a decoder for my rolling stock and locos which are compatible.  All others I just leave DC, other than my kato 0 series which has a hardwired decoder. 

Edited February 6, 2018 by Kiha66

[railsquid]

When I started out, I was planning to go DCC because new, modern etcetera, but access to a plethora of inexpensive trains which would need manual conversion, and with multiple units possibly chips for the directional lighting it quickly became an unrealistic proposition, and operationally most of what I "need" can be done with points and the odd block section...

[kvp]

DCC is great if you want to run a club layout with manual control of the trains, usually one train per person. it also allows having two non consisted locomotives in the same block, so it's good for running partially signalled layouts with lots of operators on the same track. The usual solution in this case is to wire everything into one huge block.

 

For a home layout, especially a european or japanese one, where block controls are stricter and there are (or should be) signals to enforce them, standard DC block control is enough. A simplified variant of this for small layouts with one station is to use loop control, where each loop is controlled by one controller. This allows very easy setup (especially with power routing japanese turnouts) and one connection per loop for each analog DC controller.

 

The price difference of a DC system with 2 or 3 controllers or a DCC system with one central and lots of decoders is huge, so for a looped layout with one station, standard analog DC is much cheaper and allows a ready to run setup without modifying anything.

 

Once you get into full layout automation, the prices get nearer, as DC and DCC layout automation need almost the same amount of hardware and similar train sensors. The only difference is that for DC automation, you need as many block drivers (decoders) as you have blocks, while for DCC, you need as many in train decoders (times 3 for japanese emus/dmus) as you have trains. The layout complexity is exactly the same, including the number of blocks. Imho most people have more trains than blocks on their layouts, so digital DC with train position detection is still cheaper than automated DCC with train position detection.

 

But above a certain number of operators (usually 2 or 3) and no automation, the benefits of DCC gets clearer as everone can drive wherever they want, without any block control or signal interlocking. For a US style layout or a large station with lots of simultenous shunting (like 2 or 3 shunters moving at the same time), DCC is better. For a home layout with point to point running and all trains running under manual control (with 2 or 3 stations) or a looped layout with more than 2 stations and all trains under manual control, DCC allows easier layout setup. The question if if your layout will be big enough and the number of human operators will be large enough to really require a DCC system. (so far most home layouts i've seen that used DCC had at most two or three trains running, all on different loops or under the control of the same person, which made DCC look superfluous)

[chadbag]

The other question is, how much do you like to learning explore and futz around with things?

 

For ME, I ike the concept of DCC as I can learn new things, futz around with different controllers and controls, be more "hands on" in setting things, let my kids easily run multiple trains on the same track, and hook up my computer to do stuff to the trains.  Not that I need to, but it allows me to indulge the inner tinkerer and DIYer.

 

I've bought a few eBay German lokos, and before I pull the trigger I look up how hard they are to convert.  I don't mind the conversion (I also think everyone should change their own oil, if nothing more than to learn how to do it) and it is part of the fun for me -- to tinker and make it work.  I have bought 1 Tomix Shinkansen, which turned out to be a pretty easy conversion.  I may buy more Tomix in the future, but will check to see if there are any Tomix war stories for that particular train.   I buy Kato, bot the DCC ready (with EM13) and others, which I have hardwired converted.    Basically, I buy what I like, but do check to make sure the DCC conversion is "reasonable", even if it requires soldering :)

 

But I like to do things with my hands (as I sit in front of a computer all day and need the distraction) and I like to make things work.   I made 2 bass guitars from scratch and learned how to do some woodworking.  (And have a couple more guitar projects underway).  Because I can.   I also have RC multi-rotor projects underway; building from kits or for scratch (buying carbon tubes, generic motor mounts, etc).   Again, because I can.   My DCC choice to run only DCC comes from this same nature.   I get to play hands-on, have control, earn new things, futz around with stuff, and make things work.

 

Other people have other personalities and have other priorities.   Basically, I guess what I am saying, is it is more than a pure cost or hassle question for some people.

 

PS:

 

@nah00   Also, I like your Koki tag-image.   I really want some Yamato Transport containers, and Tomix makes a set with car, but n eBay they are horribly expensive (cost plus shipping) on eBay, and amazon.co.jp does not sell them directly, only through third parties, so I cannot get them sent to the US from there.  I may end up buying one from Germany, at a horribly expensive price, but "free" shipping since I would be buying other stuff anyway and all the stores there have a flat-rate US shipping, so end cost would be less than sending from Japan on eBay.   I don't want to abuse my family in Japan (wife's family) and have them send me it as I want to leave them for things like spare parts, decoders, and other "infrequent" necessary things.

 

 

Edited February 6, 2018 by chadbag

[inobu]

nah00,

 

With DC the most common option is to buy more trains.

 

Switching to DCC you can start adding features to your layout. 

 

I would get a Zephry and a PR4. It will cost you  $265. I would add JMRI (Free). Next, I would then get my layout working with

my smart phone.

Next I would get a DS64 to control my switched via DCC.

Next I would put my layout in JMRI and build my CTC to control the switched.

 

http://www.quaker-valley.com/ctc/Tablet_Panel.gif

 

 

Next I would get occupancy detectors to control my signaling aspects. 

Next I would add sound play back for my station to play arrival and departure wav files.

Next I would add lighting to my layout controlled by my computer.

 

As you can see the features are endless. Granted you can achieve this with DC but it will cost you a lot more in money and labor to get to the same point.

 

Inobu

 

 

 

 

[kvp]

17 minutes ago, inobu said:

As you can see the features are endless. Granted you can achieve this with DC but it will cost you a lot more in money and labor to get to the same point.

Or you just get everything from Tomix off the shelf, plug it in and it just works. Not as nice as building everything yourself, but much easier and  faster. The automatic operation, sound and lighting is available off the shelf from Tomix.

 

The DCC system would cost about the same, just a little bit more for the decoders. Also instead of just plugging together the components from the same manufacturer, you have to hack together systems from various vendors that are not designed to operate together. Not to mention adding a heap of computer code to control them as there is no off the shelf commercial system for it, just a few open source projects for engineers. This could easily add up to several thousand dollaras of equipment.

 

For most people, getting a Tomix New Control System (now with signal control), a Tomix TCS driving stand with sound and a Tomix station sound kit would get you about the same, except the whole thing could be put together on tatamis without tools or understanding every bit of how it works. Then you can run your trains without hacking to get them DCC equipped, just put them on the tracks from the box and they will work. Especially if you are into japanese railroading as trains, signals and most accessories are designed for DC operation. (digitally controlled DC, but still DC)

 

Imho, getting DCC and going towards automation is something that is mostly for engineers with lots of time. Doing the same with off the shelf components from Tomix is much easier. The results might be more limited, but that it can be made to work without too much work is imho worth it.

[chadbag]

Isn't the Tomic TCS system a "proprietary" system?  Anyone besides Tomix support it?

 

[kvp]

24 minutes ago, chadbag said:

Isn't the Tomic TCS system a "proprietary" system?  Anyone besides Tomix support it?

It is. But it's integated, so it works out of the box. DCC is an open standard, pretty much like Loconet. But you can't really buy a whole off the shelf system and there are components where home built is the only way. This means you have to be an engineer (software/hardware) and design many things using the documentation only or some not so well supported free code and drawings off the net.

 

On the other hand, the same documentation exists for the TCS interface, so you can roll your own there too, you just don't have to.

 

ps: You can even invent your own wheel and build everything by hand for both DC and DCC. But imho that takes so much time that little remains to actually run your trains.

[inobu]

2 hours ago, kvp said:

Or you just get everything from Tomix off the shelf, plug it in and it just works. Not as nice as building everything yourself, but much easier and  faster. The automatic operation, sound and lighting is available off the shelf from Tomix.

 

The DCC system would cost about the same, just a little bit more for the decoders. Also instead of just plugging together the components from the same manufacturer, you have to hack together systems from various vendors that are not designed to operate together. Not to mention adding a heap of computer code to control them as there is no off the shelf commercial system for it, just a few open source projects for engineers. This could easily add up to several thousand dollaras of equipment.

 

For most people, getting a Tomix New Control System (now with signal control), a Tomix TCS driving stand with sound and a Tomix station sound kit would get you about the same, except the whole thing could be put together on tatamis without tools or understanding every bit of how it works. Then you can run your trains without hacking to get them DCC equipped, just put them on the tracks from the box and they will work. Especially if you are into japanese railroading as trains, signals and most accessories are designed for DC operation. (digitally controlled DC, but still DC)

 

Imho, getting DCC and going towards automation is something that is mostly for engineers with lots of time. Doing the same with off the shelf components from Tomix is much easier. The results might be more limited, but that it can be made to work without too much work is imho worth it.

Its kinda misleading to present this to the OP in that it is not the case and does not follow the path he speaking to. He has experienced a DCC layout and is now contemplating building a smaller North American layout. He has already invested in

decoders and have them installed. You are suggesting a Tomix NCS which will place him still wondering about DCC and render his 2 trains useless at home. He's at a minus listening to you already. LOL

 

As I stated the initial setup will get him going and gives him a build path. If he add a BPX88 ($140.00) he will have all the basic components with a lot of future growth. With your suggestion he would have limited growth and

minimal knowledge growth in the hobby. 

Note:

PBX88 will add Block detection, transponding and power management from 1 unit. The code is in JMRI already and they have python scrips ready made.

 

This is from experience:  A 52 switch layout that is controlled by JMRI (Free)

JMRI was installed first and then this panel was created for the layout and installed. It runs 

behind the layout on a flat screen tv where everyone can see it.

 

 

 

nah00,

 

My advise is to download JMRI on a old pc and look at it first. Play around with it and then make your call.

Open it up and set the connection to Digitrax in simulation mode.

Then open Panel Pro and place 1 switch on the panel and make it work. 

From there make a small layout and play with it. 

after wards you can control that screen layout from your smart phone.

It is challenging but the reward it worth it because you have not spent a dime. 

If you can get this working on the pc then get the DCC (I suggest the Zephyr, PR4) and then other components

 

By doing this you will be in the top 25% of modelers with this knowledge base. 

 

Inobu

 

I have to add this. I'm working on this light bar for ditch lights on a AC4400CW. DCC/decoder will allow you to add LED's that will alternating the ditch light

whenever the gate horn is played. A BPX88 will report what train is in the gate section to JMRI. A script will issue the command. JMRI will send the command

over the rails and the train will sound off and the light will alternate. Too many possibilities with DCC.

 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2018 by inobu

[tt0880]

16 hours ago, Kiha66 said:

The kato trains that can take an EM13 decoder are great as you can leave them DC for home use, then add the chip for running with a club.  You also only need once decoder, and can switch it between trains.

Woah, is it seriously this easy to switch between DC and DCC? I have a few Kato DCC ready trains that I've been hesitant to convert because I thought this was more or less a permanent conversion. My home layout is DCC while my club is full DCC. Can I really just put in the decoder when I want to do DCC and take it out to run it on my home layout?

 

That would be AWESOME! 

[inobu]

3 minutes ago, tt0880 said:

Woah, is it seriously this easy to switch between DC and DCC? I have a few Kato DCC ready trains that I've been hesitant to convert because I thought this was more or less a permanent conversion. My home layout is DCC while my club is full DCC. Can I really just put in the decoder when I want to do DCC and take it out to run it on my home layout?

 

That would be AWESOME! 

Yes, you can but it becomes a hassle and potential trouble going in and out of it.

 

Look for a used DCC system. There are guys that are constantly changing out systems. I was in a hobby store (hangout) and a guy was talking about selling his DCC system. He didn't like it and bought a NCE instead.  I asked how much and he said $75? It works he said yes. then I asked what was it? Prodigy Advance 2, Next thing I said go get it and I was off to the ATM.

So if you a worried about the cost look for a used one just to see. In most cases when you get into DCC DC is done for the most part. I have two connection on my test layout one for DC and the other for DCC. Very rarely I use DC but its there if need be. I would rather have 2 DCC trains than 10 DC trains. Now my issue is sound. Lok sound is really good and what you can do with it.

 

My suggestion is always go DCC and get a computer interface.

 

Inobu

 

 

 

[Kiha66]

1 hour ago, tt0880 said:

Woah, is it seriously this easy to switch between DC and DCC? I have a few Kato DCC ready trains that I've been hesitant to convert because I thought this was more or less a permanent conversion. My home layout is DCC while my club is full DCC. Can I really just put in the decoder when I want to do DCC and take it out to run it on my home layout?

 

That would be AWESOME! 

 

Yep!  The trains that take em13 or DN163K4a decoders are easy to change back and forth.  Just beware the older style with the full width boards unfortunately are not able to switch back and forth as easily, as those ones have to be soldered in.

[railsquid]

9 hours ago, chadbag said:

The other question is, how much do you like to learning explore and futz around with things?

 

For ME, I ike the concept of DCC as I can learn new things, futz around with different controllers and controls, be more "hands on" in setting things, let my kids easily run multiple trains on the same track, and hook up my computer to do stuff to the trains.  Not that I need to, but it allows me to indulge the inner tinkerer and DIYer.

 

I've bought a few eBay German lokos, and before I pull the trigger I look up how hard they are to convert.  I don't mind the conversion (I also think everyone should change their own oil, if nothing more than to learn how to do it) and it is part of the fun for me -- to tinker and make it work.  I have bought 1 Tomix Shinkansen, which turned out to be a pretty easy conversion.  I may buy more Tomix in the future, but will check to see if there are any Tomix war stories for that particular train.   I buy Kato, bot the DCC ready (with EM13) and others, which I have hardwired converted.    Basically, I buy what I like, but do check to make sure the DCC conversion is "reasonable", even if it requires soldering :)

 

But I like to do things with my hands (as I sit in front of a computer all day and need the distraction) and I like to make things work.   I made 2 bass guitars from scratch and learned how to do some woodworking.  (And have a couple more guitar projects underway).  Because I can.   I also have RC multi-rotor projects underway; building from kits or for scratch (buying carbon tubes, generic motor mounts, etc).   Again, because I can.   My DCC choice to run only DCC comes from this same nature.   I get to play hands-on, have control, earn new things, futz around with stuff, and make things work.

 

 

 

Funnily enough I also sit in front of the computer all day, and the last thing I want to mess about with is anything involving some sort of computer or programming. I like DC because I can do hands-on things like soldering wires and switches lights and resistors and stuff, and I also buy non-runners to repair. Because I can, and because I like messing around with stuff, and making things work.

[railsquid]

3 hours ago, inobu said:

nah00,

 

With DC the most common option is to buy more trains.

 

Switching to DCC you can start adding features to your layout.

 

Umm, you don't need DCC to add features to your layout beyond buying more trains. Plenty of "conventional" electronic stuff about.

Like I said earlier, I don't do DCC because of the expense and hassle of converting all the stock I have, but that doesn't prevent me doing other things beyond further expanding my stock...

[gavino200]

On 2/5/2018 at 10:27 PM, nah00 said:

So this weekend I got the chance to run some of my North American rolling stock on my club's layout and I added DCC boards to them (both were contemporary Atlas diesels, only hard part was getting the contacts into the holes on the Digitrax boards). After running them pretty much all day (and keeping track of them, five trains on a loop requires cooperation) I was amazed by how smooth and frankly how easy DCC operation was. Now I know that converting Tomix to DCC can be a bit like removing an ingrown toenail with a rusty pair of pliers and for the most part the 'operation' bit of my Japanese layout doesn't require DCC but I've been thinking of building a smaller North American layout and DCC just seems the logical choice. There is a larger upfront investment but it seems that expansion is much easier, wiring becomes very simple, you have a lot of options as to what you can program your locos to do and the interface while somewhat dated is reliable. However this upfront investment seems to outweigh the long term costs of DC, namely that expansion means a new power pack, new wiring and more work.

 

Am I just being overly enthusiastic because I tried something new and novel or is it really a better system in the long run? Digitrax's logo of 'run your trains, not your tracks' is catchy but there is truth to it - aside from the occasional random derailment (and occasional rear-ending a train because I was talking to a guest and not minding the throttle) I had no real issues with the system and programming it wasn't difficult.

 

Also I ran my Kato EF-210 on it and had directional lighting on DCC track...is this model designed for this?

 

DCC is more fun. Especially if you use the layout with kids. The only real question is whether you want to get into converting every loco you buy.

 

For a North American layout, DCC conversion is extremely easy. There is a drop-in decoder for every NA loco I've ever had. KatoUSA locos are very simple conversions.

 

For Japanese locos it's not always so simple. Locos that take the EM13 are very simple. They could hardly be easier. But not all Japanese locos take an EM13. Many are extremely hard even using a tiny ESU decoder. If you stick with only using EM13 compatible locos, you'll narrow your selection range significantly. 

 

I haven't failed to convert anything yet. But there have been a few that took me a really long time to succeed. Just to list a few of the tougher ones:

 

C-62 and D-51, both steam engines. Both are tricky. I know how to do them now and can convert them quite quickly but the learning curve was extremely shallow. 

Type 500 Shinansen is very tricky. Even the cab light conversions were a head wrecker.

M-250 super rail cargo, is extremely hard. I couldn't have done it if Inobu hadn't blazed a trail. (also true of the 500 shinkansen)

EH-200 very tricky. There's a drop in decoder that doesn't exactly drop in. It needs a lot of help.

 

There are many others. I have actually enjoyed these challenges, but they are tough and time consuming. Doing them one at a time, as you acquire locos is ok. Converting a large backlog of already acquired locos would be a bit daunting. The cost for me isn't prohibitive. I tend to use relatively cheap decoders unless I need something very small. But the work is not inconsiderable. Before deciding to convert your Japanese roster, have a look at Inobu's Type 500 Shinkansen conversion thread. If that looks like fun, then go ahead. If it looks like a nightmare then stick with DC or only go DCC with your North American layout.  

Edited February 7, 2018 by gavino200

[inobu]

2 minutes ago, railsquid said:

 

Umm, you don't need DCC to add features to your layout beyond buying more trains. Plenty of "conventional" electronic stuff about.

Like I said earlier, I don't do DCC because of the expense and hassle of converting all the stock I have, but that doesn't prevent me doing other things beyond further expanding my stock...

There are certain factors that dictates who will go DCC and who will not. Collectors have the tendency to stay DC as DCC does not appeal to them. As far as they are concerned a decoder is another train therefore a waste.

Runners lean toward DCC because they want more interaction which DCC supports. They want to duplicate the real world and everything in it.

 

The root question is if you were to do it again would you go straight to DCC?

 

When I look back straight to DCC would have been the better choice for me but then again I'm a runner as well.

 

going back to nah00. You already have 2 trains with decoders you are already committed. 

 

Inobu

[kvp]

I would like to add that my european trains are DCC-ed so i can run them on the club layout or at fremo meetings. I got decoders that support analog conversion, so i can run them in analog mode with a plain old analog controller (i have a few from maerklin, minitrix and lego). The idea is that the decoder senses the analog voltage and lets it through the H bridge (and also sets the headlights). So if you do DCC right, then you don't have to convert the trains back and forth.

 

Having DCC is nice and it does allow more possibilities, nice light effects and even opening doors in N scale (there is an european set that does that off the shelf, it has mini motors in every car for that). What put me off from going DCC for my japanese stock is the amount of work it would need to get all my trains DCC-ed as i have quite a lot a old split frame motors, where i would have to mill out the space for the decoders. Then there are the multimotor sets, where i would need up to 6 decoders to have a fully functional train (4 headlights, 2 motors). Then there are the critters, the small interurban emu units that have a tiny motor powering one bogie and not much space to put anything else inside. Some of them needed a motor in every other car to be able to move without overloading the motors.

 

For a north american layout, i would say DCC is ok. Not really needed for a simple oval of a home layout, but ok as it's easy and cheap as long as you don't have more electronic boards under the layout as you have trains on the layout. Getting lost in electronics and not getting the scenery done and not running the trains because the layout control system needs more work is a danger that (imho) should be avoided. (unless you enjoy building electronics)

[railsquid]

6 hours ago, inobu said:

There are certain factors that dictates who will go DCC and who will not. Collectors have the tendency to stay DC as DCC does not appeal to them. As far as they are concerned a decoder is another train therefore a waste.

Runners lean toward DCC because they want more interaction which DCC supports. They want to duplicate the real world and everything in it.

 

The root question is if you were to do it again would you go straight to DCC?

 

When I look back straight to DCC would have been the better choice for me but then again I'm a runner as well.

 

 

If I were to start again, I'd stick to DC. It's a hobby, I do it for my own pleasure, I have a limited amount of time to spend on it and I'd rather direct my attempts to duplicate the real world towards getting some semblance of a layout together, visually/mechanically improving stock etc. Like kvp says, for Japanese stock it's a lot of work, I don't have the time or energy for even for a subset of the Japanese stock I want to run, and while my desire for operational complexity goes a little beyond sticking a Shinkansen or two on the track at full throttle, I don't intend to run a real railway, and the possibilities offered by power-routing points and a couple of DPDT switches suffice for my needs.

 

I might at some point consider converting my British stock to DCC (and the layout to dual-mode DC/DCC), as it has a much better level of DCC support and it's conceivable I could convert the non-DCC models myself, and operationally it's much more locomotive-based (particularly for the eras I'm interested in) so would be a much better "investment" for me personally. YMMV and all that.

[inobu]

I think both of you have outlined your positions concerning Japanese and European modeling aspect pretty good. With that the OP can make a judgement call on what he is going to do on his smaller North American layout. Because he is living in the States his access to North American trains and stock and may be a little easier and cheaper. As I stated before I purchased a used MRC Prodigy A2 for $75. Although its was a lucky find it proves possible and worth the search. I forgot I got a complete NCE Power Cab for $25. It was beat up. I bought a new plastic case and the upgrade chip which cost me $44. total cost was $69.00. 

 

In any case the OP can make an informative decision on whats best for him. Its like Jeff said it depends on the individuals circumstances.

 

Inobu

 

 

 

 

[kvp]

2 hours ago, inobu said:

As I stated before I purchased a used MRC Prodigy A2 for $75. Although its was a lucky find it proves possible and worth the search. I forgot I got a complete NCE Power Cab for $25. It was beat up. I bought a new plastic case and the upgrade chip which cost me $44. total cost was $69.00. 

Could you recommend a good DCC compatible driving stand? Something similar to the japanese style analog driving stands (small replica cabs) but compatible with loconet. A classic US style double horizontal lever control (throttle/brake) would be a big bonus.

[Kiha66]

5 minutes ago, kvp said:

Could you recommend a good DCC compatible driving stand? Something similar to the japanese style analog driving stands (small replica cabs) but compatible with loconet. A classic US style double horizontal lever control (throttle/brake) would be a big bonus.

 

I the only one I've seen is still in the preorder phase.  It looks neat but that price is a little high for me.  

http://protothrottle.com

[gavino200]

18 hours ago, kvp said:

and even opening doors in N scale (there is an european set that does that off the shelf, it has mini motors in every car for that).

 

Do you have a link or a brand/model for that? It sounds amazing.

[inobu]

5 hours ago, kvp said:

Could you recommend a good DCC compatible driving stand? Something similar to the Japanese style analog driving stands (small replica cabs) but compatible with loconet. A classic US style double horizontal lever control (throttle/brake) would be a big bonus.

This goes back to a previous discussion. Most U.S. modelers are not looking for a Cab experience. They focus on the activity occurring on the layout. Where as the Japanese enjoy controlling the trains from the Cabs perspective. This is why most of the Japanese controllers mimic Cab levers all the way down to the battery operating sets. The closes thing you will find to the cab experience is the Lionel ZW which has the levers and such but that's from the 1940. Lionel has developed the Legacy throttle which is wireless and that system is like DCC as well. Because of this most DCC manufactures don't have a driving stand. The bulk of their consumers aren't interested on the cab experience.  If you want the driving stand the you only alternative is DC.  

 

In the DCC world its about what you see on the layout more so what you see in front of you. These guys are in their basement running 15 and 20 feet long and want to see it.

 

Inobu