German Intercity (IC) and other train models.

[gavino200]

I'm thinking of getting an IC train. Unfortunately, I don't know German brands well and was hoping to get some advice on quality and strengths/weaknesses of different brands. The brands I've been looking at are Arnold, Lemke, Minitrix, and Fleischmann. How do these compare in general? How about specifically with these models? I've never actually seen a train "in the flesh" from any of these brands.

 

Arnold

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/shop/brands/arnold-n-1-160/diesel-and-electric-locomotives/db-ag-electric-locomotive-class-187-1-traffic-red-livery.html

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/shop/brands/arnold-n-1-160/coaches-and-wagons/arnold-n-1-160-2nd-class-ic-passenger-coach-of-the-db-ag-type-bvmz111-2.html

 

Lemke

http://www.lemkecollection.de/de/Uebersicht/Spur-N/E-Lok-BR182-Taurus-DB-rot-Ep.VI

 

Minitrix

https://www.maerklinshop.de/en/trix/minitrix/locomotives/electric-locomotives/56886/electric-locomotive-road-number-182-007-5

https://www.maerklinshop.de/en/trix/minitrix/wagons/passenger-cars/55626/hobby-ic-express-train-passenger-car-1st-class

 

Fleischmann

https://www.maerklinshop.de/en/trix/minitrix/wagons/passenger-cars/55626/hobby-ic-express-train-passenger-car-1st-class

 

Edited May 8, 2020 by gavino200

[railsquid]

1 hour ago, gavino200 said:

Minitrix
https://www.maerklinshop.de/en/trix/minitrix/wagons/passenger-cars/55626/hobby-ic-express-train-passenger-car-1st-class

 

 

That coach is IIRC a "budget" model designed for smaller radii, and is under-length and looks wrong to me (FWIW ca. 280mm is the minimum radius for scale-length mainline German/European coaches). Other than that I can't comment on any of the specific models listed.
 

I've got a bunch of stuff from the above manufacturers (with the exception of Lemke) and am on the whole very happy with it. Most of it's second hand though.
 

[Densha]

There's quite a lot of European models (also H0) that have been shortened to fit through narrower curves better. This is particularly the case with older models. In my opinion these are not worth owning because they look completely off.

Edited January 14, 2018 by Densha

[gavino200]

Thanks. I didn't notice that. It's not something I would have expected. However, I would have been very disappointed with a shrunken railway carriage.  

[toc36]

Gavino,

 

If you live near Chicago, you could visit Reynaulds.

http://www.reynaulds.com/

 

Stuff is pricey.  I don't if it all 1:160 or 1:150.  There has been previous discussions on this board in this regard.

 

If you can make due with a Swiss (vice German) IC, you might want to consider:

https://www.modeltrainplus.net/collections/n-scale-kato-new/products/kato-10-1145-glacier-express-3-car-basic-set

https://www.modeltrainplus.net/collections/n-scale-kato-new/products/kato-3101-rhatische-bahn-rhb-electric-locomotive-type-ge4-4-iii-albula-line-100th-anniversary-wrapping

 

Mark

[gavino200]

1 hour ago, toc36 said:

Gavino,

 

If you live near Chicago, you could visit Reynaulds.

http://www.reynaulds.com/

 

Stuff is pricey.  I don't if it all 1:160 or 1:150.  There has been previous discussions on this board in this regard.

 

If you can make due with a Swiss (vice German) IC, you might want to consider:

https://www.modeltrainplus.net/collections/n-scale-kato-new/products/kato-10-1145-glacier-express-3-car-basic-set

https://www.modeltrainplus.net/collections/n-scale-kato-new/products/kato-3101-rhatische-bahn-rhb-electric-locomotive-type-ge4-4-iii-albula-line-100th-anniversary-wrapping

 

Mark

 

Thanks, I like to visit Chicago. It's one of my five favorite US cities. For trains I like to shop around, but I also love to visit actual trains stores. I still get that "kid in a toyshop" feeling. So I'd consider schlepping to Chicago just to visit this store. We're heading to Germany this year, and I've promised my wife that New York is next on our domestic list, so it'll probably be next year. We're sort of displaced New Yorkers. Anyway, it looks awesome. 

 

I'm not looking for Swiss trains right a this moment. But I'll probably go there some day. Austria too. I have a linguistic interest in the German speaking zone. 

[kvp]

5 hours ago, Densha said:

There's quite a lot of European models (also H0) that have been shortened to fit through narrower curves better. This is particularly the case with older models. In my opinion these are not worth owning because they look completely off.

One of the cars was really familiar and then i saw a scew in the middle... These are old shorty (80%) TEE cars repainted in modern IC colors. The models are from the late 1960ies/early 1970ies and come from the ancient Trix range. It's like the kokuden series from Kato. These cars have been issued with old cream/red/black TEE paint, cream/red IC paint, plain green and blue DB paint and now the white DBAG paint. Imho it's mostly not about the minimum radius but the number of cars fitting into a startset station track as 3 cars and a lok is thought to be the minimum requirement and that could get quite long with modern trains. Also these old cars have very few pieces and are more robust for smaller kids as details like stairs are left off.

[Densha]

Lima and Märklin, for example, also did quite a lot of (supposedly) 1:87 scale model trains with shorter lengths. Just look at this Dutch double decker coach that was released by Lima, Rivarossi (Lima rebrand), Märklin and Artitec. The Lima/Rivarossi 1990s mould has a 1:100 scale length, the Märklin 2012 (!) mould is still too short with 1:93 scale length, and the Artitec mould finally has the correct 1:87 length.

 

And that's only the tip of the length issue iceberg. Particularly (reissues of) older models have this length issue, but even with modern European models you have to watch out.

[Gryphr]

When it comes to new Coaches, Minitrix, Arnold, and Fleischmann are pretty similar in terms of Detail and running performance, as long as you're careful not to get shortened coaches (mostly the Hobby-Series from Minitrix). Concerning Fleischmann, their Intercity coaches still have the issue of having a slightly too high undercarriage as far as I'm aware. This is not much of a problem when running a Fleischmann-only consist, but when mixing them with other manufacturer's coaches it'll make for a noticable difference.

If you are buying older/used coaches you also might find ones made by Roco (which nowadays belongs to Fleischmann). The Roco coaches also have good detail and running performance, I think Fleischmann still sells them under their name though, just with other model numbers than their own too high coaches.

 

For locomotives, the BR 187 does not run any Intercity services, but exclusively cargo (It has a relatively low Top speed too). Theres the BR 147 which is the passenger vrsion f the 187 with a higher top speed, however they are usually not found on Intercitys either (except the White 147s which are used for the double decker IC2). The BR 182 (Taurus) only Intercity services only rarely, mostly as temporary substitutes for other locomotives. Detailwise the Fleischmann and Minitrix one would be best again, however Minitrix also offers some as a Hobby-Variant again which only has 1 bogie driven and really lacks in pulling power, so be careful to not get one of these when buying Minitrix. I do have an older Minitrix BR 182 which still runs very good and looks good, although I had to replace the gearsets as the stock ones were plastic and kid me didnt't realise that running them at high speed with high loads through tight curves (R~190mm) would not be beneficial for them, predictably they were worn out pretty quick. I've since replaced them with metal ones which have held up fine since (though with a less demanding driving style :D).

Also, both the Fleischmann and the Minitrix have a destination indicator, which would not be used on Intercity services, but can probably be overlooked or maybe even removed. The Hobbytrain variant (sold through Lemke) is lacking a good bit in detail compared to the other two, so at full price it is not a good deal imo.

Other typical Intercity locomotives would be the BR 101 (which is "THE" Intercity locomotive currently and pulls most of them) and also the older BR 120 can still be seen here and there. Both are available from Fleischmann and Minitrix. I have an older Minitrix 120 too which is detailwise pretty good and runs nice, but has an issue of the Hull not fitting on the chassis all the way which makes it look a litttle bit tall. For the BR 101 there's again a Fleischmann and a Minitrix version which are both up there in detail and performance from what I've read, although the Minitrix one is quite expensive as it is only available with a Digital Decoder.

[kvp]

I would like to add that some cars have butterfly style close couplers (usually with a rapido head), while old ones come with bogie mounted couplers. The newest cars have NEM coupler pockets, which allow replacing the coupler head with different types or even drawbars. Some cars only have one feature out of the two (close couplers or NEM pockets).

 

ps: Be careful with cab cars and anything with interior light pickups as some are really bad and the wipers brake the wheels too much.

[gavino200]

4 hours ago, Gryphr said:

When it comes to new Coaches, Minitrix, Arnold, and Fleischmann are pretty similar in terms of Detail and running performance, as long as you're careful not to get shortened coaches (mostly the Hobby-Series from Minitrix). Concerning Fleischmann, their Intercity coaches still have the issue of having a slightly too high undercarriage as far as I'm aware. This is not much of a problem when running a Fleischmann-only consist, but when mixing them with other manufacturer's coaches it'll make for a noticable difference.

If you are buying older/used coaches you also might find ones made by Roco (which nowadays belongs to Fleischmann). The Roco coaches also have good detail and running performance, I think Fleischmann still sells them under their name though, just with other model numbers than their own too high coaches.

 

For locomotives, the BR 187 does not run any Intercity services, but exclusively cargo (It has a relatively low Top speed too). Theres the BR 147 which is the passenger vrsion f the 187 with a higher top speed, however they are usually not found on Intercitys either (except the White 147s which are used for the double decker IC2). The BR 182 (Taurus) only Intercity services only rarely, mostly as temporary substitutes for other locomotives. Detailwise the Fleischmann and Minitrix one would be best again, however Minitrix also offers some as a Hobby-Variant again which only has 1 bogie driven and really lacks in pulling power, so be careful to not get one of these when buying Minitrix. I do have an older Minitrix BR 182 which still runs very good and looks good, although I had to replace the gearsets as the stock ones were plastic and kid me didnt't realise that running them at high speed with high loads through tight curves (R~190mm) would not be beneficial for them, predictably they were worn out pretty quick. I've since replaced them with metal ones which have held up fine since (though with a less demanding driving style :D).

Also, both the Fleischmann and the Minitrix have a destination indicator, which would not be used on Intercity services, but can probably be overlooked or maybe even removed. The Hobbytrain variant (sold through Lemke) is lacking a good bit in detail compared to the other two, so at full price it is not a good deal imo.

Other typical Intercity locomotives would be the BR 101 (which is "THE" Intercity locomotive currently and pulls most of them) and also the older BR 120 can still be seen here and there. Both are available from Fleischmann and Minitrix. I have an older Minitrix 120 too which is detailwise pretty good and runs nice, but has an issue of the Hull not fitting on the chassis all the way which makes it look a litttle bit tall. For the BR 101 there's again a Fleischmann and a Minitrix version which are both up there in detail and performance from what I've read, although the Minitrix one is quite expensive as it is only available with a Digital Decoder.

 

Thanks so much. That's great information!!

[Yavianice]

When choosing a loco especially when you choose to have a cabin car beware that not all locos (especially Fleischmann) have red closing lights. Don’t make the same mistake I made and assume a brand new modern loco (even when sold in conjunction with a cabin car!) from Fleischmann automatically means it has closing lights; it does not. Check before you buy.

 

 

[gavino200]

45 minutes ago, Yavianice said:

When choosing a loco especially when you choose to have a cabin car beware that not all locos (especially Fleischmann) have red closing lights. Don’t make the same mistake I made and assume a brand new modern loco (even when sold in conjunction with a cabin car!) from Fleischmann automatically means it has closing lights; it does not. Check before you buy.

 

 

 

Thanks. Do you mean red rear lights on the loco or on the final carriage, or both? 

 

I see the specs on this model list a head light. But there's no mention of a tail light. Pity, it looks like a nice model.

Edited January 16, 2018 by gavino200

[Yavianice]

 
Thanks. Do you mean red rear lights on the loco or on the final carriage, or both? 

Red closing lights on loco. Cabin cars all have white/red light functionality.

[gavino200]

5 minutes ago, Yavianice said:

Red closing lights on loco. Cabin cars all have white/red light functionality.

 

Thanks. I have a limited vocabulary or proper railway terms. 

 

I see on this video below the final car has a small cab. That's the 'cabin car' you're talking about, right?  I didn't see that when I was shopping around for carriages. BTW you might want to turn the sound down for the first minute, so avoid hearing some pretty horrible music.

 

 

Edited January 16, 2018 by gavino200

[Yavianice]

Yes. Intercity trains in Germany usually (but not always!) have cabin cars. IMO it’s easier to have cabin cars so you don’t have to move your loco around. And it looks cooler.

 

Also nothing wrong with the music mate. I like this guys vids ;-)

 

[gavino200]

1 minute ago, Yavianice said:

Yes. Intercity trains in Germany usually (but not always!) have cabin cars. IMO it’s easier to have cabin cars so you don’t have to move your loco around. And it looks cooler.

 

Also nothing wrong with the music mate. I like this guys vids ;-)

 

 

Lol. Ok. I'm glad someone likes it. Otherwise, I agree, it's a great vid.

 

BTW, at the end of the video, the same loco is pulling different carriages. More red - rather than the thin red stripe on white (like an ICE). Any idea what type of carriages those are? Regional Bahn? I kind of like them.

[Yavianice]

  Lol. Ok. I'm glad someone likes it. Otherwise, I agree, it's a great vid.   BTW, at the end of the video, the same loco is pulling different carriages. More red - rather than the thin red stripe on white (like an ICE). Any idea what type of carriages those are? Regional Bahn? I kind of like them. 

 

 

 

 Those are CNL trains (sleeper cars) made by LS models (and in the past sold as Hobbytrain cars, even though they were still made by LS Models). This loco also pulls some regional trains though, such as the high speed regional train (the fastest in Germany at 200 kph max speed) between Munich and Nürnberg. These are basically the eurofirma cars with cabin car (that you see in the beginning of the vid) in red with a white stripe. Arnold sells these such as HN4203 (I’m not sure which one contains the cabin car though. This train always runs with a cabin car). Fleischmann also produced these (860881 is the cabin car, 860401 and 860501 are the other cars). In real life, this train will be discontinued this year and replaced by brand new double decker cars that can only run up to 187 kph. 

 

By the way CNL service has been cancelled as of last year; you won’t see the CNL cars run here anymore (except ones that haven’t been painted over in Nightjet colors yet)

 

 

 

 

[kvp]

Just a few remarks:

-control trailers are usually called cab cars or control cars (german: steuerwagen)

-end of train marker lights are usually called tail lights

-headlights are usually white (slightly yellowish for old locomotives) and are arranged in an upwards pointing triangle pattern

-tail lights are usually red and you'll see two of them near the lower two headlights

-shunting lights are usually just one of the headlights turned on at both ends, but most N scale models don't support this

 

Many locomotives have both head and tail lights, but some (usually ones based on an older chassis) only have headlights. Cab cars usually have both, but some of them only have headlights. For locomotives, it's important to check if the prototype of your selected locomotive is able to run with your desired control car as most passenger train equipped locomotives have been used with IC trains at some point, but many of them can't be controlled from a remove cab.

[lighthouse]

Hi, on this website you can build your train according to original composition http://www.vagonweb.cz/razeni/index.php?rok=2014

Unfortunately not all years are represented

 

[gavino200]

I'm beginning to really like these old 70's (?) IC trains. I'm having a hard time working out the significance of the color scheme ivory/burgundy vs. ivory/blue. The mix of both coach colors is nice, but I prefer the loco in 'ozeanblau'. So many nice German trains...

 

 

 

 

This loco is just plain cute.

 

http://www.fleischmann.de/en/product/237666-0-0-1-1-0-0-002002/products.html

Edited January 17, 2018 by gavino200

[lighthouse]

@gavino200

 

The locomotive in your link (BR 110) was preferred for express trains. By the end of the 70s Intercity's and Eurocity's had been promoted with the BR 103 and BR 112, then only with the BR 103 and later in the 80s was added the BR 120.0 .

I can recommend you this website http://www.baureihe110.de/ (please use it with google translator!)

 

Small explanation of the colors of the German Federal Railways in the 70s to the mid-80s.

Ivory / Maroon = High quality trains like Eurocity & Intercity
Ivory / Ocean Blue = 2nd class Intercity, express trains, D trains, local trains

At Eurocity and Intercity, the 2nd class cars were almost always in the color ivory / ocean blue.

 

History of IC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercity_(Deutsche_Bahn)

 

 

Edited January 17, 2018 by lighthouse

[Yavianice]

Fun fact about the BR103: There is still at least one running in Ivory/Maroon colors in regular service to/from Munich. Usually on the first/last IC of the day from/to Ulm, I believe. There is also a restaurant car in Ivory/Maroon (TEE) colors still running in Alex trains (private company in Bavaria), complete with original wooden interior. It's fun to see them when I pass through Munich, which happens very often.

 

 

 

[gavino200]

I'm leaning toward getting an Epoch IV DB intercity train. I think the new IC livery is too close to the ICE design and looks bad in comparison. I do like the "Steuerwagen" and the red BR 101. But as I'll be getting the Kato/Lemke ICE4 this year, I think I'll go for something a with more contrast.

 

I rode the rails a decent bit in Germany in the 80's and 90's. My memories of the actual trains are hazy, but the BR 103 seems vaguely familiar to me. I think I'll go with nostalgia for now and make the ICE my souvenir.

 

So this is roughly the train I'm going for. It doesn't have to be absolutely prototypical. But closer is better, I guess. Does this train make rough prototypical sense? I'm not committed to Fleischmann. These are just examples. Also, all these coaches come from one webstore. I'm not planning on buying there. Rather I'll see what I can pick up in auctions for a good price.

 

Basic consist: BR 103, Two red/beige 1st class coaches, one red/beige restaurant car. three or four 'ozeanblau/beige' 2nd class coaches. 

 

That seems to be the most common train consist that I see in YouTube prototype videos. Although I may be missing important difference, being a foreigner and all.

 

Loco

http://www.fleischmann.de/de/product/161211-437601-0-0-0-0-0-002002/products.html

 

1st Class

https://www.reynaulds.com/products/Fleischmann/8161.aspx

 

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1440&bih=769&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=C-J8Wt3SN4u-tQW0zZvQBw&q=fleischmann+8163&oq=fleischmann+8163&gs_l=psy-ab.3...3054.3755.0.4290.2.2.0.0.0.0.102.111.1j1.2.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.1.9...0i24k1.0.EDXvUTmtA7o

 

Restaurant car

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1440&bih=769&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=C-J8Wt3SN4u-tQW0zZvQBw&q=fleischmann+8162&oq=fleischmann+8162&gs_l=psy-ab.3...31421.32052.0.33227.2.2.0.0.0.0.109.209.0j2.2.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.1.108...0i24k1.0.OMoxsoGhdlQ#imgrc=5buiXTD8A-V1_M:

 

or

 

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1440&bih=769&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=MeN8Wu-HMpPsjwOS5KiwBQ&q=fleischmann+8166&oq=fleischmann+8166&gs_l=psy-ab.3...4238.5213.0.6379.2.2.0.0.0.0.99.197.2.2.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.1.97...0i24k1.0.Rn7yl1Ks3Hc

  

2nd class

 

https://www.reynaulds.com/products/Fleischmann/8194.aspx

 

https://www.eurorailhobbies.com/product.asp?mn=5&ca=7&sc=N&stock=FL-8192

 

 

These "Quick Picc" lounge cars are all over the market but I'm not sure how common they really were.

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1440&bih=769&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=5OJ8WpWWK4v-sAXWsozwDg&q=fleischmann+8165&oq=fleischmann+8165&gs_l=psy-ab.3...8791.9501.0.10940.2.2.0.0.0.0.105.208.0j2.2.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.1.104...0i24k1.0.WfPhmGAWFFs#imgrc=1otnz9_DzA-jiM:

 

https://www.locs4fun.nl/N_frame.html?https://www.locs4fun.nl/Fleischmann_-8193--N_art_2177.php

 

These baggage cars are also common on auctions, but I don't know how common they were on regular IC runs

 

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1440&bih=769&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=YuN8WuayH43kjwPs8J7QDA&q=fleischmann+8190&oq=fleischmann+8190&gs_l=psy-ab.3...25212.26988.0.27388.4.4.0.0.0.0.101.369.3j1.4.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.2.193...0i24k1j0i30k1.0.isOSZOsn8To#imgrc=r0wNxdKQ5FKVSM:

 

Also, I don't really know what a "Gesellschaftswagen" is. "Society" wagon. What's that? A bar? 

http://www.spur-n-modellbahn.de/mgdetail.php?nr=1587

 

 

[chadbag]

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesellschaftswagen

 

Explains what a Gesellschaftswagen is. Basically a bar or party car it seems.