A very peculiar combination from Kokuden.net.

[Welshbloke]

See the 28th and 29th photos down on this link:

 

http://kokuden.net/mc53/sub.htm/sub20.html/sub20-6.html/sub20-6.htm

 

Yes, that's a pair of KuMoHa 12s with a couple of 80 Series cars and a KuHa 111. Anyone know what on earth was going on? Google Translate came up with word salad so I think it needs someone who can understand Japanese properly. Didn't think these types could MU together!

[Kiha66]

I translated them, and it appears they are being forwarded/delivered.

28) Tokaido Line Downward Forwarding (Shizuoka Driving Vehicle Ocean Engineering Entry) 12018 + 87033 + 80100 + Tc111-487 + 12054 (static cis) ← 1975.10.21 Yokohama

 

29) Tokaido line descending delivery delivery (Shizuoka driver's car aircraft construction entry ) → 12018 + 80100 + 87312 + 80349 + 86082 + Moha 111 · 110-47 + 12054 (static cis) 1975.11.13 Oboe

 

Great pictures, now I want to get more of the old JNR brown EMUs.

Edited January 3, 2018 by Kiha66

[railsquid]

It doesn't say explicitly but it looks like the KuMoHa 12s are acting as locomotives/shunters to transfer the stock to/from the Shizuoka works.

[Welshbloke]

14 minutes ago, Kiha66 said:

Great pictures, now I want to get more of the old JNR brown EMUs.

Came across the site while researching train formations for JNR era EMUs, there are pages of photos of brown ones. I have a six car set of the Kato KuMoHa 11/KuHa 16 pairs along with a KuMoHa 12 and a KuMoNi 13. Initially bought them for their cuteness and ability to run on 150mm radius curves, but have since noticed the comment on the Kato diagrams that four of the two car sets can stand in for a pre-war Yamanote Line service if you quietly ignore the rebuilding which took place later.

 

The captions also tend to list the car types within a unit, which is helpful if you're seeking a realistic formation to model.

[Kiha66]

I bought the special edition set of the Kumoha 42 for the same reason, cute single and double cars running on more rural single track lines.  But now after seeing the pictures of the longer trains (and the train the characters take in "from up on poppy hill") I'm debating getting some kuha16/11 sets.   The car type listing is very helpful, I hope kato will release all the iida line cars they've been making in the brown paint scheme as well.

[Welshbloke]

They have released a KuMoHaYuNi 64 in brown, but with a Yokosuka KuHa. Undecided whether I want one or not really. I can't find mention of said power car on Kokuden.net so I'm not sure what else they ran with and if they wandered from the Iida.

 

Do the KuMoHa 42s use the same couplers as these or did they come with the older type? They must have been released around the time Kato were producing their new design (looks like Tomix but won't couple to Tomix).

[Kiha66]

The 42s are equipped with the new hookless type.  They were released in may 2015.  Pretty detailed models, I believe they use a lot of the Iida line parts.  If you want to convert kato has the hook and hookless version of the couplers for sale, you can switch them as you please.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/trainmodel/permalink/2129120270707481/
http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10311163

the replacement parts to switch to hookless couplers
http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10382771

[kvp]

8 hours ago, Welshbloke said:

Came across the site while researching train formations for JNR era EMUs, there are pages of photos of brown ones. I have a six car set of the Kato KuMoHa 11/KuHa 16 pairs along with a KuMoHa 12 and a KuMoNi 13. Initially bought them for their cuteness and ability to run on 150mm radius curves, but have since noticed the comment on the Kato diagrams that four of the two car sets can stand in for a pre-war Yamanote Line service if you quietly ignore the rebuilding which took place later. The captions also tend to list the car types within a unit, which is helpful if you're seeking a realistic formation to model.

Yes, the 11/12/13/16 series Tsurumi cars are rearrangable both as pre war Yamanote (Yamate) and post war Chuo line sets. The online conist infos allow the construction of 2, 4, 6 and even 8 car sets. The rolling stock tractors on the photos are the dual cab variant, a later rebuild and afaik the same variant as the solo 12 series car from Kato. What is missing are the cabless trailers (17 series) used to build for example Mc+T+Mc sets.

[Welshbloke]

It's sad that there's apparently not enough interest for Kato to backdate these and make a proper Yamanote Line set. They already have the chassis and most of the design work for the SaHa 17, but I suppose an eight car set wouldn't really match their marketing the units for minimum space railways. Would be helpful if they made a storage case to hold them, but at least Casco have something suitable.

[marknewton]

15 hours ago, Welshbloke said:

Yes, that's a pair of KuMoHa 12s with a couple of 80 Series cars and a KuHa 111. Anyone know what on earth was going on? Google Translate came up with word salad so I think it needs someone who can understand Japanese properly. Didn't think these types could MU together!

 

The 12s could simply be hauling the other cars dead attached, but I suspect that they all can be run in MU together.

 

Equally interesting to me are photos 21 to 23, showing Kabe line consists. Thanks for the link! :)

 

All the best,

 

Mark.

[Welshbloke]

You can spend a surprising amount of time clicking the links on the main site here:

 

http://kokuden.net/

 

Some text, some photo galleries. Came across it a while ago and assumed it was well known. Just have a click around and see what you find.

[kvp]

7 hours ago, marknewton said:

The 12s could simply be hauling the other cars dead attached, but I suspect that they all can be run in MU together.

They were used as rolling stock tractors. The air brakes are compatible but afaik not much otherwise. The 1x cars were compatible with each other though but imho some were set up as married pairs and you needed both to be operational. The 12 series dual cabs were a rebuild to allow single car operation.

[Welshbloke]

Notice that you can see three raised pantographs. The MoHa 80 would have to be powering in order for the 12s to cope with the load. So either the 12 Series or the KuHa 111 must be controlling it.

 

I wonder if they hung an MU cable through the gangways on the KuHa 111, and the other vehicles were compatible anyway? I know the KuMoYuNi and KuMoNis converted from old 72 Series stock could MU with 80 Series and 1xx Series, but assumed this was a case of careful electrical engineering during the rebuilding process and involved different sockets depending on what type they were coupled to.

 

The second shot has more 80 Series vehicles but still flanked by a pair of 12 Series and with a random KuHa 111, so clearly this happened at least twice.

[Kiha66]

I think the Kuha 111 already has MU connections on the front just like most JNR EMUs, I believe they were pretty much all compatible with each other.  

[Kiha66]

Another site with amazing photos, although these are 51 and 73 series.  The whole site is definitely worth a look, I've used some of the pictures for inspiration and references.

http://railwayinmemory.sakura.ne.jp/HP079(1)_EC68,51_79,73_Kansai.html

http://railwayinmemory.sakura.ne.jp/index.html

[scotspensioner]

Thank you Kiha 66 for putting up these links. I found them very interesting. Many thanks!

[kvp]

11 hours ago, Welshbloke said:

Notice that you can see three raised pantographs. The MoHa 80 would have to be powering in order for the 12s to cope with the load. So either the 12 Series or the KuHa 111 must be controlling it.

 

The second shot has more 80 Series vehicles but still flanked by a pair of 12 Series and with a random KuHa 111, so clearly this happened at least twice.

The text under the images:

Quote

 

Tokaido Line Downward Forwarding
12018 + 87033 + 80100 + Tc111-487 + 12054

1975.10.21. Yokohama

Tokaido Line Downward Forwarding
12018 + 80100 + 87312 + 80349 + 86082 + Moha 111 + 110-47 + 12054 
1975.11.13. Oboe

Tokaido Line Downward Forwarding
12001 + 68093 + 44801
1975.11.18 Yokohama

 

 

So these were rolling stock transfers and afaik modern transfers with a pair of KuMoYa tractors (some rebuilt KuMoHa101-s) were done with only the two tractors powering and middle cars needing air or auxiliary power for the compressors. This means if it is possible to raise the pantographs, then the moved set has at least one up for auxiliary power and air compressors to work. In case of incompatible cars (like locomotive haulage with a coupler adaptor), a working subset (a married group of cars, like a Tc+Mp+M' group) is attached on both sides of the actually moved cars to provide auxiliary power, brake air and on modern sets, brake commands. The 3rd case seems to be that a single moha12 was able to move two cars alone. The rear motor car still has a pantograph up, probably for auxiliary power, but if it were in a running condition, then the two car set could very well move on its own and the 12 series car would have been not needed.

 

[Welshbloke]

Not so sure about that. I have the Kato diagram for the KuMoYa 90s they made a few years ago which shows (amongst others) a single one shifting a pair of 113 Series MoHas, a 103 Series KuMoHa/MoHa, and a KuHa 111. Can't really see a single power car rebuilt from an old 72 Series dragging five coaches around. I can however see it providing a cab to control that formation, with the KuHa on the back providing tail lights and the ability to reverse if needed.

 

I guess what puzzled me about the original photo is not realising that 1xx and earlier units had compatible MU systems, or that apparently unaltered KuMoHa 12s were used as tractors.

 

[kvp]

31 minutes ago, Welshbloke said:

Can't really see a single power car rebuilt from an old 72 Series dragging five coaches around. I can however see it providing a cab to control that formation, with the KuHa on the back providing tail lights and the ability to reverse if needed.

The original cars were already built as tractors, so the original 31 series cars had 100 kW motors, just a bit less than the 110 kW motors of the 103 series or the 120 kW of the 113 series and they were designed to be used in Mc+Tc pairs and were used with extra trailers added in the middle, shifting the in service ratio down to 1M2T from the original 1M1T. An empty train has less total weight and for stock transfers the high accelerations are not required, so a 2 car moha12 pair could easily move as much as 6 or 8 standard 20 meter cars. (a ratio of 1M3T or 1M4T) Btw. the 12 series cars on the photos were already a double rebuild from the 31 series and later 34 series. Many modern shunters have less than 400 kW of power, so imho moving empty stock with only the moha12 motor cars powering was possible.

 

ps: Any MU operation between all these motor units would be quite bumpy as the gear ratios are different, so the same control step would give widely different speeds at the wheels.