EF63 Book Burning

[Kiha66]

Came across this video of the last days of Yokokawa engine depot, seems that as the EF63 was being retired and the Usui Pass line shut down the maintenance department just burned most of the documents and drawings in a pit off to the side of the depot.  Man, I wish I could have been there to save some of the documents.   

 

[Pashina12]

That's inexcusable. :(

[cteno4]

Figure it would have brought some money on the rail fan circles...

 

jeff

[westfalen]

The railway museum now at the site would have loved all that.

 

The thing that intrigued me was the next scene showing a guy with a long stick holding the pantograph against the overhead until the loco had enough air pressure to hold it up.

[Socimi]

 

On 23/12/2017 at 7:09 AM, Kiha66 said:

the maintenance department just burned most of the documents and drawings in a pit off to the side of the depot.

 

 

Why they would had to burn the documents? They're not state secrets after all... 

Not even considering to store them in some JNR archive of some kind...

[cteno4]

I’m assuming some were saved somewhere most likely. I would have thought open trash burning though would be frowned upon in japan. At least paper can be recycled...

 

jeff

[Kiha66]

I remember (at least in rural Sasebo/Nagasaki) seeing quite a few small backyard fires where people seemed to be burning some sort of trash.  Some of it may have been plant debris getting disposed of, although I really wish I had taken a closer look.  

[katoftw]

55 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

I’m assuming some were saved somewhere most likely. I would have thought open trash burning though would be frowned upon in japan. At least paper can be recycled...

 

jeff

Different era, actions are different to today's era.  Hind sight is a wonderful thing.  We can look back now and see the damage and loss created by their actions.  But it is just the way things were back then.

[katoftw]

19 hours ago, westfalen said:

The railway museum now at the site would have loved all that.

 

The thing that intrigued me was the next scene showing a guy with a long stick holding the pantograph against the overhead until the loco had enough air pressure to hold it up.

No secondary batteries and aux compressors in those days I guess?

[Kiha66]

2 minutes ago, katoftw said:

No secondary batteries and aux compressors in those days I guess?

 

I think it was just a case of "keep it simple". The locomotives are always stored at the same depot where the pole is a few feet away, and probably they maintain enough air to raise the pantagraph on their own if its soon enough after shut down.  I thought it was neat how the compressor starts automaticly as soon as there is power and it realizes the air pressure is low.

[kvp]

1 hour ago, Kiha66 said:

I think it was just a case of "keep it simple". The locomotives are always stored at the same depot where the pole is a few feet away, and probably they maintain enough air to raise the pantagraph on their own if its soon enough after shut down.  I thought it was neat how the compressor starts automaticly as soon as there is power and it realizes the air pressure is low.

You have to set the main breaker to ON and the compressor to automatic first, but yes, after that it starts whenever the air pressure is low and there is power. This is why most pneumatic door emu-s have that compressor noise once the train gets into the station and open the doors. Usually the brakes don't use up that much air if used together with the electric brakes, but the doors do, so the compressor kicks in right after the doors are opened. If the train stays at the platform long enough, the compressors mostly switch off, just to turn on again right after the doors are closed. (if the traction motors are loud enough, this won't be heard)

 

For the locomotives in question, some very old ones had manual startup compressors and not much of a battery backup, so either the pole, filling with an air hose through the train line connector or hand pumping.

[Socimi]

On 25/12/2017 at 10:35 PM, katoftw said:

No secondary batteries and aux compressors in those days I guess?

 

Maybe the batteries were dead and there was no external compressor to be found, so they used the pole to raise the pantograph and then charge the batteries via the overhead lines. 

[kvp]

1 hour ago, Socimi said:

 

Maybe the batteries were dead and there was no external compressor to be found, so they used the pole to raise the pantograph and then charge the batteries via the overhead lines. 

Also most battery systems were much lower voltage than the compressor operating voltage. For an 1000 to 1500 V DC loco, it seems like a trivial idea to power the compressor off the overhead, so the rotary converter that outputs the battery charging voltage doesn't have to supply the compressor. This means the batteries are only usable for the control systems and the headlights. (and powering small auxiliary equipment like the cab radio) Common battery voltages were between 12V to 72V, so anything above that would have been ran from the main supply. This means even with fully charged batteries an empty air tank means an external way is needed to build up the air pressure. On the other hand, the auxiliary systems for old locomotives were really simple compared to today. (for AC locomotives with tap changer controls, the compressor, cooling fans and the train heating/lighting was run from a fixed tap point AC source, for multisystem locos, this was often set to the same average voltage as the flat DC overhead voltage and universal AC/DC motors were used for ventillaton and as motors for motor generator sets)

 

For the air tanks, afaik you have to dump all air from the main reservoir before brake system maintenance, so on the first startup, you have to charge the tanks manually. This is how the manual startup pump came to be on AC locos as using a long stick on 18-25 kV AC would have been a bad idea unless said stick was made of insulators.

[Das Steinkopf]

On 27 December 2017 at 3:23 AM, kvp said:

For the air tanks, afaik you have to dump all air from the main reservoir before brake system maintenance, so on the first startup, you have to charge the tanks manually. This is how the manual startup pump came to be on AC locos as using a long stick on 18-25 kV AC would have been a bad idea unless said stick was made of insulators.

 

If you have a look at the staff that he is using it appears to have at least three different sections and when the pantograph is getting close to the communication wire he is only holding the bottom section of the staff. A bit over 25 years ago when I was working as an electrican on the railway I had to manually switch off the high voltage feeds (33kV AC) into the traction station yards, for that I would use a four section staff that was made out of wood, bakelite, poly carbonate and fiberglass, I would have to screw all of the sections together to make it as it was over 6m long assembled. 

Edited December 29, 2017 by Das Steinkopf

[kvp]

21 minutes ago, Das Steinkopf said:

If you have a look at the staff that he is using it appears to have at least three different sections and when the pantograph is getting close to the communication wire he is only holding the bottom section of the staff. A bit over 25 years ago when I was working as an electrican on the railway I had to manually switch off the high voltage feeds (33kV AC) into the traction station yards, for that I would use a four section staff that was made out of wood, beakelite, poly carbonate and fibrglass, I would have to screw all of the sections together to make it as it was over 6m long assembled. 

Yes, in this case it was used with 1500V DC. For high voltage AC, you would need something with better insulation and for example bakelite is a pretty good one. For 1500V, a dry long wooden pole is enough. The 3 section wooden pooles with hooks are still in use in Hungary for trolleybus pole fishing in case of a dewirement. (pretty common when turnouts or crossings are ran through too fast or if the bus runs into a deeper pothole at speed) Also, some old trams used ropes for pulling the pantographs up manually for startup and even older ones had coil springs and needed ropes to actually hold them down. (the second one can't automatically lower the pantograph in case of an integrity fault, unlike the pneumatic variant)

 

I was really surprised when i first saw what an original series V43 locomotive has as equipment as it's pretty basic even with MU controls and the old continous trackcircuit based ATC installed. (works very much like an ED75) On big advantage of this is that there are very few components that could break and most of them are easy to repair or replace. A DC locomotive or EMU is even more simple with early trams being the most bare bones electric trains possible.

[marknewton]

On 23/12/2017 at 5:09 PM, Kiha66 said:

Came across this video of the last days of Yokokawa engine depot, seems that as the EF63 was being retired and the Usui Pass line shut down the maintenance department just burned most of the documents and drawings in a pit off to the side of the depot.

 

Its an interesting video, but I think that most of what's shown being burnt is just the usual rubbish that accumulates in any loco depot. I reckon the EF63s would have retained their logbooks until they were actually withdrawn, and master copies of their documentation would have been kept. I've noticed that many preserved locos in Japan still have their logbooks, and the museums all seem to have extensive archival holdings.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[katoftw]

Also you see the guys squatting down going though each document.  At one point you see one guy have a discussion with other out of camera shot and then some nodding in agreeance, and the document in his hand doesn't make it towards the discard fire pile.

[marknewton]

On 25/12/2017 at 12:53 PM, westfalen said:

The railway museum now at the site would have loved all that.

 

The thing that intrigued me was the next scene showing a guy with a long stick holding the pantograph against the overhead until the loco had enough air pressure to hold it up.

 

Been there, done that on our 46 class electric locos. The later 85 and 86 class locos had a foot pump that would charge the pantograph reservoir, which was normally charged from the main res. Likewise our older double-deck EMU stock. The high tension switchgear cabinets on the 46s had interlocks on the doors. If they were opened while there was power they'd send the current straight to earth. I was working at Delec one day with the shed driver and he asked me to put the pans up on a 46 that had been worked on earlier by the fitters. I didn't think to check that everything was boxed up inside the thing, so when I raised the pan with the big stick there was a massive bang, arcs, sparks, smoke and the substation tripped out with more loud bangs and flashes. There was an electrical branch gang working there, and they all came galloping over in a mad rush to see what had happened. I asked the shed driver what I should do, and he said, "Go and hide in the mealroom until I calm these blokes down".  I never did that again. :(

 

We used to have a job where we would prepare a train for traffic that was stabled overnight in the storage road at Bondi Junction, deep underground in a dead-end tunnel. It was always unpleasantly warm and humid there, so you'd spend a hot and sweaty 5 minutes or so pumping madly to get the pan up on the front car. Once it was up you could rake a breather while the compressor on the front car charged the main reservoirs throughout the train, then you could press the pantograph raise button and get the rest of the cars on the air. Our modern EMUs all have low-voltage pantograph compressors that can run off the batteries, so there's no great physical effort involved in getting them on air after they've been stabled.

 

Our single-deck EMUs had a small reservoir you had to remember to charge when stabling them to get the pans up the next morning. If you forgot, or the air leaked away, it was a job for the big stick if you couldn't use the shop supply air or bludge off the air from another train. Been there, done that too! :)

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

Edited December 29, 2017 by marknewton

[marknewton]

On 27/12/2017 at 3:23 AM, kvp said:

For the air tanks, afaik you have to dump all air from the main reservoir before brake system maintenance, so on the first startup, you have to charge the tanks manually.

 

That would depend on how the air system was configured. On anything I've worked on the main res, auxiliary res, brake valve and brake cylinders all had isolating cocks, so the only time you'd ever drain air from the main res is if you were actually working on it.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[kvp]

7 hours ago, marknewton said:

That would depend on how the air system was configured.

Also on operating procedures. Some companies require the air to be dumped before reversing at a terminus, while others just require the parking brakes to be on. The latter for example allows air operated doors to auto close or to be selectively opened while the train is parked and the cabs are not manned.

[marknewton]

On 30/12/2017 at 7:51 AM, kvp said:

Also on operating procedures. Some companies require the air to be dumped before reversing at a terminus, while others just require the parking brakes to be on.

 

"Dumping the air" just means you've exhausted all the air in the brake pipe. You're not touching the air in the main reservoir.

 

As an example, the trains I work have Westinghouse "Westcode" EP brake. When we change ends at a terminus we blow the brake pipe down to zero pressure and apply the spring parking brake. We don't release any air from the main reservoir during that process. This photo shows the brake gauges immediately after cutting out the cab on arrival at a terminus. You'll see that the brake pipe pressure is at zero, the brake cylinders have about 325kpa in them, and the main res is almost fully charged at 700kpa.

 

You would never attempt to discharge the main reservoir in regular service. Apart from anything else, the only way it could be done would be to either go under the car and open the drain cock, or go around to the front and open the main res pipe tap on the coupler. Neither are things train crew are trained or authorised to do in normal circumstances.

 

 

I don't know what brake schedule Hungarian EMUs have, but I'd be very surprised if there is any significant difference in either their operating principle or procedures. 

 

All the best,

 

Mark.

[kvp]

48 minutes ago, marknewton said:

I don't know what brake schedule Hungarian EMUs have, but I'd be very surprised if there is any significant difference in either their operating principle or procedures. 

This differs for each type, but for example the HEV suburban emus (type IX and X, 20 meter cars) have only a few full train door movements worth of air and if you turn off all cabs, then the compressors won't turn on. This also means if the doors have to be opened back up and closed again, then they will need a bit of time to charge up the train air line to close the doors and release the brakes. Also you engage the parking brakes by venting the train line and disengage by filling it. This prevents rollaways when a not properly parked but powered down train looses air line pressure over time. You have to vent all air to remove the brake handle for switching cabs and successfully fill from ambient to full pressure to move the train again. (there was an accident in the past when a train started with buffered air only and rolled down a long slope into a packed terminus when it ran out) As a sideeffect (and fix) loosing air from the train line also unlocks the pneumatic doors and shorts the motors to the electric track brakes. In case of a train break the cars will automatically brake with air, motor and track brakes, engage the spring loaded parking brakes (for added brake power) and release (but not open) all doors for evacuation. Pretty primitive but this has worked in the past 56 years (the oldest unrebuilt ones still in use don't even have air operated pantographs either, so you have to pull and tie them down with a rope, this was pretty standard for most DC trains in the past up till the original pcc based tatras in 1980, those didn't even use any air).

 

Some modern sets lack a few safeties, like through air or brake lines and use a digital bus also for emergency braking. Newer french metro sets loose up to 50% brake power in case of emergency appication compared to a service application, this has caused one rear ending so far, the manufacturer documentation say one is expected every 2.5-3 years due to software faults, so atm speed limits are imposed on them until they are somehow rebuilt with german technology and to top it off half the sets have middle trailers sandwitched in fully unbraked. The EU is investigating the corruption needed to push them into service against regulations.

 

The older straight air Böcker system had a single train line with a driving cab tank only, good for up to 3 cars and no air operated doors. Only a few museum units use this nowdays. (in daily service on 5 lines during tourist season) To be sure, the rear car hand brake wheel is usually operated by an assistant driver for each stop.

 

Mainline trains are 20-25 kV AC since 1922 and built to a different standard using standard westinghouse passenger train brakes with manual parking brakes only. Pantographs are air operated since the beginning. They are usually not allowed into street traffic and the oldest ones still in use are slam doors, (inward opening types, so they could run with doors left open) while newer old stock closes the doors on brake release and unlatch below 5 km/h. Modern stock (past 1984) are transistor controlled with local door controls and electric doors.

 

So in short, it's a complete mess with around a 100 years worth of technology running on the lines. And some of the newer ones have the most problems design wise.