Gavino200's Layout phase II - Modeling

[cteno4]

Paul is spot on subways are cool but should be in something like a pullout drawer. Everyone that I have heard do one built in has cursed themselves in the long run in getting acces to fix things, clean and pull off derailments! 

 

Gradients are alwaus a challenge. We gave up on them for the club layout early on as just too many issues for a temp setups and require more hands on running. Layouts are always a bit exercise in tradeoffs! 

 

Inobus idea of a helix for below layout storage can also get combined with toni’s Transfer table drawer! Could have a large drawer or even a stack of them that connect to a helix and you can just pull the drawer out to get to the particular track and drive it onto the helix. Packs the most amount of storage in and elimates a butt load of points....

 

jeff

[gavino200]

8 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

Paul is spot on subways are cool but should be in something like a pullout drawer. Everyone that I have heard do one built in has cursed themselves in the long run in getting acces to fix things, clean and pull off derailments! 

 

Gradients are alwaus a challenge. We gave up on them for the club layout early on as just too many issues for a temp setups and require more hands on running. Layouts are always a bit exercise in tradeoffs! 

 

Inobus idea of a helix for below layout storage can also get combined with toni’s Transfer table drawer! Could have a large drawer or even a stack of them that connect to a helix and you can just pull the drawer out to get to the particular track and drive it onto the helix. Packs the most amount of storage in and elimates a butt load of points....

 

jeff

 

The subway I was thinking of is essentially the same idea as the above discussed tunnel project. The whole tunnel would be open and detailed. Except it would run along a straight line and have a couple of stops. Access shouldn't be a problem. Then for the rest of the  layout it would run in the open "above ground" but at the same physical level. 

 

I've seen pictures of Toni's "transfer table" but I could never work out what on earth it is. 

[cteno4]

Basically it’s a reverse transfer table. Usually the moving table just moves one track/train between many stationary tracks. Toni’s moves all the storage tracks on a sliding drawer to line up the storage track you want to run onto the stationary layout track.

 

in this situation it’s great as if the layout track is at the front of the drawer as you pull out the drawer you line up any track in the drawer you want to with the layout track. Plus opening the drawer all the way out shows the whole yard of tracks in the drawer.

 

it also elimates the yard ladder of points that takes up a lot of room, costs a lot, and can be cranky snaking trains thru sometimes. The drawers could be like 3-4’ wide to hold like 8-10car trains.

 

this was discussed a lot way back w.o the helix and just slide in the drawer of trains you want out of a rack of drawers to plop on the layout. Helix relieves not having to move the drawer to use in place.

 

jeff

[cteno4]

Gavin,

 

dont be afraid to modify your track plan if you are not feeling good about it. It does not look like you are too deep into it to change if you want. It’s important to be happy with how it runs before you spend a huge amount of time doing scenery and detailing.

 

layout programs are great ways to play with different ideas and you have a fair amount of track to then try doing some mockups of them in real and play anbit with them in trains. For doing more viaduct you can just use regular track and a piece of corrugated cardboard under them and some rectangles made out of cardboard for supports. Play and experiment, that’s my mantra...

 

jeff

[Pauljag900]

Gavin,

jeff is spot on,if you re not happy then stop now and do nt ever be afraid to change it buddy the grades or inclines are a pain in the ass,some Trains can handle them and some can t so you ll need to pick and choose which Trains run which line to overcome the issues with them,bear in mind that it puts extra strain on the motors too,as I said,I ve done away with them completely on my proposed new layout but will still have three levels,4”,2”and ground level,I may even go to 6”height if I decide to take it over the tram layout but that’s a decision for the future when I get that far.

i ll do a sketch of how I designed a subway line

 

[Pauljag900]

Appologies for the bad drawing but like you I m no artist😂😂😂😂

But you get the idea👍

[katoftw]

So you wanna make something like this:-

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10250756

[Pauljag900]

Good find there kato👍👍the only downside for me would be that it has a wall on the back and front,tho I suppose you could modify it to remove or leave off the front wall.👍

[railsquid]

5 hours ago, gavino200 said:

I've realized through making this thread that there are things about this layout that I'm very disappointed about. I've found myself sort of forming ideas about my 'next layout' more than being excited about this one. 

 

We've just had a little family conference, and I'm thinking of making some profound changes. My son is excited, and so am I. My wife is super supportive about this too.So I think I'll do it. 

 

He're what I'm thinking.

 

1. Get rid of the incline. Raise the entire main double track including the station. 

2. Put a double subway line at layout ground level. Raise the ground level at the front of the layout with foam so that the subway is underground at the front of the layout. Slope the "ground level" down to layout level at the middle of the board, so that the subway becomes an overground train at the back of the board. That brings us up to four trains running at once.

 

3. Install a helix at the corner of the L-Shaped part of the layout and create an 'under-table' yard at the far end of the room. 

4. Fit in a few trams or  monorail, or moving bus somewhere and you'd pretty much have my dream layout.

 

What do you guys think?

 

After several years of experiment, thought and messing about I realised an elevated double-track loop would be the most flexible solution providing a decent "mainline", while allowing more space at "ground level" for miscellaneous operations (local line, freight, trams etc.).

 

[Pauljag900]

2 hours ago, railsquid said:

 

After several years of experiment, thought and messing about I realised an elevated double-track loop would be the most flexible solution providing a decent "mainline", while allowing more space at "ground level" for miscellaneous operations (local line, freight, trams etc.).

 

You re spot on there squid👍They re more trouble than they re worth and take up space and that’s why I m going for the viaduct track at the same height all around.I ve only got an area 8x8 to work with so the plan is a bit limiting but I think I ve managed to achieve what I wanted which is as many rains running as possible,maximum viewing and as many trains on the layout as I can fit.

time will tell.👍

[cteno4]

Space, just like the real world! 🚅

 

Viaducts also help with better roadway paths as well. Inclines require you to run the trains to get them to do well and you can’t sit and watch. Granted it’s fun to run the trains with the throttle but you may not always want to do that and just let them run. as Paul notes some trains also just don’t do well on inclines. 

 

Again important to set up tracks and just play with various configurations to see what works for you in running trains and hownthat configuration affects the space you have for scenery and what you want there. Again playing with paper roads, buildings and even boxes and mocking up a few scenery ideas with cardboard and crumpled paper help with all this planning. You can really have fun with this process and make it a whole fun process with your son as well.

 

hitting a good sized bump in the middle of the first layout construction can be a real killer on your momentum, so best to do things to have those be smaller bumps earlier on where you don’t loose much momentum and you actually pick up steam on the other side of the bumps as you have solved a problem and see an even better path ahead. This is very important with first layouts. Later your past experiences can come in and help a lot, but always room tomtry new things and not let yourself get too locked into something.

 

Layout planning software is a great way to start fiddling with layout ideas, but it’s not a great idea to just go for broke and say that’s it. Really good to try to mock what you can of it up with what track you have and even cardboard cutouts on the table to help visualize how it works (and runs if you have the track) and how it’s going to work with your buildings and scenery. Our usual view of a layout is and oblique 30-45 degree off horizontal which is way different than the gods eye view from direct over head of planning software. Most folks cant do the visualization switch in their heads (even most deisngers, that’s why the masters still build a whole series of 3d design models in the process) so really important to do some plan refinement looking it as you will be playing with it. You will find interesting views of the trains and scenes your really like and then may want to rearrange the track plan to promote those. For example, A lot of times may building scenes get stuck in the middle of a layout due to track loops, but usually this then really limits the interesting views of those scenes. Having trans disappear from view and reappear can also really help break up the loop loop feel, but you don’t need to do tunnels all the time to block the view some, but this can be hard to visualize in a top plan view. 

 

other idea is to think of this layout as just a learning run like inobu suggested ntrak module. Go ahead and finish off this layout but give it s set time like a year and don’t get crazy about doing the ultimate in things on it, use it to learn scenery and wiring and such and just make it fun. Then while you are doing this start working on and refining thrnlist of things you like, don’t like, need and want for the next layout and start planning and experiment what you can on the first layout with these some. If you limit the investment in 1.0 to mainly learning and experimenting and not doing the ultimate end all then it’s less pain to whack at it some in the process as well as tear it down and go to 2.0 eventually.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[gavino200]

10 hours ago, katoftw said:

So you wanna make something like this:-

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10250756

 

Yes, they're awesome. Sumida crossing has a good go at it too. I researched this a long time ago. I think I have pictures saved from every model train subway station on the internet. I also have a ton of pictures from the subway museum in Tokyo.

 

But I also want open tunnels. Tunnel details are almost as interesting to me as the stations. Maybe more so since they're so fleeting and hard to see.

 

The dream would be two layer subway stations. Lower level for the trains and platforms, upper level for shops and turnstiles.

[gavino200]

11 hours ago, Pauljag900 said:

Appologies for the bad drawing but like you I m no artist😂😂😂😂

But you get the idea👍

 

Yes, I like it. But I don't just want to see the stations. I want to see the trains in the tunnels too. So in my version the train would be in the tunnel at the front of the layout, but the sides and back of the loop would be overground sections.

 

The loop would be all one level. The modeled "ground level" would change.

[gavino200]

This is my first attempt at Anyrail. I'm going to split the overall train project into two parts. 

1. Keep working on the layout until I'm happy with it.

2. Start learning to model with T-trak. 

 

This is the current layout board. I'm seriously thinking about redoing or extending it.

 

Edited December 9, 2017 by gavino200

[gavino200]

57 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

Space, just like the real world! 🚅

 

Viaducts also help with better roadway paths as well. Inclines require you to run the trains to get them to do well and you can’t sit and watch. Granted it’s fun to run the trains with the throttle but you may not always want to do that and just let them run. as Paul notes some trains also just don’t do well on inclines. 

 

Again important to set up tracks and just play with various configurations to see what works for you in running trains and hownthat configuration affects the space you have for scenery and what you want there. Again playing with paper roads, buildings and even boxes and mocking up a few scenery ideas with cardboard and crumpled paper help with all this planning. You can really have fun with this process and make it a whole fun process with your son as well.

 

hitting a good sized bump in the middle of the first layout construction can be a real killer on your momentum, so best to do things to have those be smaller bumps earlier on where you don’t loose much momentum and you actually pick up steam on the other side of the bumps as you have solved a problem and see an even better path ahead. This is very important with first layouts. Later your past experiences can come in and help a lot, but always room tomtry new things and not let yourself get too locked into something.

 

Layout planning software is a great way to start fiddling with layout ideas, but it’s not a great idea to just go for broke and say that’s it. Really good to try to mock what you can of it up with what track you have and even cardboard cutouts on the table to help visualize how it works (and runs if you have the track) and how it’s going to work with your buildings and scenery. Our usual view of a layout is and oblique 30-45 degree off horizontal which is way different than the gods eye view from direct over head of planning software. Most folks cant do the visualization switch in their heads (even most deisngers, that’s why the masters still build a whole series of 3d design models in the process) so really important to do some plan refinement looking it as you will be playing with it. You will find interesting views of the trains and scenes your really like and then may want to rearrange the track plan to promote those. For example, A lot of times may building scenes get stuck in the middle of a layout due to track loops, but usually this then really limits the interesting views of those scenes. Having trans disappear from view and reappear can also really help break up the loop loop feel, but you don’t need to do tunnels all the time to block the view some, but this can be hard to visualize in a top plan view. 

 

other idea is to think of this layout as just a learning run like inobu suggested ntrak module. Go ahead and finish off this layout but give it s set time like a year and don’t get crazy about doing the ultimate in things on it, use it to learn scenery and wiring and such and just make it fun. Then while you are doing this start working on and refining thrnlist of things you like, don’t like, need and want for the next layout and start planning and experiment what you can on the first layout with these some. If you limit the investment in 1.0 to mainly learning and experimenting and not doing the ultimate end all then it’s less pain to whack at it some in the process as well as tear it down and go to 2.0 eventually.

 

cheers

 

jeff

 

This is sage advice Jeff. Thanks.

 

I'm not going to go nuts tearing everything down immediately. I'm excited about starting to learn modeling techniques, but I think T-Trak with satisfy that interest. 

 

I'm going to use this layout to play with levels for the time being. The first thing I'll do is elevate the whole main line. I'm really through watching supposed super-trains struggling up a hill. 

 

I think I'll also try the idea of modelling a subway train. It'll be fun. We'll learn from it. And who knows. It might be enough to get the whole subway idea out of our system.

 

I feel this is more of a breakthrough than a setback. 

[Pauljag900]

40 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

 

Yes, I like it. But I don't just want to see the stations. I want to see the trains in the tunnels too. So in my version the train would be in the tunnel at the front of the layout, but the sides and back of the loop would be overground sections.

 

The loop would be all one level. The modeled "ground level" would change.

ah,i did nt realise you did nt want to see the stations,in that case the option,certainly along the front of the layout,would be to just fabricate the subwayalong the front of the board and fit a piece of glass along it,it could work,just a thought.

[Pauljag900]

27 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

 

This is sage advice Jeff. Thanks.

 

I'm not going to go nuts tearing everything down immediately. I'm excited about starting to learn modeling techniques, but I think T-Trak with satisfy that interest. 

 

I'm going to use this layout to play with levels for the time being. The first thing I'll do is elevate the whole main line. I'm really through watching supposed super-trains struggling up a hill. 

 

I think I'll also try the idea of modelling a subway train. It'll be fun. We'll learn from it. And who knows. It might be enough to get the whole subway idea out of our system.

 

I feel this is more of a breakthrough than a setback. 

everything jeff mentions here are all the issues I ve come across,but we learn from them,and the bit about breaking up the loop effect with buildings and scenery is true,it does nt always have to disappear from view completely.My proposed layout is going to be just that but this time I m not in the least bit bothered,by the time its done I m confident it ll look just fine[I may well regret saying that,ha ha] time will tell.

[gavino200]

7 minutes ago, Pauljag900 said:

ah,i did nt realise you did nt want to see the stations,in that case the option,certainly along the front of the layout,would be to just fabricate the subwayalong the front of the board and fit a piece of glass along it,it could work,just a thought.

 

I want the stations too. :)

[gavino200]

As a side note, some interesting subway models from the subway museum in Tokyo. My pics. 

 

 

 

 

 

[gavino200]

 

 

 

[gavino200]

[cteno4]

 

6 hours ago, gavino200 said:

 

I feel this is more of a breakthrough than a setback. 

 

Gavin,

 

this is very good to hear! It was sounding like too many things were twisting around you there, sort of the danger will Robinson moment. 

 

Layout are also a tradeoff of what reasonable space can you carve out to use and what you can reasonably do with a layout in that space. Smart to keep fiddling with the existing layout space to try some new ideas and then if reasonable to expand the benchwork then great! 

 

Ttrak is an an awsome way to learn scenery and detailing. They are even pretty to put on a bookshelf for display. You can also build scenery chunks on them that are removable like the base area around buildings so you can lift them off later for the main layout if you decide to. Great way to just try lots of different scenery and scenes too to see what you really like.

 

look at the simple U design ones as they are very easy to make with just 3/4” plank stock and even a hand saw or sawn up at the lumber yard. Just three slices off the board and done. Want scenery below grade, just flip the U over. Very clean and elegant. Regular boxes are fine, but a lot to cut up and not very cheap as kits (shipping ain’t cheap on them as they are heavy). 

 

Ttrak are great as in a few sessions they can look great and if something screws up, no big loss of time or materials! Can even play with the cutaway tunnel idea on them to see how it looks.

 

keep at it!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[gavino200]

3 hours ago, cteno4 said:

 

 

Gavin,

 

this is very good to hear! It was sounding like too many things were twisting around you there, sort of the danger will Robinson moment. 

 

Layout are also a tradeoff of what reasonable space can you carve out to use and what you can reasonably do with a layout in that space. Smart to keep fiddling with the existing layout space to try some new ideas and then if reasonable to expand the benchwork then great! 

 

Ttrak is an an awsome way to learn scenery and detailing. They are even pretty to put on a bookshelf for display. You can also build scenery chunks on them that are removable like the base area around buildings so you can lift them off later for the main layout if you decide to. Great way to just try lots of different scenery and scenes too to see what you really like.

 

look at the simple U design ones as they are very easy to make with just 3/4” plank stock and even a hand saw or sawn up at the lumber yard. Just three slices off the board and done. Want scenery below grade, just flip the U over. Very clean and elegant. Regular boxes are fine, but a lot to cut up and not very cheap as kits (shipping ain’t cheap on them as they are heavy). 

 

Ttrak are great as in a few sessions they can look great and if something screws up, no big loss of time or materials! Can even play with the cutaway tunnel idea on them to see how it looks.

 

keep at it!

 

cheers

 

jeff

 

Thanks Jeff. I ran the trains this evening and just had fun with them. I really like this layout and have enjoyed it a lot. So even though the incline has been a frustration, it's been easy to ignore because of just how much fun the layout is.

 

I was a bit surprised how much I enjoyed doing the station interior and lighting it up. I can't wait to do more. I think the 'visible tunnel' will be fun to try. So yes, I'll make a short section and see how it looks.

 

[Kiha66]

What grade did you use for the incline? Maybe using the add on set to halve the grade would help, although I agree the trains run best on level track.  I'm excited to see what you come up with, its been fun watching the layout progress!  

[cteno4]

That’s cool Gavin, glad to hear it’s still lots of fun! That’s the important thing!

 

if you do move onto another layout eventually most of the details can easily get transplanted so no loss there!

 

enjoy and keep playing!

 

jeff