Gavino200's Layout phase II - Modeling

[gavino200]

14 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

 

 

Clay can be pretty messy to use like this.

 

polystyene insulation foam board is perfect for this and used a lot in making scenery. Usually at the big box store or local builders supply in 1-2" thicknesses. Pink and blue usually (slightly different densities) and brand name formular but others as well. There is liquid nails cement to glue it together. 

 

Is the curve constant radius? If so then just use a yardstick compass to draw the diameter larger and smaller than your track needed. Then use a keyhole/compass Saw to roughly cut it out. Then use 60 grit sandpaper and or a rasp to do the rough rounding and then finer sandpapers. For final you can paint layer and sand smooth then coat in mould release and plaster.

 

easy to experiment and try. It's uber messy carving foam, so do it somewhere you can make a mess and have the shop vac handy as the bits get statically charged and stick to everything. Dust mask as well. But it's quick to do and easy to shape. Most of Las Vegas 3d bling is made like this!

 

 

Agree about the foam. I've carved with it before. A model of an E5 cab for one of my son's school projects. We did it together. Still have it in the train room. I bet I could be more accurate with clay. I also bet there's a ton of tips and instruction on it from the art world. I'm especially hung up on the surface texture. 

 

My plan is to do the whole project on an exact replica of my layout. That way I can try as many methods and iterations as I need until I get it right, without interrupting layout use. I'll also keep the replica in my workroom, rather than the train room, so that it's easier to work on.

[cteno4]

Is all one radius on the tunnel? Then just do like 30 or 45 degree section and replicate, thats the beauty of moulds! 

 

ok gotcha on texture.

 

That is going to be tougher as it will requre raised lines on the negative and they will be very very fine. Also harder to get mould out. Would be fine to just draw the pattern in on the wall with a slightly darker gray marker, but tough to do inside the tunnel wall. Could use sections of matte decals you just print out.

 

older tunnels were done more with forms and the cast lines not so visible. The new tunnel boring machines use the preformed wall modules that are bolted in place and filler squirted behind and have much more noticeable joints.

 

doing joint likes like this could be quite challenging and be the majority of the experimenting and work.

 

really only going to see on a train cam and that's not going to be very clear and going by quickly so this sort of detail may never really be seen.

 

jeff

[gavino200]

This is the basic design of the Seikan tunnel. 

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Seikan_Tunnel_3d_cross_section_1a.svg

 

I'd widen slightly to add the walkway. Also I'd like to include a communicating tunnel (going nowhere) supposedly connecting to the service tunnel. That part wouldn't be too hard to do.

[gavino200]

13 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

 

 

really only going to see on a train cam and that's not going to be very clear and going by quickly so this sort of detail may never really be seen.

 

 

 

No. The front and side of the tunnel will be open.  The tunnel along the layout edge will be a cut-away. The back section will have a lift out section. 

 

The tunnel interior is a major goal in itself. It's going to be completely visible.

 

We're both subway fanatics. We've been staring out windows into darkness at these things for years!!

Edited December 4, 2017 by gavino200

[gavino200]

26 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

 

btw one of the euro n scale does a flanged high speed tunnel entrance and inob did some casting of a Japanese one.

 

 

 

Yes, I remember following that project. Did it ever bear fruit?

[cteno4]

He did a few sets and I have one. Came out very nice. It was designed to to over kato double viaduct.

 

jeff

[gavino200]

Just now, cteno4 said:

He did a few sets and I have one. Came out very nice. It was designed to to over kato double viaduct.

 

jeff

 

Awesome. Do you have a picture of it? Is it on your club layout?

[gavino200]

I do realize this is a (perhaps foolishly) ambitious project btw. We're all agreed that we'll try our best, and if it sucks, it sucks. At least it'll be fun to play with. 

 

I think it'll be interesting.

Edited December 4, 2017 by gavino200

[cteno4]

11 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

 

No. The front and side of the tunnel will be open.  The tunnel along the layout edge will be a cut-away. The back section will have a lift out section. 

 

The tunnel interior is a major goal in itself. It's going to be completely visible.

 

We're both subway fanatics. We've been staring out windows into darkness at these things for years!!

 

Id guess the best way to really get great details for this would be to split the castings at the roof center and then carefully draw In the casting lines and then also do all the seepage staining, weathering, etc. I would make a nice smooth wall that you can then do nice art on. The casting likes will be minuscule at scale even with the precast pieces.

 

nice thing about casting up tunnel chunks is you can make extra to play with detailing ideas and experiment.

 

problem with using clay is that it won't stand up to multiple castings, you would need to make a casting of the full tunnel and that could be a lot of work doing the negative seams.

 

jeff

[cteno4]

6 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

 

Awesome. Do you have a picture of it? Is it on your club layout?

 

I can snap some Picts of it. I intended to retrofit them into the club mountain and then we went to layout 3.0 and sold 2.0. I hoe later next year once 3.0 is running we can add a new module in that had a mountain on it to run the tunnel thru and use the entrances. I think inobu had Picts up on that entrance thread. They are very nicely done and look forward to using them.

 

jeff

[gavino200]

9 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

 

Id guess the best way to really get great details for this would be to split the castings at the roof center and then carefully draw In the casting lines and then also do all the seepage staining, weathering, etc. I would make a nice smooth wall that you can then do nice art on. The casting likes will be minuscule at scale even with the precast pieces.

 

nice thing about casting up tunnel chunks is you can make extra to play with detailing ideas and experiment.

 

problem with using clay is that it won't stand up to multiple castings, you would need to make a casting of the full tunnel and that could be a lot of work doing the negative seams.

 

jeff

 

Ok. I didn't see the significance of your question about radii before. I was in fact thinking of making a negative of the whole tunnel. 

 

But, yes It's the same radius all around for approx 225 degrees, with possible exception of the two transition pieces. I'll have to check the radii on those, 

 

So yes, theoretically I'd only have to make a 45 degree cast, then rinse and repeat. 

 

So durability of the mold would be an issue. 

 

Also, I'd be less intimidated by the sand-and-adjust method of negative making if it were shorter.

 

I wonder if there's another material out there that would be easier to sculpt than foam, but more durable than clay.

Edited December 4, 2017 by gavino200

[gavino200]

Thanks for all your advice Jeff. I'm going to sleep on this and give it some more thought tomorrow.

[cteno4]

Foam is the way to go, like I said it's how most of Las Vegas 3d bling is made. They sculpt it in foam and then coat in hardshell and cast fiberglass mould from them. Then cast foam positives out of the mould she and hard shell them, paint and go. Very tough and light.

 

small negative like this is actually pretty easy and fast to shape and sand and easy and cheap to redo if it screws up! If you carve to deep in a spot just add lightweight joint compound to fill in and the sand down.

 

experiment some

 

cheers

 

jeff

[gavino200]

I've decided to use this area of Ebisu, Tokyo as my inspiration for the "City" part of the layout. It's where we stayed when we visited Tokyo, so I know it fairly well. It's urban with a high-street but it's also residential. It has varied elevation with some hills. Also it has a school, shops, restaurants, narrow streets, and a nice little shrine right in the middle of all that. I think it would be perfect.

 

 

I'm going to try to blend that with a small Tokyo station. I need to find a thread where someone (JR500?) suggested a station to me that had a resemblance to the Kato "Shumyoji" station. 

 

[cteno4]

wow ebisu station certainly has a very interesting set of buildings on top of it, even some sort of rooftop garden. cool oval glass platform walls at one end too. i keep think about doing something different like this on the new JRM layout station, but then the trains are totally hidden in the station!

 

jeff

[gavino200]

Actually it was Kiha66 who suggested the station. This is it. Higashi-Jujo Station. I'm still planning on using this as a model.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Higashi-Jūjō+Station/@35.764961,139.724056,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x601892f4ba7ce701:0x8c75cbca220d7b9f!8m2!3d35.764961!4d139.7262447

 

 

[gavino200]

I'm thinking of altering my station house. If I get rid of the stairway on the far side, I can fit a road. The road would be important for play purposes. I realize it's not necessary for modeling purposes. But would it be ridiculous to have a station building like this with access from only one side?

 

Or I could get rid of access on the front side which would require no alteration. I still have the window that fits in place where the walkway connects. Then I could put a small lane in front.

 

As is now.

 

 

Proposed change.

 

Edited December 6, 2017 by gavino200

[gavino200]

2 hours ago, cteno4 said:

wow ebisu station certainly has a very interesting set of buildings on top of it, even some sort of rooftop garden. cool oval glass platform walls at one end too. i keep think about doing something different like this on the new JRM layout station, but then the trains are totally hidden in the station!

 

jeff

 

Yes, Ebisu station is interesting. But way to big for this project. 

 

I moved my yard about ten inches to the right. This allowed me to make the track connection smoother, but also allows more room for my city. I sacrificed yard line 6 for a future tram line. 

 

I realize I've shot myself in the foot in terms of modeling by having a yard of this size. But I can't imagine running the trains without it. I was looking at the JMR layout last night. I see you guys have a giant yard off to the side for train changes. On the next layout I make I think I'd do something like that instead. Or include a tunnel with a helix leading to a large storage yard under the layout. 

 

Edited December 6, 2017 by gavino200

[gavino200]

I should probably stop sweating about the "station road" issue, and stop thinking about my layout board as a little "world". It's more like a fraction of a small world that exists on and off the board. So any point can be connected to any other by a multitude of possible "off board" connections. 

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2017 by gavino200

[nah00]

On 12/6/2017 at 12:15 PM, gavino200 said:

I'm thinking of altering my station house. If I get rid of the stairway on the far side, I can fit a road. The road would be important for play purposes. I realize it's not necessary for modeling purposes. But would it be ridiculous to have a station building like this with access from only one side?

 

Or I could get rid of access on the front side which would require no alteration. I still have the window that fits in place where the walkway connects. Then I could put a small lane in front.

 

As is now.

 

 

Proposed change.

 

 

I generally follow the rule that 'if I do it there's probably a prototype out there somewhere for it'. My station only has access from one side and I don't think it looks strange.

[gavino200]

7 minutes ago, nah00 said:

 

I generally follow the rule that 'if I do it there's probably a prototype out there somewhere for it'. My station only has access from one side and I don't think it looks strange.

 

Thanks nah00. Appreciate the feedback. I'm leaning toward removing the front walkway as it doesn't require alteration. 

 

I don't have to do this any time soon, so I can mull it over for a while. I'm getting into high gear on the tunnel project. I'm going to spend all my energy on the tunnel until it's done. 

Edited December 7, 2017 by gavino200

[katoftw]

Station access from one side is quite normal.  Harajuku is a famous example.

[Kiha66]

If you get rid of the stairs on the front side you could add a open pedestrian walkway going over the road, like at Higashi-Kanagawa station in Yokohama. 

[gavino200]

I've decided to use a combination of two tunnels for inspiration. The Seikan tunnel in Japan and the Swiss Gotthard tunnel. Both are very similar in internal form. Both have all my requirements - double track,  smooth concrete walls, pipes, cables, dim lights, and a walkway.

 

Aesthetically, I prefer the Seikan. It has a symmetric two radius curvature, that looks very good. Below is an engineering sketch of the Daishimizu Tunnel which has an almost identical design.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daishimizu_Tunnel

 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S088677980300110X

 

The Gotthard tunnel is very similar but has a single radius design.

 

http://www.edristi.in/en/worlds-longest-rail-tunnel/

 

I'm going for the Gotthard design, mainly because it gives an advantage in terms of height to width ratio. As Jeff pointed out the prototypes use larger radius turns than my layout. So if I made the Seikan design wide enough for N-scale, it would have to be taller than the prototype. I want the keep the height to a minimum because I'll be putting my "City" above the tunnel and want as low a gradient as possible leading down from the elevated city. 

 

But I'm going to use the cross-section of the Seikan for the near portal.

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Seikan_Tunnel_entrance_-_dual-gauge_track.jpg

 

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/04/06/national/shinkansen-makes-emergency-stop-hokkaidos-subsea-tunnel/#.WinC7EqnFVI

 

For the far portal, I'd like to use an angle cut tube design like this.

 

https://structurae.net/photos/279952-rauheberg-tunnel

Edited December 7, 2017 by gavino200

[gavino200]

 

I'm researching casting techniques, I've run into a few problems that I have some questions about. But first I'll have to make a few sketches.