Mystery locomotive at the roof of the world

[Nick_Burman]

Maybe someone could help...this loco has been abandoned at Shelby station on the Cerro de Pasco Railway in Peru. It was once used on the 762mm gauge line connecting Huaron mines with the CdeP at Shelby which is located roughly halfway between Cerro and Oroya. Doug Cummings (Extra 2200 South magazine) thinks it is Japanese. I doubt it...it has an European look to it and those trucks say "Ganz-Mavag" to me. However the company which once managed the mines was French-owned.

 

Could any of the Hungarian members delve into it?

 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Mpyubrxi5wE/SlOLzd_SHHI/AAAAAAAAADE/naUES3c_Bbk/s1600-h/Shelby-Huaron+railway+Diesel++Locomotive-Shelby+(4).jpg

 

Cheers NB

Edited September 30, 2017 by Nick_Burman

[velotrain]

At first I thought you meant the North Pole . . . or maybe Darjeeling on the DHR, likely being among the closest rail lines to Everest.

[miyakoji]

Nick, I agree it doesn't look Japanese.  Whatever it is, it looks really narrow and top-heavy.  I wonder what the speed limit would be on its line.

 

How do you like Spilimbergo?  I had a look on Street View, pretty nice.

[velotrain]

4 hours ago, miyakoji said:

it looks really narrow and top-heavy.

 

I thought that also, and wondered if it might have been re-gauged.  However, the body isn't all that wide.

 

[velotrain]

This may well be one of those things that we'll never have an answer for, such as that former Denver & Rio Grande Business Car Frederick that I tried to track in Funabashi.

 

However, I have found a few things, but you may be aware of these already. 

Since I don't know what your initial source was, I have no way to know.

 

 

Railways of Peru    By Rodrigue Lévesque        SEE: https://tinyurl.com/y9khtbk5 

 

 

 

"This railroad that began in 1912 with a 750-mm gauge connected the Shelby station of La Oroya-Cerro de Pasco with the mining center of Huarón. It was in service until 1965 approximately. In Huarón is this diesel locomotive that we could not identify. It is type B-B."

 

From: http://trenesdelperu.blogspot.com/2009/07/ffcc-shelby-minas-de-huaron.html 

 

 

 

Lastly, a potential reason that Doug Cummings might think it is Japanese.  Although, based on the above info, these engines would have been imported about a decade after the Huarón line closed down:

"In July 1973, with international credit, new locomotives, rolling stock, rails and other implements were acquired:

En Estados Unidos , se adquirieron repuestos por un total de $/.12,6 millones de dólares. In the United States , a total of $ 12.6 million was purchased.

En Rumanía , 300 vagones de carga y 32 coches de pasajeros In Romania , 300 freight cars and 32 passenger cars

En Canadá , 12.700 t de rieles. In Canada , 12,700 t of rails.

En Japón , 25 locomotoras diésel, 36 vagones para el transporte mineral, y 40 vagones cisterna. In Japan , 25 diesel locomotives, 36 wagons for mineral transport, and 40 tank wagons."

 

From:   https://tinyurl.com/yb43dmbf 

[Socimi]

I think it may be a indigenously-built loco from some local works, using secondhand Ganz-Mvag bogeys, even if overall it screams "Alsthom". It has nothing of a Japanese locomotive.

 

[velotrain]

32 minutes ago, Socimi said:

I think it may be a indigenously-built loco from some local works, using secondhand Ganz-Mvag bogeys, even if overall it screams "Alsthom". It has nothing of a Japanese locomotive.

 

 

Is there any documented history of that having been done in Peru?  From my limited experience, anything built indigenously would not have something as sophisticated as those recessed cab steps.  Also note the way the light housing is integrated with the hood.  If built at a local shop, they wouldn't waste time on such fancy metalwork, and would just have slapped the light on top of the hood.  It definitely looks like something that was built in a works that has a lot of experience in building locomotives.

 

I agree with Nick that it looks European, with a possible industrial/shunting background, and possibly meter gauge when built.  French engines (and railcars) from the mid-1900's often have the inward-sloping upper cab sides, so I'm guessing it might be of French origin, with these bogies added when the gauge was narrowed - probably before being shipped to Peru.

 

[velotrain]

Question for Nick - do you know the date of the photo you link to?

 

Based on the Railways of Peru book, it seems likely it was pre 1978.

 

"When I visited this locality in 1978, I could not verify the gauges because the lines had all been lifted."

 

- referring to C. -de-P. siding in Shelby

 

Edit:  It looks like the photo on the Trens del Peru site, given as 2009.  However, it seems unlikely that the photo is by the person posting the blog. 

Although, this also doesn't guarantee that the book author made a thorough exploration of Shelby, so it could still be there.

 

I'm also curious about it being stated as 762mm, when 750mm seems the more commonly given gauge.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by velotrain

[kvp]

I looked for it and couldn't find any info that could connect the locomotive to ganz-mavag. This cab shape was also common on some japanese, french, belgian and romanian locomotibes

[Nick_Burman]

On 10/2/2017 at 0:43 AM, miyakoji said:

Nick, I agree it doesn't look Japanese.  Whatever it is, it looks really narrow and top-heavy.  I wonder what the speed limit would be on its line.

 

How do you like Spilimbergo?  I had a look on Street View, pretty nice.

 

It's European of some kind, for sure.

 

Spilimbergo is a fine town and has all services we need. And we have a house with (once we get over with refurbishing it) plenty of "elbow space". Given the mess most big cities have turned into (especially with the immigration problem) living somewhere small and bit out of the way is a better deal. Moving around without a car or a motorcycle (I'm still waiting for the Italian government to issue a promised decree which will allow me to convert my Brazilian license into an Italian one without having to go through exams again...) can be a bit irksome, though - the town has a decent (hourly, half-hourly on peak periods) bus service to Udine and Pordenone, however once one leaves the mainlines and tries to travel "cross-country" schedules dry up. There are some trade-offs...I swapped living in a town with 24 million inhabitants where I lived 800m from a hobby shop to one with 12.000 souls where the nearest hobby shop is 45km away. Bless internet...

 

 

Cheers NB

 

 

 

[Nick_Burman]

On 10/2/2017 at 8:12 AM, velotrain said:

This may well be one of those things that we'll never have an answer for, such as that former Denver & Rio Grande Business Car Frederick that I tried to track in Funabashi.

 

However, I have found a few things, but you may be aware of these already. 

Since I don't know what your initial source was, I have no way to know.

 

 

Railways of Peru    By Rodrigue Lévesque        SEE: https://tinyurl.com/y9khtbk5 

 

 

 

"This railroad that began in 1912 with a 750-mm gauge connected the Shelby station of La Oroya-Cerro de Pasco with the mining center of Huarón. It was in service until 1965 approximately. In Huarón is this diesel locomotive that we could not identify. It is type B-B."

 

From: http://trenesdelperu.blogspot.com/2009/07/ffcc-shelby-minas-de-huaron.html 

 

 

 

Lastly, a potential reason that Doug Cummings might think it is Japanese.  Although, based on the above info, these engines would have been imported about a decade after the Huarón line closed down:

"In July 1973, with international credit, new locomotives, rolling stock, rails and other implements were acquired:

En Estados Unidos , se adquirieron repuestos por un total de $/.12,6 millones de dólares. In the United States , a total of $ 12.6 million was purchased.

En Rumanía , 300 vagones de carga y 32 coches de pasajeros In Romania , 300 freight cars and 32 passenger cars

En Canadá , 12.700 t de rieles. In Canada , 12,700 t of rails.

En Japón , 25 locomotoras diésel, 36 vagones para el transporte mineral, y 40 vagones cisterna. In Japan , 25 diesel locomotives, 36 wagons for mineral transport, and 40 tank wagons."

 

From:   https://tinyurl.com/yb43dmbf 

 

Point is, these 25 locomotives never materialised. Had they been delivered they would had gone to the Central and Southern railways and thus would have been of standard gauge (with, maybe, a few 914mm locos for the Huancavelica and Macchu Picchu lines).

 

And, as you have rightly mentioned, 1973 would have been one decade after the Huaron line had been torn up.

 

 

Cheers NB

 

 

 

 

 

[Nick_Burman]

On 10/2/2017 at 6:34 PM, Socimi said:

I think it may be a indigenously-built loco from some local works, using secondhand Ganz-Mvag bogeys, even if overall it screams "Alsthom". It has nothing of a Japanese locomotive.

 

 

Alas Peru never had any indigenous rolling stock industry capable of building such a locomotive.

 

Cheers NB

[Nick_Burman]

On 10/2/2017 at 7:21 PM, velotrain said:

 

I agree with Nick that it looks European, with a possible industrial/shunting background, and possibly meter gauge when built.  French engines (and railcars) from the mid-1900's often have the inward-sloping upper cab sides, so I'm guessing it might be of French origin, with these bogies added when the gauge was narrowed - probably before being shipped to Peru.

 

 

I think you might have a good lead there. Socimi mentioned Alsthom which might be one possibility. Another name which comes to mind is Billard of Tours (today SOCOFER), the railcar people.

 

I think the locomotive was built like this rather than regauged.

 

Cheers NB

[Nick_Burman]

On 10/2/2017 at 9:02 PM, velotrain said:

Question for Nick - do you know the date of the photo you link to?

 

Based on the Railways of Peru book, it seems likely it was pre 1978.

 

"When I visited this locality in 1978, I could not verify the gauges because the lines had all been lifted."

 

- referring to C. -de-P. siding in Shelby

 

Edit:  It looks like the photo on the Trens del Peru site, given as 2009.  However, it seems unlikely that the photo is by the person posting the blog. 

Although, this also doesn't guarantee that the book author made a thorough exploration of Shelby, so it could still be there.

 

I'm also curious about it being stated as 762mm, when 750mm seems the more commonly given gauge.

 

 

 

Trains Magazine editor Jim Wrinn passed through Shelby a few days ago on a railfan excursion. He took a picture of the loco there, that's how I got wind of it. Jim quoted the gauge as being 30" with is 762mm - however 750mm is the true gauge.

 

Cheers NB

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[velotrain]

2 hours ago, Nick_Burman said:

 

I think the locomotive was built like this rather than regauged.

 

 

I suggested that due to the proposition that the bogies are Hungarian.  The French certainly had plenty of 750mm lines and I assume natively manufactured bogies, so I took this to mean that these trucks are not original equipment, and it looks like meter gauge trucks would have fit under it.  If those turn out to be French trucks - or the entire engine Hungarian, then I'll withdraw this theory ;-) 

 

A regauge would help explain miyakoji's observation, "really narrow and top-heavy" - not that it couldn't have been built to 750mm looking like that.

 

I have a knowledgeable French party looking into this.

 

[Nick_Burman]

On 10/2/2017 at 9:17 PM, kvp said:

I looked for it and couldn't find any info that could connect the locomotive to ganz-mavag. This cab shape was also common on some japanese, french, belgian and romanian locomotibes

 

Kvp, the trucks on the loco look like Ganz-Mavag engineering...they look remarkably like some classes of trucks used under MAV diesels. That's why I asked if any of the Hungarians on the list could pitch in.

 

Cheers NB

[velotrain]

I did a search on Ganz-Mavag and found a Locomotives of Hungary topic on this forum:

 

http://www.railroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?23254-Locomotives-of-Hungary

 

and at the bottom of page 4 there are a pair of photos of Hungarian type M43, which has some similarities to the engine in Peru, including the general cab shape and the inset cab steps.

 

I went to the poster's (it appears to be the work of multiple photographers) site, thinking to look for similar engines of an earlier generation, but was immediately overwhelmed by the sheer number of albums and high quality images.  I'll go back at some point, but don't have the energy to tackle it's massiveness just now.  I suspect our Hungarian - and perhaps other Euro, members may already be familiar with this site:

 

http://english.benbe.hu/

 

 

[kvp]

A typical hungarian narrow gauge power bogie from an Mk48:

https://hu.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fájl:Mk48_forgózsámolyok_(Birincsik_József).JPG

On the other hand the M43 is a Romanian locomotive. Non boxcab Ganz diesels mostly follow a long hood/short hood layout for road switchers and a long hood end cab setup for yard switchers. The only centercab series i know of are the C50 field railway locomotives were built by a forklift company and not Ganz.

[velotrain]

Searching for images of the C50 that kvp mentions, I found a fine photo of one hard at work in typical feldbahn fashion - hauling a train of large logs.

 

I also discovered that there are a surprising number of European industrial narrow gauge lines still in service, sometimes using equipment from the WW2 era.

 

http://www.ingr.co.uk/news_2016.html

 

Explosive slate quarry video linked on the Home page

 

Looking through old news reports, in 2004 their is a brief item on a Croatian fish farm railway - sounds like something they could use in Japan ;-)