Starting over fresh with my first ever model train layout.

[Kiha66]

26 minutes ago, tt0880 said:

But now the layout is, essentially, 3 loops. Yes, a bit boring, but hey, it's my first layout ever and with limited space. When I eventually move to a house (instead of a condo) later in life I'll have more room for a more exciting layout, but I've come to peace with what this is now and I'm pretty dang happy with it.

 

That's the spirit!  I had the same problem, trying to continuously plan realistic and more interesting layouts without actually building anything for years!  Just a loop of track you can use is better than the best layout thats only on paper.  Where did you find the tall kato buildings?  I've been looking for some but most places seem to be sold out.

[cteno4]

Tt,

 

i realize I made a big mistake in my suggestion of widening the double viaduct loop in that I did t realize you had the newer double viaduct with the super elevated track. This means you can’t easily split it at 90 degrees innthe standard banked 180 setup. It goes flat to banked 22.5 easment to 45 banked 3x then banked to flat 22.5 easement

 

The only way to do this expansion this way would be to only use the 22.5 easment and use two 45 from flat to banked to flat in 90, the. You can add the spacer straight track to widen the double viaduct loop, but it means buying 2 more sets of 22.5 easements. You have 6 45 banked tracks with your current 180 end setup and you only need 4 of them if you do the 4. 90 curves.

 

Each 180 end would go like:

 

long straight

flat to banked 22.5 easement curve

banked 45 curve

banked to flat 22.5 easment curve

straight to widen what ever length

flat to banked 22.5 easement curve

banked 45 curve

banked to flat 22.5 easement curve

long straight

 

This will let you widen the double viaduct loop out to the edge of your table to give you the most interior space.

 

Sorry i am so use to thinking the double viaduct with only flat 45 curves after like 18 years of using them and forget the new banked version.

 

we are actually using the above setup with the newer banked track on the new JRM layout.

 

cheers

 

jeff

 

Edited February 9, 2018 by cteno4

[tt0880]

17 hours ago, Kiha66 said:

Where did you find the tall kato buildings?  I've been looking for some but most places seem to be sold out.

I actually got both of them on PlazaJapan's eBay store, but wow, you weren't kidding. I just checked and they're all sold out and any that are there are marked up a ton. Weird, I didn't know there was a shortage!

 

17 hours ago, Kiha66 said:

Just a loop of track you can use is better than the best layout thats only on paper. 

I LOVE this, though! It's very true. I'm excited to just be able to run trains. I can save those more intricate layouts for later in life... For now, I just want to have a thriving Japanese metropolis!

 

17 hours ago, cteno4 said:

The only way to do this expansion this way would be to only use the 45 transition units and use two 45 from flat to banked to flat in 90, the. You can add the spacer straight track to widen the double viaduct loop, but it means buying w pairs of the 45 banked to flat tracks.

 

Thanks for the GREAT info, as always, Jeff. I'm not sure what I'll do with that loop yet, it's possible that I might not need to widen it if I push the whole thing back a little more. But, just in case, do you have part numbers for the 45 degree pieces? I'm not sure if my local train store carries them...

[cteno4]

I cleaned up the post above I had the wrong bits in my head there, but essentially the same.

 

you would need two more of the 20-545 easement pairs. you already have 2 pairs with your current setup. You have all the banked 45 you will need

 

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/KATO-N-20545-Unitrack-Concrete-Tie-Double-Viaduct-p/kat-20545.htm

 

not horrible about $20 shipped i expect from mts if it’s hard for your local shop to order.

 

So each 90 corner (4x of these) will be

22.5 easement flat to banked curve

45 banked curve

22.5 easement banked to flat

 

clear as mud?

 

cheers

 

jeff

Edited February 9, 2018 by cteno4

[inobu]

Tim,

 

I have been going back and forth trying to figure out whats happening. This is what I came up with.

 

You are trying to build a elongated Japanese layout on standard dimension board. Its always going to give you trouble. The city is pressing you to the edge of the board and the viaduct

is creating a bounders that is holding you in    

 

You had a balance here but we always we want more.

 

When you added the station the board needed to grow as well.

 

 

The stations changed everything and started squeezing the layout in both directions.

 

 

There is a certain continuity that needed in a layout thats hard to get in Japanese layouts. The 4x8 makes it harder as well. 

 

As for the remedy.

 

I would go here to see what will fit in the room and support the cityscape you envision.

http://www.katomodels.com/unitrackplan/

 

Next I would go with modules instead.

 

Download this https://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/images/instructions/ST4801-2.pdf

and print out the template page. Layout out your room using their modules to outline the bench work.

 

It look like your room is 12x10. Look on page 22 and modify that 9x9. I think you can put 2 tram cities on it a have the via duct circle 1 city and have the other at ground level.

In any case the modules will allow you a lot of flexibility us utilizing all the components you bought.

 

Just a thought.

 

Inobu

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

Edited February 10, 2018 by inobu

[tt0880]

Inobu, 

Thanks for the great advice. I know I'm squeezing a lot onto a 4x8 board and I know it's not the prettiest or most organized thing, but for my current point in life I think it's best. I live in a condo I rent right now and I plan to for at least a few more years. This layout is good for me because I can essentially just trash the table when I eventually move out and take all of the kato pieces off of it to easily put on my next layout, when I eventually own a house and can make things a lot more permanent. 

 

I feel like the 3 loop setup is OK... I will get to see a lot of trains running. I think the modules are a great idea for when I eventually have a train basement or something like that, but for now I'll have to stick with what I have. 

 

For lack of a better way of phrasing it, do you think it's really so bad that it might be beyond saving? I know the track is close to the edge of the table, but I viewed it more as maximizing my space. What do you think? 

[inobu]

Modules are better for few reasons.

 

1. They allow you to learn as you go and gives you the ability to grow your layout. By the time you are at module 4 you would have learned from a lot your mistakes the key is you can go back and remedy the previous issues.

2. If you were to move or something changes you can remove it. Either sell it and recoupe a little of your investment or give someone the ability to easily take it away.

3. It gives you the ability to avoid rework. Trying to recover your track can be a bit challenging and might cause you a lot of trouble if you demo it out and try to reuse it.

4. The last one. When you move into the house you don't need to start from scratch because cutting the lawn will be the new hobby that comes with the house.

 

Based on the comments you are settling for the sake of progress. That could have you doing another post "Start fresh the sequel "

 

We always get caught up in the I want to run trains now and I want the layout to look like the ones on the internet. Trying to satisfy both of those impulses throws us into a look. The T-Trak in the background shows that the module

format will work for you. I think you just need to formulate a plan that you like and go after it.

 

This is what I see as a start. The top right two modules could be left out. But this how you could lay the bench work out and support the three scenes you want. If you build it high enough you can have storage space under it. 

 

Once you get the bench work in then you can layout your track. (address the "I wanna see it run now") and work your way to the Scenes of grandeur module by module.

 

If anything take a look at the template in my previous and play around with it or down load Anyrail free trial and get something on paper.

Ad hoc layout can be costly just like the network ones.  

 

Inobu    

Edited February 10, 2018 by inobu

[gavino200]

3 hours ago, tt0880 said:

Inobu, 

Thanks for the great advice. I know I'm squeezing a lot onto a 4x8 board and I know it's not the prettiest or most organized thing, but for my current point in life I think it's best. I live in a condo I rent right now and I plan to for at least a few more years. This layout is good for me because I can essentially just trash the table when I eventually move out and take all of the kato pieces off of it to easily put on my next layout, when I eventually own a house and can make things a lot more permanent. 

 

I feel like the 3 loop setup is OK... I will get to see a lot of trains running. I think the modules are a great idea for when I eventually have a train basement or something like that, but for now I'll have to stick with what I have. 

 

For lack of a better way of phrasing it, do you think it's really so bad that it might be beyond saving? I know the track is close to the edge of the table, but I viewed it more as maximizing my space. What do you think? 

 

I agree with inobu on this. My previous layout was a 4x8 rectangle. I had three linked loops and a small yard. I didn't have double viaduct - instead I had one line that wrapped around itself with a raised single viaduct subloop. There's nothing wrong with that. And there's noting 'wrong' with what you have. We had a lot of fun with that set up

 

We changed to a somewhat modular setup when we moved. The benchwork is modular but the foamboard isn't. We'll just cut or remove the foam and take apart the benchwork if we move. I'll probably change mine completely at some stage but I still have a lot to learn with this layout before I do. 

 

But here's the point. The wrap-around type of setup that inobu outlined is more fun to play with. It creates a much better illusion of size than a rectangle loop as the trains actually travel out of your field of vision, and you have to turn your head to follow them. Also, the scenery can be split up into regions more realistically. It just looks better.

 

The rectangular board actually wastes a lot of space, as you need room to walk completely around it. A narrower board that fits against the wall and turns at the room corners, actually doesn't take more space. As long as you build it in a modular fashion you can easily dismantle it and take it with you when you move. You won't regret it.

 

 

[cteno4]

Tt,

 

starting out you just try things ans with time learn what you like and dont like, what you are good at, what limits life puts on you with time, energy, money, space, etc. I think what you have is a fine starting point to play with some. It won’t hurt to get things going as is and play. Do a more compact unitram design in the center and realize you will not be able to have it all in a 4x8 layout. But it’s there and you can learn a lot by messing with what you have already without investing much or scrapping it all to start over. Use this layout table to learn a lot and not get too upset it can’t do it all. 

 

Many folks love loop layouts, other hate them and want point to point. But usually it takes you time to decide what YOU like and usually best to learn that by not just looking at plans or other folks likes, but you playing with the layout ideas. Having track and the ability to try some things before you get into a nailed down, glued up layout is really good, as once you get there you are into a big investment of time, money and effort and if you decide you’re not happy is a huge bummer and can be a hobby killer for many.

 

Sectional layouts like inobu are great as you can work on them in smaller bits, take down if you can’t keep it up all time, or make it easy to move later. You can also have substitute sections if you want to mix things up scene wise now and then or easily expand or contract more gracefully if you move the layout. You can just replace a section or two that makes the overall layout fit and makes tracks join up properly. But they do entail work to make the section modules, support system etc, but with that comes the flexibility.

 

just a semantics point with the teams modular and sectional. Modular layouts are like Ttrak and ntrak and are done based on standard types of modules — you can also have custom ones, but generally based around the standards. Sectional layouts like inobu has presented are basically a regular fixed layout that is divided into distinct sections that are built as separate modules that can come apart. It’s the term module that is used in each kind but then gets things mixed up a lot! Modular layouts usually can’t be as unique in their track plans and are more inflexible due to the modular constraints (things like Fremo try to help this but you still have restrictions). A sectional layout gives you most all the freedom of a regular custom layout except you just need to find convenient spots to make your sectional cuts into modules. This can be a little complicated if using sectional track and want to break at sectional track joints of course or you can customize where they break. Also harder to cut apart on curves or one scenery elements may dictate the best place to make the cut.

 

but I really like the sectional approach that inobu presents as it really gives I think the best of all worlds. While loosing a little flexibility of having to design in the section breaks, the benefits on a totally built in layout I think are huge. Even if the modules end up being 5 or 6’ Long and never ever come apart much, it is ready If the dreaded move happens! Murphy’s law of layouts is if you build a built in layout you will have to move when 50% of the work is done on it... I’ve helped tear out two built in layouts and it’s sad...  

 

we did our first club layout freeform very much like your layout on temporary platforms. It allowed us to mess with ideas and got us started doing a layout with little investment. We used construction paper to make various scenery areas and as things Went on made scenery section on thin chunks of Formica (its thin, stiff and stays flat!) that went between tracks. Downside was we had to set it all up and take it all apart and box everything up for each setup! But it gave us a lot of flexablity to play for a few years.we got smarter at the setup and tear down and was getting too much so we went to a sectional layout, but we had a lot known by then if what worked and didn’t work and what we wanted to do. Layout 2.0 was sectional, but we standardized module size to be simpler. Gave us a lot of what we wanted for 6+ years, but we learned more from it and actually got new stimulation for our sectional 3.0 layout by going back and doing a one off freeform set up on the fly for one event. So even taking a step back got us a big leap forward on what we want for our newest sectional layout along with all the wisdom we learned from the first sectional layout!

 

but it again I would just use what you have for now and play and try various things. You could put half the unitram under the station to have the trams disappear there for a while and give you more space for a big city scene in the center with the Main Street going thru it with the visible half of the unitram. You can even mess with the unitram on another table some to figure out how you want your streets to work out and such as this can be hard when that’s out there in the middle of the layout.

 

paint the foam grey with latex paint so you have a concrete base. Print out some roads with the printer to lay down. Plop what buildings you have down. You can mess with just space filling ideas by making cardboard building boxes. Lots of printable buildings for free or cheap to quickly make up temp buildings as well. Lots of stuff you can do to play with ideas on this layout and start thinking about layout 2.0 and even prototype some with your sectional track. Looks like you have a little space In the room that you could do a temp setup with additional tables or shelves to try some other types of layout designs as well. Play with the track planning software then see about mocking some up quickly. 

 

I think you will find this playing with this layout will be invaluable in getting to the next level and getting as much of your wants and needs in there! 

 

Dont give up yet, squeeze what you can out of what you have started and learn for the next.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[gavino200]

I'd agree with what Jeff says about sticking with what you have for now. The 4x8 layout that we had (our third layout overall) lasted us for a good two years. We had a lot of fun with it and I still have fond memories of it. Maybe, most importantly, the things that I didn't like about it only occurred to me gradually. If I didn't use it for a while I would have repeated the same "mistakes" on my next layout. 

 

The main point that I was making is that a 4x8 layout actually used up a lot of room space. It's hard to reach one side from the other, so you need room to walk around it. Generally, you can fit a decent 'wrap around' type layout in the same space. I also don't like straight line layouts. It seems like all that starting and stopping would be tiresome. I guess the holy grail is to have a loop that is complex enough and perhaps partially hidden so that it's not immediately apparent that it's simply a loop. I haven't yet achieved that.

 

This was our 4x8 layout. It was low to the ground as it was used by a six year old. The main problems were the small yard and the tight radii of the inner loop. I had started to encounter the problems inherent with inclines but carried this issue with me into my next layout. 

 

My 'next' layout will have level track while the 'ground' will vary in elevation. I'm collecting ideas and preferences for my next layout. But I'm not planning to change from my current layout for at least a year or too. My modelling skill is still rudimentary. I have a lot to learn on my current board before I can justify moving to a new layout for the sake of track complexity.

 

 

Edited February 10, 2018 by gavino200

[tt0880]

Well, wow, I have a lot to think about now! 

 

Before I respond, I want to sincerely thank everyone who responded, and everyone in this community for always being so willing to help with issues or say something nice about a project. I am lucky to have found it! 

 

So, after evaluating where I'm at right now, I have decided my best course of action is to keep my current 4x8 board and use it as a learning tool. I think it is a fine starting point, but now I have no second thoughts about the fact that I think my second layout (when I eventually move) will be modular. 

On 2/10/2018 at 12:28 PM, inobu said:

Based on the comments you are settling for the sake of progress. That could have you doing another post "Start fresh the sequel "

I think this is a true statement, and I won't deny it. But, by having this be my first layout that I can have fun with will give me something to work towards later in life. I think it would be a bit boring if my first layout ever was already the best it can be :) I know that probably sounds a little odd, but that's a way that I'm justifying it to myself haha. Eventually when I have a larger room (or, if I get my wish, a large basement) I can make it go all around the walls, and I'm glad I know it's an option now.

 

On 2/10/2018 at 12:58 PM, gavino200 said:

The wrap-around type of setup that inobu outlined is more fun to play with. It creates a much better illusion of size than a rectangle loop as the trains actually travel out of your field of vision, and you have to turn your head to follow them. Also, the scenery can be split up into regions more realistically. It just looks better.

Agreed, 100%. I'll have that a bit when the trains go around the other side of the station, but as I said earlier, I think it will be good to strive for this later in life and work with what I have now.

 

On 2/10/2018 at 12:58 PM, gavino200 said:

The rectangular board actually wastes a lot of space, as you need room to walk completely around it.

Agree with this as well... I admit it makes the whole room seem quite small, actually. But it's what I already have assembled, and to be honest, I am very poor with any sort of woodworking skills. I had to have a friend come over and help me with the pathetic table I do have right now, haha. When I first started the hobby I didn't expect to fall so head over heels for it... I wasn't planning on creating a layout at all, then I came back from my dream trip to Japan and decided I needed to start building a layout ASAP, and here we are. Thanks for your valuable input and I hope to have a similar path forward from just a 4x8.

 

On 2/10/2018 at 1:46 PM, cteno4 said:

Use this layout table to learn a lot and not get too upset it can’t do it all. 

Jeff, I think this was important for me to hear. It's important to ground myself and just do what I can with what I have. And, honestly, I don't think what I have right now is too bad. I will have a lot of areas to play with buildings and cityscape stuff, which was my favorite part about Japan when I visited. On my next layout, though, I'm definitely going to have more countryside and stuff, because I loved that part as well. Your advice is seriously invaluable, so I thank you very much for it. I'll paint the foam, commit this to being one big city, and have fun with it. I honestly don't mind the loop because at least this way I can let the trains run when I just want to watch them go by. Thanks again! 

 

Thanks again guys for all the constructive advice, I'm happy with where I am for now. One of my favorite things about this website is that I look at the layouts people build over the course of many years... I find that exciting and I am happy to have found a lifelong hobby. I'll start putting accessories around town and see what I like and don't like, and have fun doing it! 

 

[inobu]

There is a psychological aspect to building these layout that many don't realize. The only way to get around it is to reason out the circumstances. Once you do that you are better equipped to deal with the issues internally. 

There is an image of a nice layout totally destroyed and many could not understand why the builder did it. That's a measure to prevent the builder from vacillating back and forth on what to do. Fix it or start over. The remedy

is often addressed by taking a hammer to it, this limits the choices which defaults to - starting over. From that point there's no question and progress can be made.

 

Also, there are 3 disorders that makes building a layout difficult. 

 

ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder)

FDD (Financial Deficit Disorder)

LPD (Life Priority Disorder)

 

It's a race to get the layout built before one of these disorder effects your build.

 

Tim,

It is all about making informed decisions. Once you reason it out you can move ahead and know its a learning experience and avoid the dreaded hammer. . 

 

Inobu  

[cteno4]

Yeah I thought something Gavin said was very profound, it can take you a while to figure out what you don’t like. This is so true! Important to play to learn these things well so you don’t waste energy on subsequent layouts doing things you later figure out you don’t like as it can be a real pisser at that point!

 

no rush on things, take your time. Soemtimes when you have layout frustration it’s also good to use take a little break or focus on other aspects of the hobby like building and detailing structures or doing some maintenance work on trains, etc, clear your head.

 

also if and when it becomes the hammer decision to the old layout, keep it up and going for as long as you can while you get the new one planned and started. This helps on many fronts and helps you wring out as much of your investment in the old layout as possible for the future.

 

• keep playing with ideas on the old layout as long as possible. You can hack and whack to prototype scenes or track plan
• try ideas out like scenery techniques on the old layout as doesn’t matter if you make a mess, it’s getting torn up anyway
• Just have it there to play as in the initial build of the new layout you will be out of playing during that time so make it as short as possible. Many find that running trains is important to keep up their interest in the hobby and get stalled when layouts hit those spots where you can’t run trains.

 

Cheers

 

jeff

Edited February 12, 2018 by cteno4

[tt0880]

Layout update! And this time, it is a big one!

I guess the best way to demonstrate is with a picture...

Although not the best quality, this what the current state of the layout, and you'll notice something...

NO WIRES!

I'm so excited to have finally finished drilling all of the holes on my layout for the wiring (at least for the track, which is all I need for now. It was particularly hard in some areas, like the viaduct station

Before:

After:

Quite an improvement, eh? Here's one more bonus pic:

 

Some other general pics of the layout:

 

I've come a long way (and a lot of money) from my initial track. It's already nostalgic looking back on pics of my old layout, even though it was less than a year ago!

 

I really do feel like I'm now maximizing the 4x8 space I have available right now. I have very exciting ideas for what I can do later in life, but for now, I am happy with my track layout. I can run FIVE trains at once on this bad boy (2 being on the street plates, of course) and even though it's realistically just 3 separate circles, I still don't mind it.

 

Now comes the fun part of buying and putting together buildings, putting people on the layout, and buying and running trains!! 

[cteno4]

Once the fear of poking holes is overcome it gets good!

 

jeff

[tt0880]

I have something insanely cool to share here!! One of my best friends is a professional videographer and he came to visit today... He wanted to try out some new equipment he got, and I suggested we film my trains because, why not?! 

 

The result is actually so amazing, and I'm still blown away at how awesome he made even my little unfinished layout look... Here is the link to the video:

 

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipMOKL_iBdoBbY1dqAMHXkDUA8FqyNJiXHKXWVKL

 

Let me know what you think! The beginning of the video is him talking about his new products, as well as the very end, but most of the video is just sweet sweet shots of trains :) 

 

SO COOL! 

[Kiha66]

Sounds exciting, but the link leads to a 404 error for me?  

[Pauljag900]

Just now, Kiha66 said:

Sounds exciting, but the link leads to a 404 error for me?  

Same here buddy,can you upload in adiferent format maybe?

[tt0880]

Very strange, link seems to work for me! I'll see what I can do :) 

[tt0880]

Alright, going to give it another go...

 

Hopefully this one works! 

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7iLK25A4cCnGo5ro1

[Pauljag900]

Hi Tim,

yes that works,looking pretty good there buddy👍😀

[tt0880]

Hey JNS Forum! Long time no see! I come here with exciting news... Perhaps the most major change to my layout that I have ever had... You won't believe your eyes when you see this...

 

 

There it is!! Hey, wait a second... Doesn't it look like something's missing? The... layout, maybe?

 

Yes, that is indeed the truth. During my short absence from the forum, my life has been extremely busy. First I was in Germany, then I went to Colombia, and then I came back and... BOUGHT A HOUSE!

 

I still can't believe it's actually real, but my life has been pretty busy lately, but I type this from a brand new location (Truth be told, I moved a street over from where I lived before) So here's a brand new picture of my new layout!

 

Wow, this picture is a little dank, isn't it? You'll notice that the layout is also missing here, but the biggest take away is that I FINALLY HAVE A BASEMENT TO CALL MY OWN! With plenty of space for trains! 

 

So, if it wasn't obvious, I will be starting over, 100% from scratch, finally with enough space to make my dream layout, or at least close to it. I can't wait to begin, and I plan on doing it soon. I just moved in a few weeks ago so I still have to finish unpacking, but eventually I'll be able to get to work. I'm still trying to decide what route I want to take when building my new layout... Modules, or a layout that hugs the walls and goes around parts of the basement, who knows! My neighbor is actually a carpenter who's into trains himself and he said he would be willing to do the benchwork for me if I gave him a plan, so I lucked out there...

 

Lastly, here's a sad picture of all of my train stuff and my old work desk... It's so sad to have it all in boxes, but I plan on unpacking it soon and getting to work!

 

So, I think I'll actually create a new thread pretty soon, but I did want to update this one for posterity. I'm so excited to see where all this new space takes me... Or at least excited just to have trains running!

 

[cteno4]

Hey welcome back tt! Great modeling digs! That’s a nice big space to play in! 

 

Do think of putting someting up for some sort of a ceiling, even if only heavy plastic sheets with battens as you will find a constant rain of schmutz from the floor boards and rafters from the walking on the floors above. One of our club members has a huge unitrak layout in his basement that has open rafters and it requires a lot of cleaning. Our basement was really gritty until I just put up 1/8” Masonite sheets between the rafters held in place with 1x2 battens along the rafters. It sealed things up well enough and I can quickly remove it if I need access to a pipe. Sheetrocking is great, but a lot of work and hard if you need access to a pipe or something.

 

looking forward to the evolution of your railroad empire! Great you have a carpenter neighbor, learn as much as you can, it’s fun stuff and easy to learn with a good teacher. Sadly these days few places to learn stuff like that.

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[Pauljag900]

Hi Tim,

nice to have you back buddy,can t wait to see the new layout unfold.

I can t really give you any advice regarding modules but I built mine in a 12x8 shed so smaller than what you have and I built it around the edges as a fixed layout.It does ok for me but it does have a few drawbacks,mainly in reaching things and especially for track cleaning.I can do it ok but it s a little more awkward,but truth be told I do nt mind having to do it to have the layout I wanted.Nothing wrong with boring loops either mate as it gives you space for other things like yards and buildings etc.I wanted all my trains on there and as many running as possible,I deliberated long and hard over loops but in the end realised to achieve the maximum number of trains on the layout that I had no choice.I m now glad I did it this way,as with in excess of 30 trains with 8 running you soon forget the loops as there s so much going on.But this is only my opinion mate but hope it helps somewhat,

good luck Tim,

paul👍👍😀