New layout, BIG layout, want to pick the best track!

[SubwayHypes]

Hey guys, so my last 4x8 layout was mostly Kato unitrack, I only had one that did a few loops on my 2story layout.

 

My next track plan calls for something much more sophisticated and I want to start things the RIGHT way before I get halfway in and realized I should have gone tomix vs kato, etc.

New track plan is roughly 5x12 length that connects to a 5x5 in a L shape, with the long side of the L being the 12 ft length.

There will be 4 dedicated train lines, a Toyoko line with 2 tracks, and 4 track system for the Yamanote and Saikyo/JR freight lines, and a hibiya subway line that connects to the Toyoko line.

There will be 3 elevated stations, one that will be Shibuya Station with the toyoko line running parallel to the Yamanote station which has Saikyo bypass.  The last station will be Naka Meguro where the Toyoko line and Hibiya line meet and share two platforms.

 

There are going to be numerous sharp turns, pitches, and elevations here, as well as connections to stations, yards, etc.

 

Should I stay with Kato and use their single track, and try to use as much as the unitrack from my old layout as possible.  I really like the unitrack sets that they have, some come with the elevated piers already, and they sell several sets that are perfect for yards, stations, etc.

 

Ive been scouring ebay trying to find a big lot of track so I can start stocking up because I'm estimating I will need at least several hundred feet of track!

[SubwayHypes]

Also, can someone link me to that online track layout calculator?   I have about 5 rough drafts on paper but I want to run this all through those fancy computer programs yall use!

[serotta1972]

Hey SubwayHypes - excited to see what you come up with, that's quite a bit of real estate you are working with.  Sorry, don't have a response to your question but they will come soon enough.

Just wondering, whereabouts are you in the SF Bay Area - some of us will be meeting up at the Train Day in Los Altos in September.  Always great to meet others especially those into Japanese trains. :)

-Junior

[SubwayHypes]

I'm from San Francisco but currently living north of sacramento for work.

 

Sounds fun, what is the train day?  Is it Japanese N scale?

[serotta1972]

Here's a thread for more info.  Not necessarily Japanese but a few of us will be bringing Japanese trains to run.

 

Edited August 27, 2017 by serotta1972

[cteno4]

Subway,

a lot boils down to track geometry and if you want some special things like curved turnouts that only tomix has. It's a constant debate of tomix vs kato track. If you already have a lot of unitrak and no real needs of anything particular to tomix track then I would say continue with unitrak as you own a bunch and know it. It's a tad cheaper getting unitrak new in the states as dealers here sometimes do bit better discounts than in japan and for any good amount of track the shipping is faster and cheaper.

larger lots of unitrak do come up on ebay, but generally not at great prices and you have the issue of usually a chunk of it you don't need. The prices actually many times go at almost new prices and when you factor in stuff you don't need it can be more than new. Lurking ebay for a while helps as good deals on stuff like this on ebay require patience and dedication to keeping an eye out. Used points do show up at decent prices, but points can be the piece of track that used can be an issue depending on the abuse and environment it was in and many times no way to tell that from pictures. One place where new is really good.

for track planning and accounting xtrakcad is free and has a track list it will spit out for you. It's a little fidgety to learn, but if you take notes it's not bad and easier to start fresh a few days later as it's not super intuitive. Running on a Mac requires x windows. A number of other track planning software packages out there and several threads on them in the forum. It's a bit of what you need and personal preference as they allmhave their own approaches.

can you get access all the way around the layout? At 5' wide L you won't be able to reach past 3' max (and that's hard) from one side.

sounds like fun, that's a big enough layout to really do a lot of scenes and track plan!

cheers

jeff 

[Kiha66]

Hey subway, glad to see more bay area modelers.  I've used scram myself, its not the best but still is pretty good for a totally free software.  For track (and other items) I've often bought from plazajapan on ebay, once you start buying a few products and combining shipping it come out to a pretty good price for new stuff.  They also sometimes have deals on bulk track packs.  I've only used unitrack myself, it seems a lot more widely available here in the US and has been pretty reliable.  Tomix track has the advantage of being compatible with their automatic operation systems, and  from what I understand it has a few track pieces kato does not (such as curved switches).

Hope to see you at the Los Altos event!

[SubwayHypes]

8 hours ago, cteno4 said:

Subway,

a lot boils down to track geometry and if you want some special things like curved turnouts that only tomix has. It's a constant debate of tomix vs kato track. If you already have a lot of unitrak and no real needs of anything particular to tomix track then I would say continue with unitrak as you own a bunch and know it. It's a tad cheaper getting unitrak new in the states as dealers here sometimes do bit better discounts than in japan and for any good amount of track the shipping is faster and cheaper.

larger lots of unitrak do come up on ebay, but generally not at great prices and you have the issue of usually a chunk of it you don't need. The prices actually many times go at almost new prices and when you factor in stuff you don't need it can be more than new. Lurking ebay for a while helps as good deals on stuff like this on ebay require patience and dedication to keeping an eye out. Used points do show up at decent prices, but points can be the piece of track that used can be an issue depending on the abuse and environment it was in and many times no way to tell that from pictures. One place where new is really good.

for track planning and accounting xtrakcad is free and has a track list it will spit out for you. It's a little fidgety to learn, but if you take notes it's not bad and easier to start fresh a few days later as it's not super intuitive. Running on a Mac requires x windows. A number of other track planning software packages out there and several threads on them in the forum. It's a bit of what you need and personal preference as they allmhave their own approaches.

can you get access all the way around the layout? At 5' wide L you won't be able to reach past 3' max (and that's hard) from one side.

sounds like fun, that's a big enough layout to really do a lot of scenes and track plan!

cheers

jeff 

Yup, I'm leaving a 1.5 ft space around the entire layout for access.  5 ft width will be a bit of a stretch but I'm thinking about making the layout lower at around 4ft height, still designing my tables.

 

I bought an awesome house that has a HUGE area downstairs to play with.  I could eventually even put a 4x8 yard on one side of the room and connect them!

[Martijn Meerts]

If you want the most flexibility, there's also the options to go with flex track. It's initially a bit challenging to get right, but a good rail cutter helps a lot. You can also combine Unitrack and flex track, I think Kato even offers their own flextrack these days.

[kvp]

9 hours ago, Kiha66 said:

Tomix track has the advantage of being compatible with their automatic operation systems, and  from what I understand it has a few track pieces kato does not (such as curved switches).

Besides curved switches, there are 3 way turnouts, double slips, so lots of space saving turnout types that you really need when you don't have much room to build a layout. Tomix also has a nice selection of small radius curves, turnouts and paved track for street running and other common tram track arrangements that are also great for mini layouts. Generally Kato Unitrack is the more rugged and kid friendly type, while Tomix Finetrack is better suited for fixed layouts.

[cteno4]

Subway,

Good having access is something that is a big gotcha on layouts. 48" is a bit high if you have to reach 2.5' in to get to the center. At that height you can't lean your upper body in and you just have your arm length to work with and it's a bitch to work with your arms out straight like that for any length of time. Also your elevated track and structures could add another 4-12" of height.

Make sure to test this out as getting stuck with a center area that is hard to reach into is a mess. The roll around lean in things like the micromark one sort of work but are very bulky and a pain. They won't roll into a 18" area either and I'm not sure if they can handle 4' high layout. Could make a removable platform like 18"  high you could move around. Step stool can help, but also is an issue with stability, have to remember to only work directly in front of you and not reach to the side!

I did a 3/4" scale model of a large building so we could do all the interior exhibit spaces all modeled out for photography and planning, it was built on super sturdy 4'x8' tables I built at 3.5' high. Model had a raised floor of 4" so the eye level looking into the model was about 4' high. It was a royal pain getting stuff into the center at only 2' from the edges at that height and I'm tall. I ended up making platforms to stand on and move around (we had a lot of space in the warehouse), built a contraption much like the  micro mark one (this was 35+ years ago), and even a trapeze I would hang from the rafters supporting my upper body so I could sort of be horizontal over the large model for the really deep spots. It taught me a lot!

test this out some before you get too far and try to work on things at 2.5' out at various heights and remember there may not be convenient places to put a hand down on the layout for support, especially once you get buildings and scenery in and if you are putting some of your weight onto the layout you have to make sure the layout and support structure will take the weight, especially laterally (when leaning way out you tend not only to put down pressure but also lateral pressure which leg/support systems are sometimes not engineered to handle.)

cheers

jeff

[Vato]

Tomix track

[SubwayHypes]

yea I just did some measurements and 4ft is too high, thinking 3ft height now.

 

Ive done several of the measurements on my lines,  Using kato Uni Track I'm able to get 6 total tracks to do a full U turn with stations at right under 4.5 feet.  I will be able to fit both Shibuya station with the Yamanote, the two lines of Saikyo JR freight, as well as a Shibuya Tokyu station with 4 lines that will converge to two and loop around the outer edge.

Ive been using grid paper and measurements from my existing track, still need to check the computer programs out.

Also, I'm envisioning that maybe the "easier" lines can be kept Kato uni track, and using Tomix for the ones where I need more turnouts to yards, etc.   My kato track would be perfect for the Yamanote and Hibiya lines since they stay independent of other lines.  The Saikyo line will need to be able to do several turns into yards so that I can alternate the JR lines that run on this track. 

[katoftw]

Kato if you wanna save money due to having pieces already.

Tomix if you want a system that is 100 times more flexible in design than Kato.

[SubwayHypes]

20 hours ago, katoftw said:

Kato if you wanna save money due to having pieces already.

Tomix if you want a system that is 100 times more flexible in design than Kato.

Could I run both independently of eachother?   Are they able to connect to eachother at all, or will a tomix line need to be Tomix only.

 

I'm thinking I can use the Kato Unitrack for my yamanote line since it will have zero turnouts or yards, just a simple 2 line round track that circles the layout.  The Saikyo will run next to it but need extra flexibility and be connected to a yard.

I have a connection at Naka Meguro station that connects the Toyoko to Hibiya Line, so might have to do all that in Tomix as well.

 

 

[Kiha66]

Both use the same spacing, and kato makes a short piece of track that transitions from one to the other (kato part 20-045).  You can use them together with no issues, although kato track is higher than tomix, so trains in stations usually looks best (passenger doors are at platform height) if the station brand matches the track.  I believe the switches use different control signals as well, so kato switches should be used for kato turnouts, and tomix with tomix.

[kvp]

You can connect both track systems using the kato converter piece or some joiner modding, so it's pretty much mix and match, but the different ballast sizes give very different looks, so extra ballasting is needed to hide this. Also unitrack has 33mm spacing, while finetrack uses 37mm.

The turnout control signals are the same, but the plugs are different.

I would say try to go with a single system first and only mix them if you must.

Edited August 30, 2017 by kvp

[SubwayHypes]

After doing more research I'm leaning towards Kato, they have several things i am liking better than the tomix, i like their bridges/trusses better and the kato overhead station is better than the tomix imo.

[cteno4]

Subway,

thats good, evaluate on your needs and likes, its your layout. There is no overall right answer here, only what works for you.

jeff

[gavino200]

On 8/27/2017 at 4:54 PM, SubwayHypes said:

Hey guys, so my last 4x8 layout was mostly Kato unitrack, I only had one that did a few loops on my 2story layout.

 

My next track plan calls for something much more sophisticated and I want to start things the RIGHT way before I get halfway in and realized I should have gone tomix vs kato, etc.

New track plan is roughly 5x12 length that connects to a 5x5 in a L shape, with the long side of the L being the 12 ft length.

There will be 4 dedicated train lines, a Toyoko line with 2 tracks, and 4 track system for the Yamanote and Saikyo/JR freight lines, and a hibiya subway line that connects to the Toyoko line.

There will be 3 elevated stations, one that will be Shibuya Station with the toyoko line running parallel to the Yamanote station which has Saikyo bypass.  The last station will be Naka Meguro where the Toyoko line and Hibiya line meet and share two platforms.

 

There are going to be numerous sharp turns, pitches, and elevations here, as well as connections to stations, yards, etc.

 

Should I stay with Kato and use their single track, and try to use as much as the unitrack from my old layout as possible.  I really like the unitrack sets that they have, some come with the elevated piers already, and they sell several sets that are perfect for yards, stations, etc.

 

Ive been scouring ebay trying to find a big lot of track so I can start stocking up because I'm estimating I will need at least several hundred feet of track!

This sounds amazing. Do you have pictures of it posted somewhere?