Hyperloop - The future of trains ?

[splifdfx]

Lots of news everywhere : Hyperloop One just successfully tested its XP-1 passenger pod.

 

 

Surely not as sexy as japanese trains but the possibilities are exciting. 

[Socimi]

Lots of news everywhere : Hyperloop One just successfully tested its XP-1 passenger pod.

 

 

Surely not as sexy as japanese trains but the possibilities are exciting. 

 

Evrytime i see the Hyperloop project, it reminds me of the French Aéreotrain. Not for technical similarities, but for a vey similar history:

 A private-lead company develops a super-high speed "train" that uses a radically different system than conventional railways and has the capability to reach very high cruising speeds (450-500 Km/H), but the lack of state founding (being a strictly private enterprise), the need to create a whole new (uncompatible) netowrk and the extremely high operational costs, led to the SNCF choose over the better, cheaper and simpler TGV and the Aèreotrain project was cancelled after a little more than 10 years.

 

This is also the case with a number of different ways and projects such as the Brennan Monorail (aka "Gyroscope Train"), the Bennie Railplane and other systems that all proised to be "revolutionary".

 

Of these "Similar-to-trains-but-not-one" the Maglev/Transrapid system is the one that will be more successful than others (but on a limited scale compared to the traditional "two steel rails" railways), some examples are  the Chuo Linear Shinkansen, the Shangai Maglev and a ton of people movers, but it's because it's flexible: it can be used for both a 15 Km/H PRT and a 500 Km/H Highspeed train.

 

Hyperloop instead was born to replace conventional high-speed trains, by wich i mean to be as fast as possible, so it's not as flexible as the maglev.

 

My guess is that once the press' hype is down, founding will be cut before major improvements and then, Hyperloop will simply rust away and be forgot.

 

The reason is that the railways (and any other industry) do not need "revolutionary" systems.

They need step-by-step steady evolution or else they will engage in something they're not prepared for.

[ToniBabelony]

For those who don't know about the French 60s/70s dream:

 

 

TBH, this is video is the only reason these kind of systems are here. To be cool and to be lobbied to death.

[kvp]

The difference between the hyperloop maglev and the chuo shinkansen is the diameter of the running tube/tunnel compared to the vehicle and the amount of air pressure reduction needed. The japanese system has an optional possibility to use a pressure reduced tunnel while the hyperloop is designed for exactly this and eliminates the huge tunnels required by the japanese system.

 

At low speeds and while running outside both systems are roughly the same. Even the levitation, guidance method is the same side maglev strip+landing and guide roller system developed in Japan over the last 5 decades.

 

If someone makes a startup to bore tunnels more efficiently, he could make the hyperloop viable by allowing higher pressure and wider tunnels, essentially copying the japanese technology with an option to speed it up further in the future with pressure reduction.

 

ps: Lower pressure also means lower running costs as most of it is power burnt to push air out of the way of the trains. An alternative would be to use more power to create a running speed draft by the first train and run the rest of them behind by inserting them into a bidirectional loop of air after speedup and removing them before slowdown.

[Nick_Burman]

Evrytime i see the Hyperloop project, it reminds me of the French Aéreotrain. Not for technical similarities, but for a vey similar history:

 A private-lead company develops a super-high speed "train" that uses a radically different system than conventional railways and has the capability to reach very high cruising speeds (450-500 Km/H), but the lack of state founding (being a strictly private enterprise), the need to create a whole new (uncompatible) netowrk and the extremely high operational costs, led to the SNCF choose over the better, cheaper and simpler TGV and the Aèreotrain project was cancelled after a little more than 10 years.

 

This is also the case with a number of different ways and projects such as the Brennan Monorail (aka "Gyroscope Train"), the Bennie Railplane and other systems that all proised to be "revolutionary".

 

Of these "Similar-to-trains-but-not-one" the Maglev/Transrapid system is the one that will be more successful than others (but on a limited scale compared to the traditional "two steel rails" railways), some examples are  the Chuo Linear Shinkansen, the Shangai Maglev and a ton of people movers, but it's because it's flexible: it can be used for both a 15 Km/H PRT and a 500 Km/H Highspeed train.

 

Hyperloop instead was born to replace conventional high-speed trains, by wich i mean to be as fast as possible, so it's not as flexible as the maglev.

 

My guess is that once the press' hype is down, founding will be cut before major improvements and then, Hyperloop will simply rust away and be forgot.

 

The reason is that the railways (and any other industry) do not need "revolutionary" systems.

They need step-by-step steady evolution or else they will engage in something they're not prepared for.

 

Hyperloop should be re-baptised "Hype-loop"...

 

US tongues wag that it is the dean child of the neo-cons (the "no tax" people) who think that steel wheel on steel rail is "obsolete". Of course, most of them have never ridden a train...much less visited Hamamatsu General Works to see how "obsolete" HSR is...

 

Cheers NB

Edited August 3, 2017 by Nick_Burman

[Martijn Meerts]

If someone makes a startup to bore tunnels more efficiently, he could make the hyperloop viable by allowing higher pressure and wider tunnels, essentially copying the japanese technology with an option to speed it up further in the future with pressure reduction.

 

That's exactly what Elon Musk has done, it's called The Boring Company :)

[velotrain]

I seem to recall some recent skeptical comments on the maglev, questioning the need for it as well as the viability, given the huge cost which will undoubtedly increase over the lifespan of the project - while admitting the political difficulty of stopping such a project once it has started, pulling itself along against all logic.  The Japanese like their trains, but to what extent are they willing to be sealed inside largely dehumanized tubes (the Hyperloop seems even moreso), almost totally isolated from the landscape they are passing through, just to save an hour of travel time.

 

> About 90% of the 286-kilometre (178 mi) line to Nagoya will be built underground or through tunnels - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C5%AB%C5%8D_Shinkansen

 

Written by an aging luddite who enjoys riding on trains with windows, traveling on track and at a speed that one can actually see what's outside them.

Edited August 4, 2017 by velotrain

[Khaul]

I think they want to make Hyperloop a pod system. Pods would work as automated, low speed cars that can pick you up at the front door and drive themselves to a tube entrance where they would be shoot at high speed using maglev technology. For what I have seen this system would be complex and, critically, have a rather low capacity. Maglevs running inside pressurised tunnels will be able to move a lot more people who would need to take a pod, or the local metro to reach their final destination. These magletubes would be rather boring to ride unless they are build as rollercoasters...

[Davo Dentetsu]

I doubt this will get off the ground proper.  Thunderf00t videos seem to demonstrate that the physics required would be monumentally huge and the cost outweighing any benefit.

[railsquid]

Isn't it supposed to go under the ground?

[Martijn Meerts]

Hyperloop is basically designed to get you from point a to point b as fast as possible with as little hassle as possible. You don't take such a train to enjoy the countryside or the trip itself.

[kvp]

I think they want to make Hyperloop a pod system.

Not really. Actually the opposite. The hyperloop meant to replace airliners. You go to the Hyperloop terminal, enter a long tube with tiny (or in this case no) windows, sit in a chair for X time and arrive at your location preferably faster than any other mode of transport. This is what modern air travel is and considering some passengers on the largest airplanes are sitting 6 people away from the next window, it's not really about the views either.

 

With the current technology, the hyperloop line could run on the surface with normal pressure, in an elevated tube or a subsurface tunnel with decreased pressure and anything between these two. You could even run it in a transparent tube and add windows to the vehicles, but there is no real reason to do so since most passenger airplane seats are not next to a window either. The main view on the japanese maglev is provided by a camera on the front and displays in the cars as there is no windscreen on the vehicles.

 

ps: Modern lifts don't have windows either. The first lifts didn't even have doors or even walls, so you had to be careful not to get caught between the lift platform and the shaft. Later doors and windows were added and the shaft were often built in the middle of staircases, so you could see 360 degrees around you while moving up or down. Many examples of these are still in operation in Europe. This was later replaced with windows only on the manually operated doors, which is a nice feature as it allows easy escape in case the elevator breaks down. (you just open the manual door in the cabin tripping the safety relay, unlock the nearest shaft door by pressing the mechanical latch and step/jump out) Nowdays, it's not a 360 degree view while riding in the middle of a wrought iron lattice work staircase, not even a small safety glass window, just blank lift doors and fully opaque walls and it it breaks down, you can't just open the door and walk out. The hyperloop is very similar in concept to a vertical lift riding in a magnetic channel but meant to look inside like a modern airplane and travel as fast or faster.

[Khaul]

That's how they are marketing the hyperloop study in Dubai:

 

[kvp]

That's how they are marketing the hyperloop study in Dubai:

Dubai has the problem of not having enough area to really need a really high speed system, so the high speed tubes could by only used for short distances, which isn't really too effective as there is no time to really speed up before the vehicle has to slow down. Using two air locks and carrying pods is also not efficient space and energy wise. At least the back/front airlock docking seems realistic, but getting the vehicle completly out of the vacuum system, then opening the passenger compartement door seems like a more safe solution (but wastes more vacuum due to the vehicle sized double airlocks needed for it).

 

The original concept was to make it work like a hybrid of an airplane and a maglev lift. You get in, sit down, travel, get up, exit.

 

ps: My version uses the original idea of leaving most of the air inside the tubes but circulating it at the cruise speed of the vehicles. The maglev technology would allow the vehicle to remain guided at high speed and assit in both the stream insertion and extraction process. (essentially accelerating and decelerating the vehicles in large diameter tubes to match the airflow speed and only matched vehicles would enter/exit the small diameter tubes, acting mostly likefree pistons in it. No pumping station is required as the first cars entering the system would speed up the airflow by using much more energy and then each car would add a bit of power to it as they move powered by the maglev system. (this solution would remove most of the air resistance without removing the air) The two directional tubes would be connected behind the entry/exit ramps with tighter turning air flow tunnels to keep the air circulating. It would be possible to add booster ventiallators there, Beach Pneumatic Transit style. :D

Edited August 4, 2017 by kvp

[Socimi]

That's how they are marketing the hyperloop study in Dubai:

 

 

Ha! Ha! Ha! 

 

The reason Dubai needs an Hyperloop is the same reason why they have a Fully-Atuomated-Driverless-State-Of-The-Art Metro and a Shiny-Brand-Spanking-New -Lightrail (More like a Tram): To showcase how wealthy they are. To be the envy of the rest of the world.

This is probably also the same reason why the city of Dubai itself exists.

 

 

Gold Class?! This aint' no plane dammnit!

Even if it's 1/10th of the whole train, still there is no reason why they would need such "Gold Class" stealing precious space for rush hour. Or maybe some Sheik that financed the project doesn't want to travel with the generic plebs... 

Edited August 4, 2017 by Socimi

[kvp]

The reason Dubai needs an Hyperloop is the same reason why they have a Fully-Atuomated-Driverless-State-Of-The-Art Metro and a Shiny-Brand-Spanking-New -Lightrail (More like a Tram): To showcase how wealthy they are. To be the envy of the rest of the world.

This is probably also the same reason why the city of Dubai itself exists.

 

Gold Class?! This aint' no plane dammnit!

Even if it's 1/10th of the whole train, still there is no reason why they would need such "Gold Class" stealing precious space for rush hour. Or maybe some Sheik that financed the project doesn't want to travel with the generic plebs... 

In Japan, this would be called green class, aka. 1st class. This service exists on many commuter services too. For JREast usually this is in the double decker cars, but some private opeators use single decker, single door cars in otherwise 2 or 3 door longitudinal seating commuter emu-s. Even some european branchline siemens desiro dmu cars have 6 seats on one end as 1st class section (extra feature: the seats are arranged around two tables and there is a doorless glass partition towards the rest of the train).

 

The hyperloop looks like a less usable idea for Dubai, due to, well. being good only for air travel length long distance trips. And in that case being confined to a tiny pod is worse than having to change vehicles at a terminal.

[velotrain]

> Even if it's 1/10th of the whole train, still there is no reason why they would need such "Gold Class" stealing precious space for rush hour.

 

And women and children only get 1/12th of the train, but then I gather it's difficult for them to get out if not accompanied by a man.

Edited August 4, 2017 by velotrain

[trainsforever8]

> Even if it's 1/10th of the whole train, still there is no reason why they would need such "Gold Class" stealing precious space for rush hour.

 

And women and children only get 1/12th of the train, but then I gather it's difficult for them to get out if not accompanied by a man.

Actually over there women can go outside without being accompanied by a man. It's in Saudi Arabia that they can't.

 

The women and children car is simply for women who don't necessarily want to be around men or are with their children, but women can be in any of those cars.

 

I've been to Dubai quite a few times and I must say, having only 5 cars is a big mistake because believe me, during rush hour it's unbelievable and I remember that some times people wouldn't even respect the different types of classes that there were in the trains because they simply couldn't afford to do so, it was too crowded. I think that 10 cars would have been better or at least maybe 7.