Kato vs Tomy Trams

[Hobby Dreamer]

Hi Guys,

 

These trams are good new! I favour Kato because I can find out information about them more easily. Tomix is still a bit of a insiders world, for me anyway.  But the more selection, the better!

 

One of the photos of the Kato box shows (1) tram track - maybe a new Kato product? and (2) 3 colours- red, green and blue. My hobby goal (and interest in this board) was based on trams and the quality items from Japan. That ended with Tomix tram track because the separation of the rails was too wide for that prototypical look of trams passing each other. For me no track = no trams.

 

The price of about $100 seems fair to me for Kato quality. Be great if Kato made tram track with tight radii and turnouts. I always felt that N-scale offered the modeller a lot in terms of space and tram layouts even more so. In a small space it would be possible to have 2 or even 3 levels of track.

 

This is a great forum because intrepid members always seem to get the first scoop on new releases!

 

Cheers

[to2leo]

Oh I found a comparison between Tomytec and Kato details.

 

The top one is Kato while the bottom one is Tomytec.

[cteno4]

 

One of the photos of the Kato box shows (1) tram track - maybe a new Kato product?

 

so far the there has been no mention about any new kato tram track, just that one tantalizing picture. none of the blogs from the show mentioned the track and none of the kato display had any of the track. the sample tram was on regular unitrak. the picture may have been staged just for looks! tomix has grabbed a lot of customers with their street plates. should be pretty simple for kato to make the same for unitrak w/o modifying the track at all! we shall see if they get into doing a very tight radius tram turnout... thats more of a manufacturing challenge and they are still getting flack about the #4 turnouts.

 

That ended with Tomix tram track because the separation of the rails was too wide for that prototypical look of trams passing each other. For me no track = no trams.

 

this has been the major bug for me with tomix track as i find the spacing a bit wide for trams as well. using kato in the standard ttrak spacing of 25mm gives the right tight look to me from many japanese prototypical scenes. the 37mm tomix spacing just makes for a bit too large of a scene in ttrak and hard to do tight street scenes...

 

cheers

 

jeff

[cteno4]

Oh I found a comparison between Tomytec and Kato details.

 

The top one is Kato while the bottom one is Tomytec.

 

to2leo,

 

excellent find! kato does have nicer detail and looks like lower mechanism so the seat tops can at least be there and not see the mechanism. but for over 2x the cost there is a difference there!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Hobby Dreamer]

Hello,

 

I just posted a longish reply but it seems to have gotten lost in the ether.

 

Thanks for the comparison photos of Kato vs. Tomix.

 

I am really close to jumping ship to HO as track and trams are available, but these latest Kato offerings spark interest. For me, its all about track availability since covers over train track are poor tram track substitutes, for me anyway. I bought quite a bit of N-scale stuff 10 years ago but gave up on the tram part because the curves were too large. I have 3 Arnold trams.

 

If Kato makes tram track that would be great! For space reasons and interest I am only focused on a tram layout.

 

Thanks to everyone contributing to this thread. 

[Bernard]

Oh I found a comparison between Tomytec and Kato details.

 

The top one is Kato while the bottom one is Tomytec.

 

to2leo,

 

excellent find! kato does have nicer detail and looks like lower mechanism so the seat tops can at least be there and not see the mechanism. but for over 2x the cost there is a difference there!

 

cheers

 

jeff

 

Leo - Me too, thanks for the great photos. The turning mechanism on the Kato gives more options.

I agree with Jeff, the price is a big plus with the Tomix tram and on my layout the sectin it will be running on is DC.

[Martijn Meerts]

Kato's track spacing is only 4mm less than Tomix's track spacing. I doubt that if Kato is going to make special tram track that they'll have smaller track spacing. They'll likely make the tram track compatible to the current system.

 

I have some of the tightest Tomix curves and the tram track sets they have, and it looks quite nice actually. With a bit of weathering and some scenery it should look real nice. Of course the tracks are fairly far apart, but in part that's because the tighest curves are so tight that placing the track much closer to each other would mean 2 trams wouldn't be able to pass each other in a curve.

[cteno4]

Hello,

 

I just posted a longish reply but it seems to have gotten lost in the ether.

 

Thanks for the comparison photos of Kato vs. Tomix.

 

I am really close to jumping ship to HO as track and trams are available, but these latest Kato offerings spark interest. For me, its all about track availability since covers over train track are poor tram track substitutes, for me anyway. I bought quite a bit of N-scale stuff 10 years ago but gave up on the tram part because the curves were too large. I have 3 Arnold trams.

 

If Kato makes tram track that would be great! For space reasons and interest I am only focused on a tram layout.

 

Thanks to everyone contributing to this thread. 

 

have you looked at the modemo trams? lots available there!

 

jeff

[CaptOblivious]

1) Holy cow, those comparison photos are revealing aren't they? The Kato tram looks well worth the price (at least in comparison). Very nice.

 

2) One thing about Tomix track spacing, even with the Mini and Super Mini curves, is that they are designed for more than just trams, so overhang is a real concern. I mention this because my recently purchased Tomix 209-0-series (thanks Alpine!!)—a commuter train with 20m carriages—mentions on the side of the box that it is compatible with the Mini curves. I would be quite willing to bet that if the track spacing were terribly closer than 37mm, that overhang would mean parallel 209-0's would collide in a curve! So call the spacing a design compromise  :boxing:

[alpineaustralia]

Guys,

 

Even at 10,000 yen, for me it is a complete "no brainer" in favour of the Kato.

 

The comparison is quite an indictment of the quality of the Tomix tram especially in relation to the detail in the pantograph, the paint work and the mechanism joining the trams. Surprising because their quality in these areas is usually much better in their trains.

 

I know the arguement that "the Tomix will be made to a price", but I think this hobby should be constantly moving forward in relation to quality, detail and realism rather than backwards to affordable "toys". That is what has helped MicroAce to be conisdered a serious player.

I also relate this to Tomytec's diorama series buildings which are affordable but extremely poor quality (they done even fit together properly). As a result, I have now reverted to interpersing them with Greenmax buildings that I build and paint myself with the desired level of realism.

 

My two bobs worth (ie. opinion) only.

Happy for people to disagree.

[cteno4]

well they are two different models. the tomix is a tomytec, not a tomix model. made to be inexpensive static model that you can then supe up if you want to. the kato is made as a fine detailed finished motor model. two very different products, markets and prices (the kato being over 2x the tomix).

 

not everyone can afford high quality, high priced stuff. many folks dont get anything out of building complex models or really care that there is a lot of detail in their models. not everyone is the same.

 

frankly, I think the tomytec stuff is probably one of the best things to keep the hobby alive. tomytec stuff is great for the beginner who has little skill and may not want to invest a lot into the hobby to start. gives them very rapid satisfaction that will lead to a stronger interest in the hobby as well as great examples of how to paint, weather, etc. if the forward motion was only to high priced, high quality models, it would only satisfy part of the market, making the hobby smaller and thus leading to decline in sales and then diversity and new stuff.

 

its a delicate balance to keep things alive and well and try to keep as many as possible in the hobby happy and buying trains. Tomix has obviously found a very large market share that loves their tomytec products as their sales seem to be outstripping any other product in the industry with the spread of products and most seem to fly off the shelves pretty well.

 

microace was shrewd, IMHO, to grab the hyperdetail market while kato and tomix were slugging it out. they were able to grab a nice name now for being pretty much the esoteric brand now.

 

Me, im in the middle. i like the detail and quality when its there, but can see that to make it spiral higher will most likely just spiral the prices. I also realize that the hyper detail while nice is rarely ever noticed when more than a foot or so away from the model. i also appreciate the variety and decent quality of the tomytec products at a very very good price. while not perfect they are damn nice at a good price and are fast to assemble! their washed paint jobs are much better than all the other pre colored models out there and to take an uncolored greenmax and do that level of detailed painting would take a fair amount of time and talent to do well. i strive for a happy medium of quality, price, detail, quantity, and variety. i only have so much time, energy, interest, and money to put into the hobby so i end up pulling from stuff all across the spectrum. if that spectrum was not there i probably would not be in the hobby.

 

So i guess im really happy there are three strong levels to the hobby going now. gives you a good choice on what you want to do or want for a particular need. its usually the more advanced modelers that then want only high quality stuff to be produced, but forget many started with some much cheaper quality and priced stuff when they got started in the hobby.

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[alpineaustralia]

I hear the arguements that have been put forward and appreciate the extremely pricey entry point for this hobby. Believe me, I have no joy in forking out the amounts I do for trains. But it seems to me that it would be better for the industry as a whole (and Tomix) to not break it into 3 economic bands.

 

I draw the analogy with budget airlines that were brought in on the same arguments. Airlines (eg Qantas) now offers a full price brand (ie the Qantas brand) and a budget brand (JetStar) which it owns. The result has been that budget services has completely taken over the full priced service on certain routes resulting in a much lower standard with no alternative. There are many other examples of cheaper wiping out more expensive because it is no longer profitable (eg japanese motorcycles wiping out European motorcycle industry, car industry etc.) and then becoming more expensive in the face of reduced competition.

 

If Tomix introduces Tomytec as a lower cost option and Tomytec continues as successfully as you say it is, then what incentive is there for Tomix to support its more expensive brand with expensive R&D costs? The trams were produced under the Tomytec brand - it is unlikely that Tomix will now produce a more detailed version under the Tomix brand? why did they not produce the trams under the Tomix brand? Will trains be produced under the Tomytec brand instead of the Tomix brand? if so when will trains be produced under the Tomix brand? is it conceivable that Tomix will stop making certain trains altogether because there it is decided that they should be produced as a Tomytec version only? 

 

IMHO the better option is for Tomix to drive economies of scale (resulting in reduced prices) by consolidating rather than fracturing its product range. Again happy for people to disagree and present alternative arguments. Perhaps this should be different topic because it is seems to be heading into an area more about the future direction of the hobby rather than trams.

[CaptOblivious]

Here is a comment that speaks to Alpine's concerns (I hope!).

 

I think the Portram is an interesting departure for TomyTec. Previously, TomyTec made models of relatively obscure trains that would likely never have been profitable had they been manufactured to a Tomix level of quality. But, by reducing the quality level and  making them collectors items in blind boxes extends the consumer base who will buy them (because they are cheaper and because they are collectables): In this way the casual collector can help to subsidize the cost of obscure models for the serious modeller. So at the TomyTec level, they were profitable to make; the result is a win for the consumer, because it expands the range of models available. Moreover, recognizing that serious modelers were interested in these models, they were designed to be gussied-up with standard off-the-shelf parts that were also profitable to produce (because they could be reused in many different products). It is in these cases that I think Martijn gets it right.

 

But, the Portram is different. The Portram is raising hackles, methinks, because it is not some obscure model that only a handful of serious modelers are interested in. It is not a model that needs subsidizing through lower quality and collectibility. It is here that I think Alpine's arguments get traction. The bad news is that Alpine is right: Tomix never will make a Portram. The good news is that Kato agrees with my above assessment about the profitability of the model, and so at least for now, we don't need to worry about  a JetStar-like scenario so long as they will.

 

But I think Alpine's worries are right. Providing cheaper products and services that appeal to a larger audience is often (but not always!) more profitable, and if TomyTec scores big with the Portram, we might see an increased number of decreasingly obscure models depart the Tomix line for the TomyTec line. And Kato and Micro Ace aren't always going to take up the slack. So, re-reading the arguments offered, and without trying to sound elitist, I do worry that the introduction of an expanded range of TomyTec products could have the effect of shrinking the range of models available to the serious modeler.

 

[When I say "serious modeler", I just mean someone who prefers the level of detail and reliability currently offered by Kato, Tomix, et al, to that offered by TomyTec. I mean this in opposition to the TomyTec collector who is less concerned about the level of detail than about catching them all, and who will never run them. I have nothing against either group.]

[cteno4]

Well i dont think you can make the economic comparison between an airline operation and hobby item manufacturing. its a bit of apples and oranges IMHO. The economics of an airline are very different from that of a small priced (relatively) manufacturing business.

 

I doubt that there is a big economy of scale in producing the higher quality trains compared to the relatively simple tomytec stuff that can benefit from an economy of scale as it has less of the costly detail work to do on it, I would hazard a guess that economy of scale on the high end trains would only reduce price by maybe 10-20 percent at most, not by enough to drive the price way down into tomytec land. mostly the tomytec line is relatively simple plastic production and very simple assembly and painting requiring very little high quality labor, tooling etc to achieve an adequate level of detail for it to sell well at an inexpensive price. the high quality stuff needs way, way more prototyping, tooling, detailing, assembly, Q/A, packaging, etc and most of those things wont get much cheaper with scale.

 

i work in the educational multimedia biz and we have this problem a lot. when you have a production that is based primarily highly detailed oriented, skilled labor (ie design, content production, assembly, q/a, etc), you get little benefit from scale, and in fact it can get harder as oversight can get much more complex and costly and problems seem to magnify with scale and can even eat up your scale savings.

 

I think tomix decided to pursue the trams in the tomytec line as they were not in the tram biz much at all, with modemo grabbing most of that biz. i think they saw a way to increase the tomytec line thru the collection series and then add the power units to leverage off that and it seems to have worked very well for them. with their toy manufacturing background and resources (tomy is huge) they do have the upper hand at doing the simpler, more toy like stuff and there seems to be a big demand for it. the Portram was the point where they looked at hitting both markets at once more with something more popular (they have done a few other specialty tomytec trains, but nothing as popular as the portram). the mechanism might have been something different for them to do, but it appears they got mired up in getting it to work and then kato caught up with their model!

 

in this case consolidation by tomix onto the higher end stuff would just put them into increased competition with kato, microace, modemo, and green max. this makes it really hard to make a good profit and could cause the wipe out of one or more of the companies if the competition is too fierce. diversification in this instance is good for tomix as they have found a niche with little competition for them right now. problem with this is they may get lazy or start rising prices, but luckily i think they realize that this stuff has to keep to a lower price point to sell for this market share they are selling to and keeping variety up and moving ahead is important. by asking tomix to abandon the low end line you are actually asking them to give up the market they have the greatest advantage in (ie very little competition) and the best experience and resources in -- thats usually not what is done in businesses like this unless there is some huge advantage to give those things up.

 

the whole tomytec tram market really did not come from the trains side, but from the collector market. the railway collection was for that hobby collector that was not into scale train modeling. adding the motors and detailing parts seems to have been an afterthought to leverage into a potential secondary market. this is just good business if folks want to buy the stuff.

 

i guess the market will tell on this. I just dont think you can have high detail and inexpensive at the same time as well as maintain a number of providers all doing the same thing at the same time (ie competing for the same market share all the time). I think it boils down to having to have a mix like we now have of high and low quality, but also a good diversity in trains and prices or if we go to only high quality we will see a smaller diversity and high prices.

 

I still love the Tomytec stuff as its a great combination of price, diversity, and quality. granted its not top of the line, but damn good for the price and nothing else beats it except doing it all yourself and not everyone has the time, experience, and/or experience to do that. With out it i think convincing new folks to the hobby would be a lot harder. I think it allows a lot of folks to have fun with the hobby without having to become a craftsman as well. not everyone wants to get really fiddly with their models or cares about extreme detail so it lets those folks have fun and get into the hobby at a reasonable price. They would not take the hobby up if everything was higher priced and high quality kits that too a lot more to assemble and detail.

 

I see room for all of this and the current spread of japanese model trains has a really healthy diversity and is feeding all the markets well. There is a bit of healthy competition which is good, but also there is some specialization that has allowed for more different kinds of trains to be made than each making all the same trains and trying to compete with each other on a few minor details. We have high quality lines from all the major players as well. compared to train models in other countries we are really sitting rich in terms of average price, quality, and diversity!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[alpineaustralia]

compared to train models in other countries we are really sitting rich in terms of average price, quality, and diversity!

 

I absolutely agree with this statement Jeff. I never cease to be amazed at the sheer diversity of the range of Japanese trains that one can buy from only one country.

 

I think you have a good point about each manufacturer finding its niche and perhaps the Portram is a good example of how Kato and Tomytec have found their respective niches and are being faithful to those niches.  I hope I am wrong (and you are right) and that this sort of thing doesnt result in a "lowest common denominator" approach to the hobby because I am personally one of those guys that really values detail and realism in trains.

 

You know guys we really ought to have opened this sort of discussion in a dedicated thread.  BTW, on another personal note, I enjoy these sorts of "meaty" opinion peice threads as a change every now and again to the shorter threads. 

[Guest ___]

I'm still tired from the NYC trip so I'll keep this short :P But due to space limitations and my own layout design, space for a tram line is pretty much nil, though I want to have the appearance of such so for the price of a dummy unit, I'm totally going for a pair of the Tomytec. I just love the details they put in to the stuff they release as is. Yeah TT is not really in the market of making operating trains, that's what the TOMIX line is for. It really doesn't make much sense from a manufacturing or corporate structure standpoint for TOMIX to make TomyTec brand operating trains as it would compete with it's parent self. It's the same reason why Chrysler bought jeep, they axed the Commache as it was a direct competitor to the dodge Ram, and the Mitsu pickup truck.

[jappomania]

Hi!

that's just only my opinion, I think the Tomix approach whit the relatively new Tomitec Tetsudou brand it's not so bad, and it's similar to USA scale models. You can buy uncompleted or simplified models and after you can complete whit motor, details and so much you think (I've see that USA modelers have a lot of details part, Microscale decals, engine and more available to personalize locos and cars)

At the end, if you would a complete model ready to run the end price is not so far

example modemo tram car (kato is  unavailable now) around 6000 to 10000 JPY (single to double car)

TOMITEC shell only 1400 - engine 3300, maybe a new detailed panto 500, light (handmade I'm not sure but the engine kit is without light, please confirm)

Sincerly I like these models because you can try to modify, kitbashing without a big budget (and if you break all you can retry again and don't cry to much)

I think Tomix brand is not damaged from Tomitec release until the models reproduced are different, another things is the "xerox" approach from different factory, the last example is the IZU 2100 announced from Microace in white (already released from Kato) and black livery (need us another IZU 2100???)

more example? Kato and Microace 383, KATO, TOMIX, MICROACE EF510-1. .......

In Italy is the same, you can find the same loco whit minor differs from ACME, LIMA/RIVAROSSI, ROCO (and if you ask to reseller that's don't like it)

but that's only my opinion...

 

Massimo

[Guest ___]

I'll keep this simple becasue if I don't my Hot Pocket will get cold, and it's a steak and cheese one, so here goes. I like TomyTec, cause it's cheap, well detailed, and as a lazy man, don't have to do a whole hell of a lot of work to assemble it, something that is good for a man with 20/120 corrected eyesight.

[Hobby Dreamer]

Hello again,

 

I apologize if hot links a re not allowed but I would not know how to get these pics and info on the forum otherwise. Please delete if not allowed.

 

I've been Googling Unitram (or Kato tram track) since the first news of the Portram tram release and finally there are numerous hits. Some have pics while others have info and postulations. I have a hard time with translators but it seems these trams have a potential to handle R90 curves, which is interesting.

 

Anyway, here are some links:

 

http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://popondetta.com/blog/&ei=YfqNSujMCoaINLm8jLAK&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=8&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dkato%2Bunitram%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN%26start%3D20

 

http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/meitetsu_panorama2000/29407157.html&ei=pfiNSoeMDo-OMdKu4a8K&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=8&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dkato%2Bunitram%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN%26start%3D10

 

http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://popondetta.com/blog/2009/08/kato_27.html&ei=pfiNSoeMDo-OMdKu4a8K&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=5&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dkato%2Bunitram%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN%26start%3D10

 

 

Here are 2 photos from Tomix's site, that are quite cool!

 

http://www.tomytec.co.jp/diocolle/lineup/tetsudou/image_gallery/ig_01.html

 

http://www.tomytec.co.jp/diocolle/lineup/tetsudou/image_gallery/ig_03.html

 

 

I think this link is from a member's site but has great info and photos:

 

http://jmtn.wordpress.com/2009/08/20/kato-announce-unitram-system/

 

 

I don't know if Tomix uses better photos but their tram versions seem to have colours that stand out a bit more - whiter whites, bluer blues etc.  Hopefully they are close in colour, so one could have static trams in a tram barn together with working trams.

 

I'm very excited by the Unitram track.

 

Cheers

Rick

[Hobby Dreamer]

Hi Bernard,

 

Those photos by Tomix are fantastic! And the white colour of the trams is well suited to small scales.

 

Do you suppose these are offered for a limited time only? I hope not..

 

Good luck with your trams when they arrive!  They are beauties!

 

Rick

[Guest ___]

I got to admit, while I want the TomyTec one for a static tram, the Kato looks great with the people inside it. It's pretty tempting.

[cteno4]

 

Do you suppose these are offered for a limited time only? I hope not..

 

Good luck with your trams when they arrive!  They are beauties!

 

Rick

 

Rick,

 

best get a tram while you can to be safe if you want some. tomytec is very frustrating in that some items will sell out and thats it (some building series were re run years later), while other seem to stay in stock. i do think they will do more runs of these as i expect they are flying off the shelves. that being said i haev learned to buy what i think i might want into the future now with tomytec stuff. all the major japanese train manufacturers tend to not keep stuff in stock for ever. some popular things are rerun and kept around, but many more exotic things are just a single run and when its sold out it gone. track is kept in pretty good stock, but tomix will wait for periods before it will re-run certain pieces at times (ie the tight radius turnouts going in and out of stock a lot in the last year)

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Guest ___]

Anything in a collection by Tomytec means grab it. I wouldn't hold my breath on reruns. they could, but their track record is a crap shoot.

[bill937ca]

Both Kato and Tomix have huge catalogs.  At best 25% of Kato is in production and stock at any one time and maybe 50% of Tomix is in stock at any one time.  I've heard of some Kato items only being re-run after 8 or 9 years.