Wheel sets

[Khaul]

Hello Everyone,

 

I think there is a need to open a new topic on wheel sets. I'll have the first shot.

 

Alright, I have been thinking for a while about replacing the silver wheels in my freight cars. Actually I don't understand why manufacturers install silver wheel sets in some cars and blackened in others. It seems clear to me that black wheels look more realistic. Another point of concern is huge pizza cutter flanges and wide threads. In this respect it looks like Japanese manufacturers are moving to smaller flanges, at least in locomotives. For instance both my Kato DE10 and C11 come with nice thin flanges and threads.

 

I have recently purchased a package of 12 Fox Valley Models (FVM) brass, fine scale wheelsets. Flanges are very thin and so are threads. Note that FVM also makes wheel sets with the same flanges but with wide threads.

 

The pizza cutters are from a Kato Toki 25000. The Kato black wheel set, from a Re 12000, is nearly as narrow as the FVM. It has bigger but not huge flanges.

 

I have installed the new wheel sets in some of my freight cars for comparison.

 

That's a pair of Kawai Taki 43000

 

Detail

 

Does not look so good

 

Prototype

 

Tomix Wamu 38000 with FVM wheels and Tomix Wamu 8000 with original Tomix silver wheels

 

Tomix Wamu 8000 with FVM and Kato Wamu 8000 with original Kato blackened wheels

 

 

Performance

 

I have been reading everything I could find in the internet about FVM narrow wheels running on Unitrack. I have done some testing yesterday. I haven't found any problem so far in car equipped with bogie mounted couplers. I have run them in an oval with 280mm curves and over both #6 and #4 turnouts. I did find problems with my Tomix Wamus derailing in the 280mm unitrack curves. Note that I glued Kato knuckle couplers in those cars so they lack sideways articulation. So the thin flange climbs the rail when taking a relatively narrow curve. This problem does not happen when the cars are equipped with the original silver wheels. I have yet to test the FVM wheels with Kato two axle cars.

 

 

Coupler height

 

You can see in the photos above that the FVM wheels are somehow smaller than the some of the Japanese wheels. That's a bit surprising as I chose the most standard, intermediate size (33") and I expected the wheels modelled in American rolling stock to be bigger than the Japanese ones. Scale, 1/160 vs 1/150, may have something to do with that. FVM also sells a bigger size, 36" I think, that may be ideal for our models. Wheel diameter does originate a bit of a problem with coupler heights. Note that this does not happen for all models, ie Wamus. Conversely, coupler height is a bit of an issue also with the original wheelsets anyway. Once I decide what I want to do I will install a few shims and problem solved.

 

 

Looks

 

I think the FVM wheels look great, especially when installed in rolling stock equipped with bogies. The bigger wheels may look even better. Now the Unitrack rails are starting to look too high and too wide...

 

 

Other thoughts

 

• My original intention is to replace the silver, pizza cutter wheels and leave the reasonably flanged black ones in place, Hopefully this mixing will not create too many problems.
• I recall kvp wrote a comment regarding brass wheels running on Unitrack not being a very good idea.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Khaul

[katoftw]

We've had quite large dicussions about wheelsets in another thread. Mainly Tomytec wheels due to the need of buying lots of wheels. I'll see if I can find the thread when I'm home from work.

[Kiha66]

Those new wheels do look much better!  I do have to say though, I appreciate that we're at lest getting real metal wheels stock with Japanese models.  It seems most american manufactures still are using plastic wheels on most N gauge rolling stock, while charging 4x the price! 

[kvp]

Imho while the axle end distances must match, but the wheel diameters should also match to keep the standard coupler height.

 

Imho the pizza cutters are likely kept for compatibility with badly laid track in case of tatami running, which could be a big factor.

 

Blackened versus shiny is a big question and the new Tomix camera train might hold the answer as the camera car comes with shiny wheels but the motor and the other cab car has blackened ones.

[Khaul]

Imho while the axle end distances must match, but the wheel diameters should also match to keep the standard coupler height.

Yes, of course. What I meant is that the bigger diameter American wheels may be a better match for the average coupler height in Japanese models. In some of my photos the FVM wheels match the coupler height quite well but clearly not in others.

[katoftw]

http://www.jnsforum.com/community/topic/10526-alternative-tomytec-parts/

 

I found the earlier Tomytec thread.  Different aspect regards fitment and colours span across all three pages, so worth going through them all.

[Khaul]

http://www.jnsforum.com/community/topic/10526-alternative-tomytec-parts/

 

I found the earlier Tomytec thread.  Different aspect regards fitment and colours span across all three pages, so worth going through them all.

 

 

Ah, yes, now I remember. Well, the other thread is about alternative Tomytec parts. This thread could be about the suitability of fine scale wheel sets for Japanese models.

[katoftw]

Yes agreed.  Just thought you find the axle widths and colour change info interesting./

[kvp]

Ah, yes, now I remember. Well, the other thread is about alternative Tomytec parts. This thread could be about the suitability of fine scale wheel sets for Japanese models.

I think this depends on how you plan to use these cars. For example many tomix turnouts use wheel flange contacts for power across the frogs and these contact plates have the added effect of floating the wheels across the turnouts, so they don't slam down into the gaps on the very sharp curve of the smaller turnouts. On the other hand, Kato unitrack on the floor can have some slightly misaligned ends, that create tiny steps in the rails (Tomix rail ends are filed, Katos aren't). With small flanges and higher speeds, this could lead to derailments. The current commercial flange size is designed for running on code 80, 70 and specially made code 55 (code 60 compatible) tracks. This covers most track types above code 40. Imho this normal flange size is good for reliablity and most european manufacturers use it too. If you have lighted cars (internal or head/tail lights), then imho good contact is important.

 

Finescale wheels are available from other manufacturers and for example i use Graham Farish finescale passenger car wheels (small flanges, blackened) to replace plastic wheels in older minitrix freight cars as these are the ones that fit them and they are cheap. They run fine and look great, but are more sensitive to bad track and actually tend to look funny when going through a Tomix R140 turnout at a slower speed. (the 2 axle cars dip into and out of the frog gap) The same turnouts are also problematic with the old Arnold rapido tall flanges, since some locomotives ride up so high on the frog plates that the trailing cars disconnect. Fortunately these ancient overscale trains are not really a concern today.

[Khaul]

Yes agreed.  Just thought you find the axle widths and colour change info interesting./

Yes, that's indeed interesting. Thanks for bringing it up.

[Khaul]

I think this depends on how you plan to use these cars. For example many tomix turnouts use wheel flange contacts for power across the frogs and these contact plates have the added effect of floating the wheels across the turnouts, so they don't slam down into the gaps on the very sharp curve of the smaller turnouts. On the other hand, Kato unitrack on the floor can have some slightly misaligned ends, that create tiny steps in the rails (Tomix rail ends are filed, Katos aren't). With small flanges and higher speeds, this could lead to derailments. The current commercial flange size is designed for running on code 80, 70 and specially made code 55 (code 60 compatible) tracks. This covers most track types above code 40. Imho this normal flange size is good for reliablity and most european manufacturers use it too. If you have lighted cars (internal or head/tail lights), then imho good contact is important.

 

Finescale wheels are available from other manufacturers and for example i use Graham Farish finescale passenger car wheels (small flanges, blackened) to replace plastic wheels in older minitrix freight cars as these are the ones that fit them and they are cheap. They run fine and look great, but are more sensitive to bad track and actually tend to look funny when going through a Tomix R140 turnout at a slower speed. (the 2 axle cars dip into and out of the frog gap) The same turnouts are also problematic with the old Arnold rapido tall flanges, since some locomotives ride up so high on the frog plates that the trailing cars disconnect. Fortunately these ancient overscale trains are not really a concern today.

 

Good stuff, thanks!

 

I am not running trains on the floor but in the dining table. I have noticed the kinks at the ends of Unitrack. They have not created a problem yet. I have been worrying about wheels derailing over frogs, but again, no problem with that either.

[Azamiryou]

About a dozen years ago, I converted some of my Japanese rolling stock to using fine scale wheelsets. They looked great, but I found it challenging to get them reliably running great.

 

The first big hurdle was axle length - all the fine scale wheelsets I could find were made for US trains, and I found that each of the Japanese companies used different axle lengths and none matched the fine scale wheelsets. With some hunting I was able to find different makes of wheelset with different axle lengths, and was able to get some that were "close enough" to use. But in many cases, the new wheelsets were either too tight to roll freely, or loose in the journals (making the car unstable).

 

The other issue was that fine scale wheels run well on fine scale track, but commercially made track is far from fine scale. In particular, for real railroads, wheels don't fall into the gap at a turnout frog because the tread reaches across the gap to ride on the wing rail. You can build track to use this same geometry in scale, but commercially made track generally won't. So with Kato, Tomix, Atlas, etc. track, fine scale wheels will run very rough through turnouts and I found operation to be very unreliable except on my hand-built fine scale track.

 

That said, all that was a long time ago. Things may have changed - perhaps axle lengths are more standardized now between the US and Japan, or the wheelset makers are offering wheelsets with Japanese axle lengths? If it's running well for you, I certainly can't complain about that!

[kvp]

Actually each japanese manufaturer has more or less standardized on a few axle lengths. Tomix and Tomytec has two main types, the old type power collection / trailer pack wheelset group that is compatible with Arnold rapido wheels, while the new types are meant for metal journal bearings and are shorter by the thickness of the two journal plates. Several wheel diameters, colors exist from each type. I've installed Tomytec wheels into Arnold cars and they roll very smooth. Kawai cars are old Tomix moulds and could use the legacy wheelsets.

 

Then there is the Minitrix/Piko group which is incompatible with japanese wheels but could use british type finescale wheels.

 

Kato also makes US prototype rolling stock and wheels, so some replacement finescale wheels work nicely with their cars (both us and japanese ones) They also have at least two different axle lengths.

 

All Kato and Tomix turnouts use flange running, either on plastic, cast metal or spring loaded metal plates. Finescale wheels will wobble, but precision turnouts could not handle the varying wheel profiles, so as much as 1mm sideplay is allowed. This means some narrow running surface finescale wheels could end up falling between the rails at turnouts and on sharper curves.

[Khaul]

About a dozen years ago, I converted some of my Japanese rolling stock to using fine scale wheelsets. They looked great, but I found it challenging to get them reliably running great.

 

The first big hurdle was axle length - all the fine scale wheelsets I could find were made for US trains, and I found that each of the Japanese companies used different axle lengths and none matched the fine scale wheelsets. With some hunting I was able to find different makes of wheelset with different axle lengths, and was able to get some that were "close enough" to use. But in many cases, the new wheelsets were either too tight to roll freely, or loose in the journals (making the car unstable).

 

The other issue was that fine scale wheels run well on fine scale track, but commercially made track is far from fine scale. In particular, for real railroads, wheels don't fall into the gap at a turnout frog because the tread reaches across the gap to ride on the wing rail. You can build track to use this same geometry in scale, but commercially made track generally won't. So with Kato, Tomix, Atlas, etc. track, fine scale wheels will run very rough through turnouts and I found operation to be very unreliable except on my hand-built fine scale track.

 

That said, all that was a long time ago. Things may have changed - perhaps axle lengths are more standardized now between the US and Japan, or the wheelset makers are offering wheelsets with Japanese axle lengths? If it's running well for you, I certainly can't complain about that!

 

I have now converted a couple of two-axle cars with the remaining sets. Those are Kato Re12000 and run alright. I have re-used the 11-606 wheelsets that come with the Res in a couple of Tomix wamus which now look and run fine.

 

Axle length is indeed a bit hit and miss. I took a couple of my freight cars to the shop in the US and chose the closest option. I have noticed that some of my Kato cars come with a shorter length axle that is not compatible my the FVM wheel sets I bought. I have not noticed more wobbling when crossing frogs, everything seems fine so far. I am running the trains at realistic speeds though and the freight cars don't have electric pick ups that rely of flanges running through frogs, though.

 

In terms of coupler heights I reckon the 33" size is quite good for most cars. Differences in coupler height are more due to a droopy couplers than anything else. The knuckle couplers included in Kato locos are a bit thicker (a lot thicker in the C11!) than ithe ones in the rolling stock. That may be done on purpose be to accommodate height differences.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Khaul

[Khaul]

I've got a couple of packets of Kato 11-606 Long Axis Wheel for Fastened Bogie with Screw (Black) to replace the remaining silver wheels in my freight cars. Those wheels are not fine scale, but probably a good compromise.  Critically they seem to be the only ones for sale but they don't fit all the freight cars, not even the Kato ones. I've had no problem installing them in two axle cars. They can go on some bogies, but not in all of them.

 

Big improvement over the Kawai Shokai pizza cutters

 

I ended up installing all the FVM wheels in the Taki 43000. They look best in them

 

I did not have enough wheels for all the cars so I painted the outer part of some silver wheels with a marker. Now the flanges stand out a bit but the experiment does not look to bad.

 

PS: for the sake of saving bandwidth I have loaded low res imagines.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Khaul

[nah00]

Those new wheels do look much better!  I do have to say though, I appreciate that we're at lest getting real metal wheels stock with Japanese models.  It seems most american manufactures still are using plastic wheels on most N gauge rolling stock, while charging 4x the price! 

 

Nothing like buying an Atlas Conrail gondola for $24 then having to spend more money to get metal wheels...

[Kiha66]

Nothing like buying an Atlas Conrail gondola for $24 then having to spend more money to get metal wheels...

Yep! I have got new Kato locomotives for less than what some of the local club members are paying for plastic wheeled freight cars. Crazy to see the difference in expectations of value between the different countries.

[kvp]

And the funny thing is that making lathe turned metal wheels tomytec style is actually cheaper than the mould for good quality plastic ones. I can only think of two reasons: the tools are already there and they going to use them as long as possible and that the plastic wheels are intentional as they are messy on the track but quiet.

[nah00]

From what I understand it's a bit of both: the tooling that Atlas uses for wheel sets is ancient and they are slightly more quiet...except when they derail on every other point for some of them.