Tomix New Operation Control System (TNOS)

[Trains Lover]

Sorry this is a bit off the topic.

I accidentally deleted the TNOS files in the SD card when I did the update. Are there any ways to download those files? 
I couldn’t find any reference in the TOMIX website, appreciate for any help!

 

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Trains Lover

[Yavianice]

2 hours ago, Trains Lover said:

I couldn’t find any reference in the TOMIX website, appreciate for any help!

https://www.tomytec.co.jp/tomix/necst/5701tnos/tnos-update.html
 

before doing anything, read the PDF files from each version and follow the instructions carefully (e.g. you need to configure your box after updating).

[Trains Lover]

3 hours ago, Yavianice said:

https://www.tomytec.co.jp/tomix/necst/5701tnos/tnos-update.html
 

before doing anything, read the PDF files from each version and follow the instructions carefully (e.g. you need to configure your box after updating).

Thanks for the reply. I deleted the original files by mistake, any suggestions that I can get back the files? I tried to put only the update files to the box, it does not work. 

[Yavianice]

10 hours ago, Trains Lover said:

Thanks for the reply. I deleted the original files by mistake, any suggestions that I can get back the files? I tried to put only the update files to the box, it does not work. 

Have you tried online tools such as Recuva? If you still can't manage, I can give you a copy of my SD card. You can download it here.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Yavianice
fixed link

[Trains Lover]

Thanks for your suggestions. I think I recovered some files using the software but they are not in the original folders. 
Appreciate if you can share your copy to me, that would really save my day. 

 

[Yavianice]

6 hours ago, Trains Lover said:

Thanks for your suggestions. I think I recovered some files using the software but they are not in the original folders. 
Appreciate if you can share your copy to me, that would really save my day. 

Done, check the original link (fixed)

[Trains Lover]

The link is the first update (2019/02) folder, would you mind to share the original files? 

[Yavianice]

@Trains Lover can you check this link? 

[Trains Lover]

The link works well. I put all the files into the TNOS SD card, but it still shows SERR code. Not sure what I have done wrong. Is there some kind of protection in the SD card? 

[Yavianice]

Not sure. I assume this is the TNOS box that gives you this error? The TNOS box needs to be updated for each update; you cannot do all at once. What you could try is retroactively updating my link to each update, updating your TNOS box accordingly, and then doing the same for each update until you have all applied on your TNOS box.

[Trains Lover]

I have tried to put the files in the card for several times, it still does not work. Thank you for your help anyway! 

[Yavianice]

I don't know, maybe @brill27mcb has a backup, since he is much better at documenting TNOS than I am? Otherwise you will have to contact your point of sales to ask if TOMIX can send you a replacement SD card; perhaps there are some hidden files that we don't know about which are crucial for operation (DRM or whatever).

[brill27mcb]

Yes, I think that is the situation. See http://www.trainweb.org/tomix/control/tnos.htm, under "Notes on the TNOS SD Memory Card (English)." That notes file starts with a note that the Tomix instructions seem to indicate that the card must be replaced by Tomix themselves, so I think they have it protected somehow. I don't read Japanese and I'm not a memory card expert, either, but that's my understanding. This makes things hard for purchasers not living in Japan. If you bought it from a source in Japan, try to work through them, as Yavianice suggested, to get a replacement card from Tomix.

 

Rich K.

[Aleks]

Hello, very new to model railroading and just potentially thinking about TNOS. I have a few questions.

 

1. What will happen if you add two turnouts and a track that creates a "short run"? For example, in plan 8 (one loop), if you lay it like a double-track tram line, in the middle, add a balloon loop that would turn around a tram and send it back to the beginning of the route. You can throw the entering point of the short run balloon loop for every second or every third tram. Will TNOS controller be able to deal with this?

 

2. Also in plan 8, in the middle of the double track line, say you create a double track diverging line of the same length and with the same number of blocks as the continuing main line. Install sensors on that diverging line that are daisy chained off respective sensors of the main line. Power the blocks on the diverging line by soldering the wires to the respective blocks on the main line, such that the same blocks on both lines are powered at the same time. Figure out how to throw the diverging turnout for every second train. Would this allow to operate trams alternating between two routes (and because the two are synched, they would be forced to take proper slots and not crush when the two lines merge)?

 

3. As a variant of the above, if you create two separate loop lines (plan 8) and solder the wiring of each respective block together, and daisy chain the respective sensors, would you be able to operate two lines off of one TNOS controller? (Of course you would still have the same number of trams in aggregate.) If you have these lines cross in the middle, may be there is a way to make it where the trains on the two lines would never collide (if the crossing is for the same block numbers on the two lines that are connected/powered together, there would only be one tram on them at any point... so if these lines are single track it would work... if they are double track perhaps there can be some other ways that would prevent collisions on blocks with different numbers).

 

4. If you create one of the standard Tomix plans, but the line physically ends before it is supposed to, such that there are fewer blocks and fewer sensors than in the Tomix layout. What will happen? 

 

5. If you create one of the standard Tomix plans, and in the middle of the line you insert one or more additional blocks and sensors connecting to the unused slots in the ND100 units, such that the line becomes longer than the standard Tomix layout, what will happen? Say the last block and the last sensor is still connected to the appropriate ND100 slots.

 

6. If in a standard Tomix layout, set turnouts diverge the train somewhere else into different blocks, what will happen to the train?

 

Thank you! I got myself a DCC unit but wondering if this is more than I can chew to automate and if Tomix TNOS, although limited in its flexibility, may be an attractive alternative.

[Aleks]

On 10/7/2018 at 3:19 PM, Yavianice said:

 

Maybe Tomix didn’t bother making an API if they aren’t sure TNOS will be a success. When more people buy it, I’m sure demand for more custom layouts will increase, and maybe they will make one.

 

 

In my experience this is not how Japan works. Priorities are on careful planning to minimize operational issues and get top quality, high level of standardization and high level of organization/rules, so things are easy to implement for a lay person, and minimal risk taking. TNOS concept fits very well into these, as there are relatively few options and they are all standardized and easy to set up and operate. But opening the design to the public does not fit and goes against those base priorities. So I would expect more standard layouts but no API/design opening.

[Yavianice]

Assuming you mean this layout: 

 

2 hours ago, Aleks said:

1. What will happen if you add two turnouts and a track that creates a "short run"? For example, in plan 8 (one loop), if you lay it like a double-track tram line, in the middle, add a balloon loop that would turn around a tram and send it back to the beginning of the route. You can throw the entering point of the short run balloon loop for every second or every third tram. Will TNOS controller be able to deal with this?

If I understand it correctly you want to fold Layout 8 into a Dog Bone layout, with a point in the middle. Correct? TNOS works with block sections meaning that the polarity is fixed. So a tram would not be able to enter the "first" block in a reversed manner. There is no way to change the polarity of a section, either in the API or in the pre-programmed layouts.

 

2 hours ago, Aleks said:

2. Also in plan 8, in the middle of the double track line, say you create a double track diverging line of the same length and with the same number of blocks as the continuing main line. Install sensors on that diverging line that are daisy chained off respective sensors of the main line. Power the blocks on the diverging line by soldering the wires to the respective blocks on the main line, such that the same blocks on both lines are powered at the same time. Figure out how to throw the diverging turnout for every second train. Would this allow to operate trams alternating between two routes (and because the two are synched, they would be forced to take proper slots and not crush when the two lines merge)?

This is a bit hard for me to envision without a drawing. But, for TNOS to work the pre-programmed train routes (refer to the manual and then page 5 and 6) MUST be followed EXACTLY in the order specified. A skipped sensor means that all other trains will stop operating until that condition is fulfilled. In other words, a crash will not happen because the lines must be the same; two trains cannot occupy the same section (unless one fails to stop because of an incorrect PWM setting, or missing sensor).

 

2 hours ago, Aleks said:

3. As a variant of the above, if you create two separate loop lines (plan 😎 and solder the wiring of each respective block together, and daisy chain the respective sensors, would you be able to operate two lines off of one TNOS controller? (Of course you would still have the same number of trams in aggregate.) If you have these lines cross in the middle, may be there is a way to make it where the trains on the two lines would never collide (if the crossing is for the same block numbers on the two lines that are connected/powered together, there would only be one tram on them at any point... so if these lines are single track it would work... if they are double track perhaps there can be some other ways that would prevent collisions on blocks with different numbers).

You cannot do this because the daisychained sensors need only be triggered once, so unless your trains run at exactly the same speed, one will eventually fall behind and stop working while the other overtakes it.

 

2 hours ago, Aleks said:

4. If you create one of the standard Tomix plans, but the line physically ends before it is supposed to, such that there are fewer blocks and fewer sensors than in the Tomix layout. What will happen? 

TNOS will say there is an error and not function until all the feeders and sensors are connected. If you "cheat" (e.g. put blocks randomly somewhere, or put multiple sensors together) then it will not work, either the train will stop moving because the feeder does not correspond to the sensor, or the train will stop working because it has "missed" a sensor and rolls into a block that is not powered. So unless you want to manually trigger the sensor somehow (what I have done for testing purposes), this is not an option. Only the block the train is currently in and is about to drive into is powered at one time. 

 

2 hours ago, Aleks said:

5. If you create one of the standard Tomix plans, and in the middle of the line you insert one or more additional blocks and sensors connecting to the unused slots in the ND100 units, such that the line becomes longer than the standard Tomix layout, what will happen? Say the last block and the last sensor is still connected to the appropriate ND100 slots.

TNOS will ignore all feeders and sensors that you additionally put into the box, if you select a pre-programmed layout that does not use them. Additional sensors CAN be added, and you can call onto them in the API to drive a train to that "extra" sensor, AS LONG AS the "extra" sensor is in a pre-programmed section. There is no way as of yet to add an extra section (feeder) that TNOS will activate in a specific polarity, or to change the polarity of a specific section. The polarity is selected by TNOS based on the "direction" it has to go to according to the pre-programmed layout.

 

2 hours ago, Aleks said:

6. If in a standard Tomix layout, set turnouts diverge the train somewhere else into different blocks, what will happen to the train?

If you diverge from the pre-programmed route, and thus fail to meet a pre-programmed requirement of triggering a sensor, TNOS will halt all trains and wait until that requirement is fulfilled, and will time out after a specific time. After that you will have to turn on TNOS again and then reset all the trains to their original position. There is no "resume" function. If TNOS commands a train to run into a block with no (or incorrect) sensor, it will keep running the train (off a cliff, if necessary) until the required sensor is triggered or the time out limit has been reached.

 

2 hours ago, Aleks said:

In my experience this is not how Japan works. Priorities are on careful planning to minimize operational issues and get top quality, high level of standardization and high level of organization/rules, so things are easy to implement for a lay person, and minimal risk taking. TNOS concept fits very well into these, as there are relatively few options and they are all standardized and easy to set up and operate. But opening the design to the public does not fit and goes against those base priorities. So I would expect more standard layouts but no API/design opening.

A few posts below the one you replied to, we delve into the "API" of TNOS (TCL) which was released in an update not long after. So, that's your API.

 

TNOS development has (probably) been abandoned due to lack of interest, or at the very least been pushed back due to COVID constraints. Many of the promised features were never released, and there has been no update since April 2020. 

 

If you have more questions feel free to ask.

Edited February 5, 2022 by Yavianice
grammar

[Aleks]

10 minutes ago, Yavianice said:

Assuming you mean this layout: 

 

If I understand it correctly you want to fold Layout 8 into a Dog Bone layout, with a point in the middle. Correct? TNOS works with block sections meaning that the polarity is fixed. So a tram would not be able to enter the "first" block in a reversed manner. There is no way to change the polarity of a section, either in the API or in the pre-programmed layouts.

 

TNOS will say there is an error and not function until all the feeders and sensors are connected. If you "cheat" (e.g. put blocks randomly somewhere, or put multiple sensors together) then it will not work, either the train will stop moving because the feeder does not correspond to the sensor, or the train will stop working because it has "missed" a sensor and rolls into a block that is not powered. So unless you want to manually trigger the sensor somehow (what I have done for testing purposes), this is not an option. Only the block the train is currently in and is about to drive into is powered at one time. 

 

TNOS will ignore all feeders and sensors that you additionally put into the box, if you select a pre-programmed layout that does not use them. Additional sensors CAN be added, and you can call onto them in the API to drive a train to that "extra" sensor, AS LONG AS the "extra" sensor is in a pre-programmed section. There is no way as of yet to add an extra section (feeder) that TNOS will activate in a specific polarity, or to change the polarity of a specific section. The polarity is selected by TNOS based on the "direction" it has to go to according to the pre-programmed layout.

 

If you diverge from the pre-programmed route, and thus fail to meet a pre-programmed requirement of triggering a sensor, TNOS will halt all trains and wait until that requirement is fulfilled, and will time out after a specific time. After that you will have to turn on TNOS again and then reset all the trains to their original position. There is no "resume" function.

 

A few posts below the one you replied to, we delve into the "API" of TNOS (TCL) which was released in an update not long after. So, that's your API.

 

TNOS development has (probably) been abandoned due to lack of interest, or at the very least been pushed back due to COVID constraints. Many of the promised features were never released, and there has been no update since April 2020. 

 

If you have more questions feel free to ask.

 

Thank you very much for a very quick reply!

 

In #1, I did not mean a dogbone, but a track that connects e.g. block 4 to block 2 bypassing block 3. Thus, sensor 1-3 would never be triggered for that train. But the next train will proceed through block 3 and trigger 1-3.

 

##2-3 I will try to get a picture done... Actually this one I think should be working...

 

##4-5-6 Seems like TNOS does not tolerate deviations and basically would just stop working until corrections are made. I presume you have tried to beat it and it's not easily possible?

 

I spent the last 24 hours reading a lot here and at trainweb.org about TCL... as I understand it only really provides for some supplemental batch-command type operation of one train at a time and would not e.g. be equivalent to creating a new operating mode even for an existing layout (unless you are looking for a mode that is one train at a time). What I meant by the API is ability to add new feeders/blocks and/or new full operating modes for existing layouts/plans. I think Tomix released four updates in 3 years (through 2020) after introducing TNOS, is sitting on not-quite-ready signals for TNOS somewhere in its R&D, and probably was hit by COVID in 2020-2021, so not sure I'd consider they decided to write it off quite yet. But still the level of complexity and being error-prone if they provide full layout/mode design capability would in my humble opinion likely be more than I can see them practically release.

[Aleks]

For my question #2, what I meant is this diagram below (please excuse my drawing skills). Sensors with the same number (A and B versions) are connected, and likewise blocks with the same number are electrically connected through feeders so either both are powered or both are not. If you run e.g. four trams across this layout, directing two into the alternative route, I think they will not be able to overtake each other. For example, if tram 1 went into the outside loop (clockwise) and is currently in block 4, and tram 2 goes into the inside loop, going through block 5 (clockwise), I think it should not be able to enter block 4 as TNOS will know block 4 is occupied and not realize the block 4 in front of tram 2 is a physically different block than the one where tram 1 sits (because the sensors are connected). Thus, tram 2 should keep behind tram 1 even though it passes through a physically different rail.

 

A similar diagram for question #3 except the two routes cross but have no common rails. If the same # blocks are electrically connected and have connected sensors in both loops, TNOS should not be able to tell these are two different loops. Thus, where these intersect (block 8 with block 8 and block 6 with block 6), only one tram/train can be in that block at a time, so they should not collide.

 

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Aleks

[Yavianice]

Regarding 

51 minutes ago, Aleks said:

but a track that connects e.g. block 4 to block 2 bypassing block 3. Thus, sensor 1-3 would never be triggered for that train. But the next train will proceed through block 3 and trigger 1-3.

would never work, because the train that bypasses block 3 would go into a dead block and the train behind it would wait for the train in front to pass block 3 which it never will. 

 

For #2 the trains would still run behind each other per block, it does not matter where the sensor is as long as the sensor in the layout is passed. So yeah if you want to manually switch switches all the time to reroute trains it would work.

 

For #3 it would work but then the trains would go "behind each other" but then on 2 different lines, as long as each train passes the expected sensor according to the layout, it will work. 

 

 

[Aleks]

Thank you Yavianice! Really appreciate your information. Just trying to think how excited I would be running layouts and schedules that are fairly rigidly defined as they are. As compared to how much pain it would be to only buy DCC-ready trains/trams or trying to convert myself, plus figure out any automation techniques under DCC, and how much more extra money and time it would cost.

[Yavianice]

@Aleks you could also consider hybrid solutions, such as Dinamo or ALAN (though the latter gets mixed reviews because for some reason does not include sensors).

[Aleks]

@Yavianicethank you again! Actually not familiar with either... will do some research.

 

A couple other questions on TNOS. Some layouts contain multiple sensors in one block. For example, layout 7 includes two sensors for each of the blocks 3 and 7. Layout 14 has three sensors in each of blocks 3 and 4. I presume there is still only one train per block. Are the extra sensors to slow down the trains approaching the turnouts/stations?

 

Is it true that you can add extra tracks e.g. at stations or terminuses at will? So e.g. when the layout shows two tracks at a terminus you can build e.g. 4.

[Yavianice]

@Aleks yes, when there are 2 sensors in one block this mostly is for slowing down trains or for shunting purposes (when a train needs to reverse in a block).

 

for layout 13 and 14 (which you can interchange by the way, if you have it set up as layout 14 you can still use layout 13) the three sensors are there to slow the train down before going over the double switch/slow it down into the station.

 

and yes you can build as many tracks as you want at the terminals, as long as you feed it before the point and switch points manually (or use TCL for it in custom shunting programs, or manually input the command on your TNOS box).

 

just know that TNOS expects the trains to be in their correct initial positions once the program loops.

[brill27mcb]

I have had a dogbone-shaped tram layout (so it looks like 2 tracks on the street, with end turn-around loops) for 2 years running on TNOS Layout Plan 8, and I just enjoy watching the trams circulate, with stops. I could never run 4 trams on the same layout with DCC manual control - I'd get air traffic controller syndrome trying to switch the throttle between them. I run 4 trams with Automatic Operation sequence 9 for pretty continuous operation.

 

 

That said, I must live with 8 blocks, not less and no more. Luckily, trams are short so the blocks can be short, too.

 

I think your two later plans would work. As long as the trams can't skip a block or overtake one another, you should be OK, as Yaviance said. On your second plan, where the tracks cross, the blocks containing the crossing must share the same block number, to avoid the chance of collisions.

 

TNOS is not a very flexible system, but it does make possible automatic multi-train operations using plug-and-play components and without requiring programming. The use of TCL files can enhance and build upon the available Automatic Operation sequences, if you are clever about it.

 

Rich K.

[Aleks]

Thank you very much both @Yavianiceand @brill27mcb!