Tomix New Operation Control System (TNOS)

[brill27mcb]

Good! I'll be curious to find out what he says. If he could just send you his TCL file c090102.txt as an email attachment, that would be very helpful.

 

I am starting to believe that TCL is not just a limited Forwarding Mode language for moving around a single train, but a full-blown TNOS Automatic Operation sequence-writing language. It seems you may be able to do everything with what Tomix have released, except to define a Layout Plan. This is very encouraging!

 

Rich K.

[Yavianice]

49 minutes ago, brill27mcb said:

Good! I'll be curious to find out what he says. If he could just send you his TCL file c090102.txt as an email attachment,

see the YouTube video. He added it as a comment. Will look at it later. I’m still not sure how he gets 2 trains to run simultaneously though. That would make it much cheaper for me to buy TNOS as I then only would need 1 ND unit.

[Yavianice]

@sandiway @brill27mcb Ah, I figured out how he can run 2 trains at the same time. It’s an operating mode of the layout P90. So when you use TCL, you still can only run 1 train at a time, not 2 or more.

 

His TCL file is actually quite standard, which you can decipher using my thread. The first part of his TCL file is just rearranging the trains from the yard to the main line. Then, the part where his two trains run at the same time (which happens around 12:07 in the video), you can see that a new mode is activated. In the TCL file, this is described as follows:

 

Quote

 

SA 5

RN

 

 

Which basically means, Layout 90, mode operation 5, run now. Operation mode 5 is running the two trains on opposite tracks in different directions.

 

When that loop has been completed, and it continues again with the rest of the TCL file until about 18:40. From that point on, he uses the manual operation of the TNOS for Layout 90 (where the TNOS box basically functions as a normal power pack) to control the trains 1 and 2 at separate speeds.

 

You can also notice that when the train is doing shunting, only 1 train is operating at a time (because this command is not hard wired in the TNOS P90 layout).

 

You will notice that he is using one ND unit, which only has 8 sensor inputs, while he uses many more (1 near the station on the bottom, 1 near the station on the top, 1 near the point on the main line, and 2 on the storage tracks, for each oval). He uses daisy chaining to use multiple sensors for the same sensor plug. Specifically, the storage tracks and bottom station sensor are all daisy chained, making a second ND unit redundant. 

 

Lots you can do with daisy chaining. 

 

This is a very cost efficient way of using TNOS for a double track layout. I think I might see if I can implement it for my double oval + siding and storage tracks. Now I no longer need to buy multiple ND units, as multiple switches could (in theory) also be thrown together (I still need to test this).

 

Shigemon has uploaded a video where he displays all operating modes of the P90 layout.

 

 

More info about the P90 mode can be found in the official manual here. Please keep in mind that the layout on the left and right are the same, and the operation modes below can be used for either layout (since they are identical, the second layout on the right has more sensors). The operation modes 8 to 12 can only be used when the sensors are in the same configuration (or daisy chained) like in the right layout.

 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Yavianice

[brill27mcb]

Thanks for asking him in a Youtube comment about his TNOS Control Language (TCL)  program, and how wonderful of him to provide it in full as part of an answer, and in English! That and your followup questions and answers are really useful.

 

I did see in the program which he provided that it incorporates Tomix standard Automatic Operating sequences, using just a simple call as in your message. It kind of deflates my hope that it could be possible for TNOS users to program the operation of more than 1 train moving at the same time. Perhaps someday there will be a supplemental release of additional TCL commands, but I doubt it. The limitation is that Operation Mode 0 (Forwarding Mode) is for only one train, and every train operated under TCL has to be assigned in turn as that train (Train 1).

 

By the way, in studying various posted TCL programs, it appears that your table of the optional "b" variable choices in the Set Movement (SM) command may be wrong. I don't know where you found the information, but the actual TCL programs written by Tomix and users show the following:

 

1=Stop (which may bring up the word "StoP" on the Control Unit display);

2=Forward direction (when leaving the Origin Sensor/Block);

3=Reverse direction (when leaving the Origin Sensor/Block);

6=End (the train movement ends at that sensor) (this may bring up the "- - -" on the Control Unit display. Tomix themselves use 6 in their programs, except for the final SM command, where they use 1).

 

I have not seen any other choices used. This answers your question of how to program a train to start up in the "other" direction. You may want to check this out and update your TCL Command explanation spreadsheet. I have downloaded it, so that I could make some revisions and changes to help me continue to better understand all of this. I feel like we are making real progress.

 

Rich K.

Edited July 16, 2020 by brill27mcb

[brill27mcb]

Another thought, that I have been forgetting to post, is that when I did the multi-step update of my Tomix TNOS SD Memory Card and Control Unit, I seemed to lose my customized train Operating Parameter Sets in the process, in my case sets 1 through 6. I had to punch them back into the Control Unit using the keypad and dial. Luckily I had written down the 9 number settings for each set. I recommend keeping a written copy...

 

Rich K.

[Yavianice]

46 minutes ago, brill27mcb said:

Another thought, that I have been forgetting to post, is that when I did the multi-step update of my Tomix TNOS SD Memory Card and Control Unit, I seemed to lose my customized train Operating Parameter Sets in the process, in my case sets 1 through 6. I had to punch them back into the Control Unit using the keypad and dial. Luckily I had written down the 9 number settings for each set. I recommend keeping a written copy...

 

I found this out myself. Not sure if I posted about it. I keep the train parameters in a sheet which is referenced in my main TNOS post.

 

52 minutes ago, brill27mcb said:

By the way, in studying various posted TCL programs, it appears that your table of the optional "b" variable choices in the Set Movement (SM) command may be wrong.

 

Actually I was never sure what the parameter was for, I just interpreted it like that for all of the TCL programs I stumbled through. But in the sheet what I actually used is your table (bottom right) 😄 . I found that parameter also in the latest youtube video, and realized that it is indeed to reverse trains. Good too, because that was a real pain.

 

52 minutes ago, brill27mcb said:

I have downloaded it, so that I could make some revisions and changes to help me continue to better understand all of this.

 

I can give you edit rights for the spread sheet if you want to have it. It's a big task to do it yourself. If you want it please PM me about it.

 

52 minutes ago, brill27mcb said:

Perhaps someday there will be a supplemental release of additional TCL commands, but I doubt it.

 

There will be more TCL commands posted later, because signals are not yet implemented even though they have been touted to be. This is why the feeders/switches are also exchangeable and why there are many additional unused ports. I am certain of it that more TCL commands will be added.

 

On a sidenote, I found out that I do have enough sensors to build this in my layout myself, but, I lack some extension cords for the sensors. So it will take a while, again, for me to get all the required gear to see if I can implement the P90 layout in my current setup.

 

It is quite nice though, and I think I might use it permanently for my setup. The only downside is that staggered departure/arrival is not possible like in the "normal/original" layouts, but this is so cheap that I think I will do it anyway. My setup is basically 2 ovals with a siding for each anyway, something that could easily be configured using a similar setup as shown in the video.

 

To be continued.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Yavianice

[brill27mcb]

I've been busy and recently made a major update to the "TNOS info in English" section of the trainweb.org/tomix website.

 

After studying the TNOS TCL commands and struggling through the TNOS Update documentation, I have altered my English nomenclature and revised the documents to help people who can't read Japanese (like me!) understand the main 5701 Basic Set manual and the TNOS keypad. I have also created documents that help non-readers of Japanese understand TNOS Updates 1 and 2, the train Operating Parameters, some info on the SD memory card and file system, and the TCL commands (recognizing the work by Yavianice and others).

 

I have gathered together and posted 7 TCL command files (written by others, including Tomix themselves), with translated and added English comments in them. Some of these you can study while watching linked Youtube videos (made by the same others) of these files in action. You can follow as they execute line-by-line, with a translated TCL file and a Layout Plan diagram printed out for reference.

 

Finally, the "TNOS layouts we would like to see" that I have been sharing on this forum are collected together in a new sub-page of the website.

 

Rich K.

[BrianPearson]

System is called TNOS.  I’m just about to start out with Tomix track and control.  DC or DCC.  I run Tomix and Kato trains.  To convert would be over time to DCC far too much cash.  I’ll stick with DC

[BrianPearson]

Hi. I’m just starting out on a N scale Japanese themed layout DC.  Thinking of the TNOS system.  Will also discover how good Tomix track, points will be

[treble19999]

i was trying to setup layout 14 but received error code number 44 when doing so - would anyone know as to what the problem may be?

[brill27mcb]

3 hours ago, treble19999 said:

i was trying to setup layout 14 but received error code number 44 when doing so - would anyone know as to what the problem may be?

 

I am not familiar with Error Code 44. I don't see it in the original TNOS manual or any of the 4 system updates. Sorry!

 

Rich K.

[Yavianice]

8 hours ago, treble19999 said:

i was trying to setup layout 14 but received error code number 44 when doing so - would anyone know as to what the problem may be?

did you update your tnos box correctly and fully?

[treble19999]

solved this! turns out all I have to do is turn on the ND units before the control box. Thanks!

[brill27mcb]

Thanks for posting the outcome! Now it's part of our public knowledge...

 

The requirement to turn on the ND units before the control box was added with one of the software updates, so it is not mentioned in the original manual.

 

Rich K.

[NEET store manager]

Nice to meet you, I'm ”ニート店長”.
Recently, I updated the subtitles of my video to support the multilingual automatic translation function by Youtube.
This measure is currently limited to recently uploaded videos, but if I have time, I would like to deal with past videos, especially videos uploaded in the early days of TNOS.
I hope my video will help you build your TNOS layout.

 

Edited November 28, 2020 by NEET store manager

[brill27mcb]

Welcome and thank you for doing that!

 

Rich K.

[Yavianice]

@NEET store manager

Hello and welcome! I am very happy about your hard work with the translation and your helpful videos! Thank you very much! I also really like your larger layout in the recent videos! I am still in the process of TNOSing my Lay-out however. 

[Yavianice]

While I was looking through the TNOS manual, I noticed this on page number 6 a small piece about the current consumption of trains, that it should not exceed 1200 mA. But the way they calculate it, is a bit confusing to me. 

 

The table says "Rated Ouput Current", and then a short example list of what different parts of the layout will use. The table of the "Rated Output Current" says that the TNOS Box can output 1200 mA, and an ND Unit can output 1200 mA also. Though, does that mean if I have 4 ND Units on my layout, I can run 5x 6000 mA worth of trains? Or can I only use 1200 mA regardless of how many ND units I have? Or is it 2400 mA because you always have the TNOS box? Does anybody have experience with that?

 

https://www.tomytec.co.jp/tomix/necst/5701tnos/images/5701_manual.pdf

 

(As a reference, I was thinking to run a 16 car Shinkansen with 2 motorcars and lights in all cars. That seems to exceed the Rated Output Current a little, especially considering that TNOS always has 2 trains running at the same time).

[brill27mcb]

I've been a bit confused by this as well. I'm not an electronics engineer, but as a layman it seems to me that the Control Unit and ND units are simply networked together. The network cabling between them is being used to carry data and not to carry high currents. That's why each unit has its own power cord/adapter.

 

I think the current rating of the Control Unit should not be an issue, unless you try to run a lot of things off of its TCS output receptacle. All the other receptacles on it are for network communication connections of varying kinds.

 

It is the ND units that actually power the trains. If all of your current load is in one train like the Shinkansen you mention, then the limiting issue is the current capability of the Feeder Drivers (the removable black plastic boxes in an ND unit). Your whole train has to fit within a block, so one of these "H-bridge" drivers has to be able to handle the current demand of the whole train. After that, the next issue would be the total current load of multiple trains running in blocks that are connected to any single ND unit, plus any occasional brief bursts of power provided to any track switches / points connected to the same ND unit. My belief is that you get a rated maximum of 1200 ma of power from each ND unit to power the trains and points that are connected to it and simultaneously active. Multiple ND units can't "help each other" handle a large current load; each unit has to be able to handle the load(s) placed upon it by the blocks and points wired to it.

 

There is one Japanese Youtube TNOS video where the person puts many locomotives on the track to see what happens under a high current load. If I remember right, the locomotives basically just bog down and run slowly. I don't think I would have wanted to try that with my expensive TNOS unit, and you should also consider the risk yourself before presuming that what I say here is totally correct.

 

Rich K.

[NEET store manager]

Yavianice asked me, "Can I run two" Shinkansen full trains with 2 motors and LED interior lights on all cars "with TNOS Plan 90?"
This question was very interesting to me, so I tried it immediately.

 

 

[brill27mcb]

Thank you for making this video! It is certainly comprehensive. Watching it on Youtube with the subtitle translation made it very clear to understand.

 

The answer seems to be yes, you can run two full-length, LED lighted shinkansen trains successfully, with no speed drop-off and no heating issues on the TNOS components, but you are wise to advise people to watch things carefully for possible malfunctions. When you think about it, to have Tomix make the shinkansen trains as they do and also make a TNOS system that would be incapable of running two of them would seem inconsistent. Since the control blocks are cabled in number order on the ND units, and each train must have an empty block ahead in order to proceed, no more than 2 trains would run at one time on any 4-block ND unit, even on a multi-ND layout where trains advance from one ND unit to another ND unit. It therefore seems that the significant limitation (reached first) is the power capacity of the "black-block" H-bridge track power drivers that slide into the ND units.

 

The second half of the video demonstrates a no-sensor operation of Layout Plan 90, then automatic sequences 1 through 7. It is very good to see these operating modes documented in a video, too. Thanks again!

 

Rich K.

[Yavianice]

37 minutes ago, brill27mcb said:

The answer seems to be yes, you can run two full-length, LED lighted shinkansen trains successfully, with no speed drop-off and no heating issues on the TNOS components, but you are wise to advise people to watch things carefully for possible malfunctions.

 

I think that it might also have something to do with the types of lights you use. @NEET store manager mentioned he uses TORM lights if I'm not mistaken, perhaps these consume less power than the gigantic TOMIX LED's. I was thinking of hooking up an ampere meter to my power pack to look once and for all how much current is used by a 16 car shinkansen (and individual cars/motors/red-white lights etc.). I guess I will check it out when I have time.

[brill27mcb]

21 hours ago, Yavianice said:

 

I think that it might also have something to do with the types of lights you use. @NEET store manager mentioned he uses TORM lights if I'm not mistaken, perhaps these consume less power than the gigantic TOMIX LED's. I was thinking of hooking up an ampere meter to my power pack to look once and for all how much current is used by a 16 car shinkansen (and individual cars/motors/red-white lights etc.). I guess I will check it out when I have time.

 

Yes, I noticed that NEET store manager used TORM LED lighting, not Tomix, and wondered the same thing. I also think the current levels listed by Tomix for motors, head and tail lights, and interior lights are conservative generalizations. That should work in your favor. Does anyone have an idea of the current required by TORM vs. Tomix LED lighting?

 

Overall, the news is good.

 

Rich K.

[NEET store manager]

I roughly investigated what the actual current consumption is for the two Shinkansen trains.

 

 

[brill27mcb]

So, thanks to your test, it is clear that the current consumption of the trains is less (actually a lot less) than the calculations based on the separate figures (motor, head/tail lights and interior lights) listed in the Tomix catalogs and manuals. That's good to know, even with the difference that you are using TORM interior lighting instead of Tomix lighting. The fact that the observed total current of running both trains at once is comfortably less than the stated 1.2 amp rating of the TNOS ND Unit leaves open the question of whether 1.2 amps can be handled in each of 2 blocks wired to the same ND Unit, or whether that is the limit for the whole ND Unit (which I suspect may be true). However, the important general finding is that exceeding the stated current rating would be a rare occurrence at all, since you can run two full-length lighted shinkansen trains at speed and not exceed the limit. I see no practical reason to test at higher current consumption levels.

 

Thanks again for running these informative trials!

 

Rich K.