Tomix New Operation Control System (TNOS)

[inobu]

lol,

 

What do you have to do to operate the tram.

 

Inobu

[gavino200]

2 minutes ago, inobu said:

lol,

 

What do you have to do to operate the tram.

 

Inobu

 

Are you talking about using the tortoise to operate a DC controller? That's pretty clever. 

 

Let me explain the basic situation. I think automation has potential. I like the idea of being to see the layout operating when I'm, sitting near it, reading, exercising, working, or generally not actively involved with it. But mainly manual control is what we do. We play games, like cops'n'robbers etc. Many irregular stops are called for. Think nine year old boy perspective.

 

So manual control would be preferable. The trams could stop wherever. I don't have space for a tram loop, except a very small one. I hope to have space for a singe line with a loop at both ends. I need to make paper templates of tomix tram track to work out if I can do this at both ends of the layout. 

 

If I can made a teardrop loop at both ends physically, I need to find out if I can make it work electrically. I think I know how to do this with DCC using the digitrax (DR64??). I could also set it up with blocks so that it could run automatically.

 

If I physically can't fit a loop at the far end (or if a loop doesn't look good). Then I'll have a fork at at least one end. That wouldn't be fun to run manually. In this case it would have to be automatic. This is also not a problem if control was DCC. I know pretty much how to do this.

 

The problem is if I were to want DC control. The only reason to want DC is to run very small trams, such as the Kato Portram, or some novelty items from Lemke etc. Apparently a DC manual reverse loop is a complicated thing to achieve. I need to learn more about this. 

 

Choices:

1. A D&H tiny decoder just arrived in the mail today (all the way from spain) I bought it for the DF210. I need to see if it has the ability to run a coreless motor. If so, I'm going to eval whether in fact a tiny decoder like this could actually power a Portram. If so then, DCC may be the way to go.

 

2. If the above is a no, then I need to decide whether to give up on coreless motor trams and just used Tomytec trams with DCC.

 

3. If I decide I simply must be able to run coreless motors then I'll have to make a DC solution work.

 

4. I guess a fourth possibility would be to just run novelty coreless motor DC trains on temporary layouts.

[inobu]

To operate your tram now you use the blue transformer to operate it. Your hand makes the motion that applies the voltage to the track.

 

The slow tortoise arm can make the same motion. Attaching the arm to a slider potientiometer will emulate that motion. connecting the pot to the track  will

transfer the DC voltage to the track. Because the tortoise makes a slow movement it can mimic braking and slow starts.

 

The tortoise is operated by the DS64 and therefore controlled via DCC. Because you have to initiate the command it is a manual operation. Simply integrating that command into a system

will make it automated as well.

 

Inobu 

 

 

 

 

[gavino200]

4 minutes ago, inobu said:

To operate your tram now you use the blue transformer to operate it. Your hand makes the motion that applies the voltage to the track.

 

The slow tortoise arm can make the same motion. Attaching the arm to a slider potientiometer will emulate that motion. connecting the pot to the track  will

transfer the DC voltage to the track. Because the tortoise makes a slow movement it can mimic braking and slow starts.

 

The tortoise is operated by the DS64 and therefore controlled via DCC. Because you have to initiate the command it is a manual operation. Simply integrating that command into a system

will make it automated as well.

 

Inobu 

 

 

 

 

 

So it would be a "press one button to set the train in motion" kind of set up. Like what you might see in a museum or something. That's a possibility.

 

The thing I'm most confused about is the polarity question in a DC tear drop reversing loop. I really don't understand how this works. There needs to be a way for the system to know that the train is crossing the junctions and then flip the polarity to keep the train going forward (now the reverse direction along the single line section). I don't really know if that's possible. I'm guessing it must be because, well, ...technology. But I don't have a clue how that is done. 

 

For the control, even if the tram line were to be DC, I'd still like to provide the "DC" to the track via a DCC decoder so that it could be controlled form the same cab as the other trains. Although, if I couldn't do that, it wouldn't be a deal breaker.

[kvp]

41 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

There needs to be a way for the system to know that the train is crossing the junctions and then flip the polarity to keep the train going forward (now the reverse direction along the single line section). I don't really know if that's possible. I'm guessing it must be because, well, ...technology. But I don't have a clue how that is done. 

As i've said if you add the feeder to one of the loops, then throwing both fully power routing Tomix turnouts will switch the polarity of the main track automagically. (the turnouts have double pole double throw switches built in) This takes care of track polarity.

 

Now to throw the switches: if you add one Tomix train sensor to each loop (just before the exits) then throw both turnouts when one is triggered (the closer to exit, the other to entry), then polarities and routes will always match.

[kvp]

48 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

There needs to be a way for the system to know that the train is crossing the junctions and then flip the polarity to keep the train going forward (now the reverse direction along the single line section). I don't really know if that's possible. I'm guessing it must be because, well, ...technology. But I don't have a clue how that is done. 

As i've said if you add the feeder to one of the loops, then throwing both fully power routing Tomix turnouts will switch the polarity of the main track automagically. (the turnouts have double pole double throw switches built in) This takes care of track polarity.

 

Now to throw the switches: if you add one Tomix train sensor to each loop (just before the exits) then throw both turnouts when one is triggered (the closer to exit, the other to entry), then polarities and routes will always match.

 

ps: If you build the system above, then multiple stops could be automated with the old Tomix automatic unit in single train, single loop, single stop mode and by chaining the stop sensors together. (almost any number) The tram will slow down, wait and speed up at all stops as the system will see the layout as a continous loop without turnouts.

[inobu]

The DS64 is a stationary decoder. Typically one issues a switch command to operate a turnout. In this case you are initiating a switch commands to operate the tortoise arm that moves the POT slider that is applying DC to the tram track. Therefore the trams operation is based on a tortoise arm moving a POT slider. instead of a track switch.

 

Get your track together first and then run it with a transformer and then play with it for a while. Then the pieces will come together.

 

inobu

 

 

 

[gavino200]

1 hour ago, kvp said:

As i've said if you add the feeder to one of the loops, then throwing both fully power routing Tomix turnouts will switch the polarity of the main track automagically. (the turnouts have double pole double throw switches built in) This takes care of track polarity.

 

Now to throw the switches: if you add one Tomix train sensor to each loop (just before the exits) then throw both turnouts when one is triggered (the closer to exit, the other to entry), then polarities and routes will always match.

 

Ah. I didn't get what was meant by 'power routing' switches. The electrical DC feed actually goes directly to the switch. Then the switch routs the current two whichever track it's switched to. That's so simple, but brilliant. 

 

The sensor would sense when the train is just at the junction and then flip the switch. I'm guessing there would be a minimum speed needed for this to work?? If the tram went to slowly, the sensor would flip the junction before the tram arrived at the switch, causing the tram to reverse and go back the way it came?

[gavino200]

40 minutes ago, inobu said:

 

Get your track together first and then run it with a transformer and then play with it for a while. Then the pieces will come together.

 

 

Yes, I think that's the way to go. Thanks.

[kvp]

8 hours ago, gavino200 said:

The sensor would sense when the train is just at the junction and then flip the switch. I'm guessing there would be a minimum speed needed for this to work?? If the tram went to slowly, the sensor would flip the junction before the tram arrived at the switch, causing the tram to reverse and go back the way it came?

If you put the power feed into one of the loops, then the loops would always go forward. The turnout would select between the two polarities and switch the selected direction into the mainline. On the other end, the other turnout reverses this for the other loop. The switch in the turnout connects the point end rails to either one direction or the other. No extra feeds are needed there.

 

ps: i would avoid using rheostat (potmeter) control as the Kato trams are kind of binary with it. (stationary then suddenly full speed) A proper linear voltage regulator is what the voltage control circuit inside them is expecting. (not load current control)

[inobu]

18 hours ago, kvp said:

If you put the power feed into one of the loops, then the loops would always go forward. The turnout would select between the two polarities and switch the selected direction into the mainline. On the other end, the other turnout reverses this for the other loop. The switch in the turnout connects the point end rails to either one direction or the other. No extra feeds are needed there.

 

ps: i would avoid using rheostat (potmeter) control as the Kato trams are kind of binary with it. (stationary then suddenly full speed) A proper linear voltage regulator is what the voltage control circuit inside them is expecting. (not load current control)

 

http://www.sumidacrossing.org/LayoutElectricity/ModelTrainPower/PowerPackTesting/files/kato-pack-inside.jpg

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/blog/img/20100721m43.jpg

 

 

Edited February 14, 2018 by cteno4

[kvp]

Inobu, the classic kato throttles are transistor ones. The high value potmeter acts as a voltage divider and just controls the semiconductor drive circuit. It's a voltage controlled voltage regulator not a variable series shunt resistor. (insert facepalm icon here)

[inobu]

1 hour ago, kvp said:

Inobu, the classic kato throttles are transistor ones. The high value potmeter acts as a voltage divider and just controls the semiconductor drive circuit. It's a voltage controlled voltage regulator not a variable series shunt resistor. (insert facepalm icon here)

The POT won't be an issue with it.  (Facepalm).  lol 

Inobu

 

 

Edited February 13, 2018 by inobu

[bill937ca]

TNOS for trams. Too bad they scurry around like bugs. Shown at Yokohama Railway Model Festa 2018.

 

 

Edited April 15, 2018 by bill937ca

[sandiway]

I've been away from the forum a while but with a trip to Japan coming up, I thought I'd drop by and see all the wonderful things people are doing with TNOS, but it seems eerily quiet. Does this mean that TNOS is not successful in the marketplace? I was thinking of picking up a set next month.

[kvp]

4 hours ago, sandiway said:

Does this mean that TNOS is not successful in the marketplace? I was thinking of picking up a set next month.

Many people are still waiting for the signals to come out. Usually you don't want to build a layout and then take it fully apart just to add signals. Also the lack of english documentation on how to program this thing is a real problem for non japanese people. Btw. any pointers in this regard would be appreciated, even a japanese programming guide in google translatable html form would be great.

 

ps: Also many european and US people (including ttrak groups) use Kato unitrack, which the Tomix system is not really compatible. (it would need as much hacking that rolling your own is a better option, which by the way i'm planning to do with the new Tomix signals once they are out)

[sandiway]

17 hours ago, kvp said:

Many people are still waiting for the signals to come out.

I see. Well I was going to pick up a set to experiment with. Nothing permanent. 

 

Along with the manual, someone wrote an English tomix_tnos_system_notes

 

Anyway, I was hoping to find videos or people's experiences with Layout Plan 3: Mode 2. 10 or 11 with 3 trains.

Or Mode 3. 15 o5 14 with 4 trains. Requires two ND units, 8 feeders,  8 or 14 sensors, 20 gap pieces.

[kvp]

4 hours ago, sandiway said:

I see. Well I was going to pick up a set to experiment with. Nothing permanent. 

Along with the manual, someone wrote an English tomix_tnos_system_notes

 

I've checked that out... and it has this line translated from the japanese original:

Quote

Please familiarize yourself with this product. It does not support layouts other than the ones detailed below. We [Tomix] cannot answer questions where it is used for a customer’s own layout design, and we [Tomix] also cannot answer questions about use in combination with other manufacturers’ products, so please understand.

 

So pretty much no programming API. That's something i don't really like. It would be very easy to provide a proper way to write programs (custom layouts) for the system. With this limitation, it's only possible to modify the existing trackplans, but no way to set up a custom one. Imho as long as Tomix doesn't open up the programming API, many people who could really use it won't buy it. The possibility is there as it only needs a firmware update to allow custom track layouts to be added to the SD card.

 

The parts are a different question, i do plan to get the new signals and i have a few sensors, but i'll just use something more open source, like a cheap arduino to wire them up.

[sandiway]

On 7/20/2018 at 12:16 AM, kvp said:

So pretty much no programming API. That's something i don't really like. It would be very easy to provide a proper way to write programs (custom layouts) for the system. With this limitation, it's only possible to modify the existing trackplans, but no way to set up a custom one. Imho as long as Tomix doesn't open up the programming API, many people who could really use it won't buy it. The possibility is there as it only needs a firmware update to allow custom track layouts to be added to the SD card.

Well, can you look at the files already on the SD card given what we know to be the supplied layouts and modes and reverse engineer the data?

 

 Maybe someone with the SD card can dump the contents to this group and someone can look at the files?

[sandiway]

Here is a possible minimum size 14 sensor (in pink) design for layout plan 3 endless EX variant 2 utilizing S37 Wide Tram sensors for the inner loop.

Not sure how well it'd actually work considering my 8 zones are smaller than the one in the manual. I'm considering building this to test.

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by sandiway

[katoftw]

You dont want your sensor right near the edge of a section. Otherwise you dont allow enough time or distance for the train to slow and stop.

[sandiway]

8 minutes ago, katoftw said:

You dont want your sensor right near the edge of a section. Otherwise you dont allow enough time or distance for the train to slow and stop.

Then I have to put sensors in the curves. I notice they only use sensors on straights in the manual (as far as I've examined).

[kvp]

The small plug in sensors work great in curves too. The sensor should be a stopping distance before the next block, so if you go really slow, the half sensor track long stop distance could be just enough.

 

ps: that's also how real life ats balise work, the line speed block signal ones are farther away from the signals than slow speed platform or buffer stop ones

[kvp]

Just a quick technical info i found out: the Tomix TNOS output drivers seem to use 6231 H drivers, which are a single channel forward/reverse H driver ic-s, with the following characteristics: 6-30V, 1A and a 25 kHz PWM cycle in analog conversion mode, which means digital PWM drive signals could go up to 25 kHz too. No apprarent sign of heat sinking in the plug in enclosures. The circuits are identical between the block and the turnout drivers, except the output plugs and the mixup prevention notches on the outside.

 

ps: i would really like to see the new TNOS signals and see whether they use i2c or similar...

 

[sandiway]

I did return from Osaka with the new TNOS system. I haven't had the guts to try to read the manual and test it yet. (I'm not a Japanese speaker.)