Tomix New Operation Control System (TNOS)

[brill27mcb]

For trains to run pretty smoothly, without a lot of stopping and starting, each train basically needs an empty ("clear") block ahead to go into. They each need "somewhere to go." (Perversely, providing additional clear blocks simply lets the trains eventually all catch up to the slowest train and follow it.)

 

With the momentary TCS sensors in just one spot on every block (instead of having continuous detection throughout the length of a block), a train behind another train does not know its next block is clear until the train ahead reaches the sensor two blocks ahead. So, as a general rule for smooth operation, I divide the number of blocks in half to figure out how many trains can run smoothly. That is with a parade of trains on a continuous oval. Thus TNOS layout #8, the 8-block simple oval, can handle four trains pretty smoothly. (Think one track direction on a T-Trak layout.) The intermediate empty block is a "yellow" signal block, and the TNOS system slows the train to about half of its maximum speed setting in this block, until it determines that the block ahead has become "clear."

 

On a single-track oval with a passing siding (TNOS layouts #1, 2 and 3EX), the trains start next to each other in the passing siding. If they were to run in opposite directions, they would meet head-on on the other side of the oval, so you can not do that. The two trains must run in the same direction, following each other around the oval and maybe doing an "express passing the local train" action at the passing siding. Adding a passing siding on the other side of the oval (TNOS layouts #3EX1, 3EX2 and 6) solves this limitation, and you can run two trains in opposite directions, or increase to three or four trains with stopping actions and directional limitations.

 

A point-to-point layout with center passing siding (TNOS layout #5) can handle two trains, meeting and passing at the passing siding. This is like one of the 5563 layouts, but with TNOS you can run two trains instead of just one. (Think of the Setagaya line, by lengthening the passing siding to be the whole line except for single-track end terminals.) If Tomix added a layout with two passing sidings, each one-third along the layout, you could run three trains smoothly back and forth, using two ND units. (Think of Enoden.)

 

TNOS layouts #1, 4 and 5  are examples of needing just one ND unit and improving on the operations possible with the older single-train 5563 control.

 

The TNOS instructions make clear that each block needs to be long enough to fit your longest train between the block "entry gap" (insulated rail joiners) and the TCS sensor, as well as long enough after the TCS sensor so that the train can coast to a stop before reaching the block "exit gap." Thus, the TNOS blocks need to be longer for long trains and fast trains, and they can be shorter for short, slower trains and trams. Blocks would also need to be longer if used bidirectionally, except if you look closely at the Tomix TNOS demonstration layout videos you will see that they quietly use two daisy-chained TCS sensors on each passing siding, so they can have trains operate in either the same direction or in opposite directions.

 

Rich K.

Edited November 4, 2017 by brill27mcb

[kvp]

39 minutes ago, brill27mcb said:

Blocks would also need to be longer if used bidirectionally, except if you look closely at the Tomix TNOS demonstration layout videos you will see that they quietly use two daisy-chained TCS sensors on each passing siding, so they can have trains operate in either the same direction or in opposite directions.

The reason for this is that TCS sensors are directional when used with DC power, so only one of the sensors would fire. The train length + stop length limitation means the system does not support microblocks, when a train occupies more than two blocks while transitioning from one block to the other. This is probably to simplify control as the logic doesn't have to take train lengths into consideration as one train could only trigger one sensor at a time and trailing trains only have to be kept one block behind. (a train occupies one block when stopped at a sensor or two blocks when moving between two sensors)

 

Point sensors have the advantage of allowing very precise platform and signal stopping locations and unlike block occupancy sensors, they only trigger for a certain direction when the train is fully in that block, so the block behind it could be cleared. This simplifies control logic a lot and is used for many irl balise based safety systems.

 

ps: We really need signal drivers for this system, so each block could have at least a 3 color signal (green/yellow/red), which would be a good compromise as a combined entery/exit/block signal.

[brill27mcb]

6 hours ago, kvp said:

 . . . We really need signal drivers for this system, so each block could have at least a 3 color signal (green/yellow/red), which would be a good compromise as a combined entry/exit/block signal.

 

There is a key on the TNOS keypad with a signal head symbol on it, so that looks promising. The control unit has green, yellow, red and  double red LED indicators for the train it is monitoring, and the units have TCS sockets.

 

I am still hoping that someone here who can read Japanese will translate the section of the 5701 Manual that describes the names and functions of the keypad keys (shown below). Who call tell us what it says?

 

Rich K.

 

Edited November 4, 2017 by brill27mcb

[Kiha66]

According to my phone-based google translate, the button is called signal, and the body text says currently not supported, which seems to suggest it will be implemented in the future. 

[Davo Dentetsu]

We're having a test of a TNOS unit today.  I guess stand by for upcoming results?  Exciting times in WA...

[brill27mcb]

Just found this:

 

 

Wayside signals coming to TNOS in 2018...

 

The boxes seem to read as follows:

2017

  Top:  * October: TNOS Basic Set released;  * October: ND Unit released

  Bottom:  TNOS released!!

2018

  Top:  * Start  layout pattern distribution;  * TNOS-compliant signals to be released

  Bottom:  Expansion of peripherals wiring

2019

  Top (box):  TNOS Extended Product. A long-awaited signal will appear, that can be displayed in conjunction with TNOS. By installing signals, you can enjoy more realistic driving. Compatibility group with on-board camera system offered! You can enjoy TNOS from a driver's view. Please expect release in the spring of 2018.

  Bottom: Application interlocking mix. [??]

2020

  Bottom: Fulfillment of function in 2020.

 

Rich K.

[kvp]

I just googled what we have now and found this:

http://www.tomytec.co.jp/tomix/necst/5701tnos/

There are two pdf-s linked on the page, the interesting one is the 5701 manual. It has a full port description (in japanse) for both the central and the i/o boxes.

 

A bit of facts and some of my speculation:

-the type A communiction port that is used to chain all i/o boxes is a 3 conductor one and we know that it allows bidirectional communication, this could be anything, like a rs232 serial line or i2c, but it has a terminating jumper option next to the connectors, so it could even be rs485, which actually needs one (or can which is also differential)

-the type B communication port is a 4 pin one and not used right now (and no terminator jumper near it)

-there is an i2c port on both boxes with 4 pins, so i assume it's power/ground/data/clock (usually between 3.3V and 5.0V)

-the control unit also has a 5 pin communication port (which could be something along the line of a host mode capable usb port)

 

The type B could be reserved for daisy chaining signals, but imho the i2c ports could also support them with a bit smarter logic in the signals. Or a dedicated signal decoder box could be added later for using dumb signals with 4 or 7 wires for the 3 or 6 aspect signal masts.

 

ps: If someone has the TNOS and could submit a few wire protocol scans (from a scope or a logic analyzer) for the main bus, that could shed more light on the inner workings of the system. I'm also looking forward to seeing how the signals are connected.

[kvp]

Update: With a bit of digging around, i've found a few pictures:

http://news.amiami.jp/event/2017/11/87373.html

(pictures 10, 11, 12)

The signal setup seems to be connected to the 4 pin port on the i/o boxes in a daisy chained fashion. This probably means 2 pins are power and ground, the other 2 are not trivial, probably the control signals (uni or bidirectional). 12V TCS power is taken from the white and black wires, but this looks like a temporary hack. They seem to be using the old automatic signals as prototype boxes for the new signal electronics. I think B ports have 12V and ground in them besides two data pins.

 

And a video, showing that these demo signals react to the train passing them and drop to red, so seems to be somewhat semi automatic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BRX8mlDAgY Which is somewhat more restricting to having standalone signals that could be placed anywhere and having the threadle sensors attach to any track (like a curve). Of course this is easier and cheaper than having 2 sensors for each block (a brake start sensor and a signal passing sensor), but the 2nd is more flexible.

 

Edited November 21, 2017 by kvp

[brill27mcb]

The TNOS Control Unit includes "signal" LEDs (green, yellow and red) that show the block status of whichever train you care to  watch, as well as its speed number on the numerical display. It would seem to me that the indications are therefore already being tracked for every operating train, and it would just be a matter of getting that info out to the model wayside signals. Each model signal would probably be located just beyond the sensor that is already there. The signals for travel in the opposing direction on bidirectional blocks would just be made red.

 

The basic Tomix TCS "prong" sensor can be inserted in the middle of any curved track piece, just like the DC feeder can be.

 

Thanks for the info on the various ports, mostly unused at this early stage of the game. Since the only cabling used now is the 3-wire cable, and since the trains do not speed up while bridging the insulated gaps, I assume that the PWM pulses are already being synchronized between the various system boxes.

 

This amazingly long (nearly 2 hour) Youtube video is instructive in places, since you can see the keypad and display on the Control Box while it is being set up and then run:

 

 

Rich K.

[sandiway]

It does seem rather preprogrammed. (1) you choose the layout, and then (5) you choose the mode of operation. I guess the possible layouts and modes are on that SD card?

[brill27mcb]

7 hours ago, sandiway said:

It does seem rather preprogrammed. (1) you choose the layout, and then (5) you choose the mode of operation. I guess the possible layouts and modes are on that SD card?

 

Yes, that's it.

 

Rich K.

[brill27mcb]

I have been keeping busy, carefully studying the Tomix TNOS manual and setting up a layout to try mine out.

 

As part of this effort, I have created a video giving basic information in English on the TNOS system. It's here on Youtube:

 

 

Rich K.

[cteno4]

Excellent video rich! Kudos, u da man!

 

thanks

 

jeff

[NXCALE]

On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 6:07 AM, brill27mcb said:

I have been keeping busy, carefully studying the Tomix TNOS manual and setting up a layout to try mine out.

 

As part of this effort, I have created a video giving basic information in English on the TNOS system. It's here on Youtube:

 

 

Rich K.

Very good and helpful, thanks for sharing.

[Gordon Werner]

Yes thank you Rich ...  (just accidentally started a new topic on this) ...

 

now we just need someone to translate the manual in English ツ 

 

 

 

http://www.tomytec.co.jp/tomix/necst/5701tnos/images/system_manual1113.pdf 

 

Also thank you for this video showing the different operating modes:

 

[brill27mcb]

2 hours ago, Gordon Werner said:

Yes thank you Rich ...  (just accidentally started a new topic on this) ...

 

now we just need someone to translate the manual in English ツ 

http://www.tomytec.co.jp/tomix/necst/5701tnos/images/system_manual1113.pdf 

 

Also thank you for this video showing the different operating modes:

 

 

Thanks, Gordon. The layout schemes are pretty understandable just by looking at the diagrams. Glad you spotted my second video (above).

 

Today I added a Tomix TNOS page to my Tomix website (www.trainweb.org/tomix/) which brings together links to official Tomix documents (in Japanese) and my own items in English so far. Included in the latter now is a 15-page document in English that serves as a companion to the 38-page Tomix 5701 TNOS manual. Using those two together should answer many questions for you.

 

Rich K.

[Gordon Werner]

22 minutes ago, brill27mcb said:

 

Thanks, Gordon. The layout schemes are pretty understandable just by looking at the diagrams. Glad you spotted my second video (above).

 

Today I added a Tomix TNOS page to my Tomix website (www.trainweb.org/tomix/) which brings together links to official Tomix documents (in Japanese) and my own items in English so far. Included in the latter now is a 15-page document in English that serves as a companion to the 38-page Tomix 5701 TNOS manual. Using those two together should answer many questions for you.

 

Rich K.

 

cool ... will checkout tonight ...

[gavino200]

This is a pretty cool system. It might work for what I want - a tram line that goes over and back from one side to the layout to the other. It looks like I could have three trams making the run in succession. One tram arrives - another leaves. But this system isn't cheap and it looks like it's overkill for what I want. 

 

People early on mentioned Arduino systems for doing this. I'm pretty good at building electronic systems when I have instructions. But I don't understand complex electronics, and I don't write code. Does anyone know if there is a step by step instruction for making and programming a system for my simple needs.

 

Honestly, I enjoy manual operation. I would just find start-stop-reverse-repeat boring to do manually. A reversing loop on each end of a single line might actually suit me better. Can anyone point me in the right way to easy to understand instructions on how to do that. Thanks.

 

I'm going to start reading the Sumida Crossing article on the subject. but it'll take me a while to absorb. 

[gavino200]

On 7/13/2017 at 7:06 AM, kvp said:

 

 

 

KV, I have a question for you.  I was reading Sumida Crossing regarding Arduino control of a tram line. I came across the following warning. 

 

"Warning: The Arduino uses Pulse-Width Modulation (PWM), a type of pulsed power, to control DC motors. This is fine for most motors, but “coreless” motors run at low speeds on pulsed power can overheat to the point of self-destruction. Most DC train motors aren’t coreless, but I’ve heard rumors that Kato’s Unitram motors are coreless. These are ultra-small motors developed to make cellphones vibrate by spinning a weight at high speed for a short time. I’m setting my program up to use “ultrasonic” PWM (which is not the default on an Arduino), and that should avoid problems with coreless motors. But if you’re using Unitrams or other coreless-motor designs, you’ll want to be careful. "

 

Can you confirm whether this is true? If so then it would be a deal-breaker for me. The only purpose of keeping a tram line DC for me would be to run these tiny trains. Otherwise, I'd just make the line DCC and instally decoders. 

 

Sorry, I just "quoted" you to summon you here. Sort of like a 'Bat signal'. 

[kvp]

Yes, the Kato trams have these small pager motors in each bogie and they are very sensitive. There is a protection circuit before them, but afaik that only protects against too high voltages.

 

In theory both the Tomix PWM (all modern CL controllers) and the modified Arduino code mentioned above use high frequency and should be safe. Going DCC is a bit harder as not all DCC decoders support high frequency PWM and you probably have to select it manually during decoder programming. (very much like on the Arduino, 32 kHz should be fine for both DC and DCC) Older or dumb DCC decoders and ancient Tomix CL controllers might cause some problems though.

[gavino200]

33 minutes ago, kvp said:

Yes, the Kato trams have these small pager motors in each bogie and they are very sensitive. There is a protection circuit before them, but afaik that only protects against too high voltages.

 

In theory both the Tomix PWM (all modern CL controllers) and the modified Arduino code mentioned above use high frequency and should be safe. Going DCC is a bit harder as not all DCC decoders support high frequency PWM and you probably have to select it manually during decoder programming. (very much like on the Arduino, 32 kHz should be fine for both DC and DCC) Older or dumb DCC decoders and ancient Tomix CL controllers might cause some problems though.

 

I understand the first sentence. "Arduino bad for tiny train. Arduino burn tiny train".

 

I don't understand the second paragraph. Could you give me a little ELIF (Explain like I'm five). I'm sure I could build an arduino (or other) system if I found step-by-step instructions. But I don't understand complex electronics, and I don't do any coding. Basically, I'm trying to find out what's possible and what would work best for my simple needs. 

 

BTW my goal is a simple single line with reversing loops a both ends. I think this isn't hard to do with a DCC system. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm just a bit interested in trying to do the same thing with DC so I run the itsy-bitsy-teeny-tiny trams. AFAIK they can't be DCC'd.

 

 

Edited February 12, 2018 by gavino200

[kvp]

3 hours ago, gavino200 said:

I understand the first sentence. "Arduino bad for tiny train. Arduino burn tiny train".

I don't understand the second paragraph. Could you give me a little ELIF (Explain like I'm five). I'm sure I could build an arduino (or other) system if I found step-by-step instructions. But I don't understand complex electronics, and I don't do any coding. Basically, I'm trying to find out what's possible and what would work best for my simple needs. 

Ok, to put it simple, the Arduino could drive the small trams as good as a Tomix system, but you'll need a software for it that sets the drive frequency to high instead of the low that is used by default. The extra hardware needed is just a H bridge motor driver board made for arduinos.

 

Coreless motors are sensitive. You could DCC them, but that usually needs a special decoder board designed just for them and then some precision surgery to install it. It can be done with a Digitrax decoder but you have to change the software on it, otherwise it will also burn the motors. (drive frequency set to 32 kHz and disable backemf detection)

 

If you want an easy reversing loop, then i suggest you to use Tomix turnouts as they are fully power routing and you could just build a reversing loop and it will work. The only automation that you'll need is to throw the two turnouts when the trams near the exit of the loops. You can use an Arduino to monitor two Tomix TCS wheel sensors and use a H bridge driver to throw the turnouts in synch. If you connect a regular DC speed controller to one of the loops, then the main single track section will automatically reverse polarity when the sensors throw the turnouts. This will work with any DC speed controller, including the classic Kato linear ones that were meant to be used with the Kato trams. You can even use DCC with it as this turnout driver circuit does not connect to the track electrically. (the Tomix TCS sensors are optically isolated)

 

[gavino200]

8 hours ago, kvp said:

Ok, to put it simple, the Arduino could drive the small trams as good as a Tomix system, but you'll need a software for it that sets the drive frequency to high instead of the low that is used by default. The extra hardware needed is just a H bridge motor driver board made for arduinos.

 

Coreless motors are sensitive. You could DCC them, but that usually needs a special decoder board designed just for them and then some precision surgery to install it. It can be done with a Digitrax decoder but you have to change the software on it, otherwise it will also burn the motors. (drive frequency set to 32 kHz and disable backemf detection)

 

If you want an easy reversing loop, then i suggest you to use Tomix turnouts as they are fully power routing and you could just build a reversing loop and it will work. The only automation that you'll need is to throw the two turnouts when the trams near the exit of the loops. You can use an Arduino to monitor two Tomix TCS wheel sensors and use a H bridge driver to throw the turnouts in synch. If you connect a regular DC speed controller to one of the loops, then the main single track section will automatically reverse polarity when the sensors throw the turnouts. This will work with any DC speed controller, including the classic Kato linear ones that were meant to be used with the Kato trams. You can even use DCC with it as this turnout driver circuit does not connect to the track electrically. (the Tomix TCS sensors are optically isolated)

 

 

Thanks KV. This post is massively helpful. It looks like I have quite a few options. I think I'll start by designing a track that will fit our layout and look good. Then decide what kind of control would be most fun. Then work out how to make that happen electrically.

[inobu]

Gavin,

 

Watch the black arms movement and think how you can use it for the tram. 

 

Think DS64

 

 

 

 

Inobu

 

 

 

 

[gavino200]

25 minutes ago, inobu said:

Gavin,

 

Watch the black arms movement and think how you can use it for the tram. 

 

Think DS64

 

 

 

 

Inobu

 

 

 

 

 

Inobu, you give me too much credit. I'll have to think about this for a while to work out what you mean. But I love puzzles, so that's good.