Tomix New Operation Control System (TNOS)

[kvp]

5 hours ago, JR 500系 said:

While the TNOS system seems mighty interesting, it can also give someone like me who have close to nothing knowledge about the currents and operating system a big headache... Would someone with minimum or no Japanese language proficiency be able to buy and use the TNOS system as per his requirement?

If you stuck to the default programs, then it's just follow the pictures to have a working system. On the other hand, if you want to set it to a custom program, then you have to know how to program or get/buy someone else's program.

 

Btw. program 10 is using 16 blocks, which means 4 i/o expansion boxes. (the part lists are in the small boxes near the images) It would allow up to 15 trains to move around the layout or more realistically 8 at a time. When someone has two mostly independent loops, that would allow 32 blocks or up to 30 trains (16 realistically) with two control boxes and 8 i/o boxes. Imho this is pretty impressive and it could still be scaled up.

 

If anyone finds some info on how to program the i/o boxes raw, so without the central control box, i would be interested as adding an arduino in place of the Tomix control box could make programming easier. (at least for a c programmer, like me)

[brill27mcb]

Plan #8 is just what I am looking for...

 

Rich K.

[velotrain]

For maximum number of running trams, while #7 seems like a more prototypical Japanese tram application - although, I know you're an international kind of guy running everything.

[sandiway]

Layout plan 6 seems strangely limited to me. It says max of 2 trains moving at a time.

But surely with 8 sensors, 6 feeders, and two pass-through sidings, utilizing 2 units, one can have more than 2 trains?

[katoftw]

4 minutes ago, sandiway said:

Layout plan 6 seems strangely limited to me. It says max of 2 trains moving at a time.

But surely with 8 sensors, 6 feeders, and two pass-through sidings, utilizing 2 units, one can have more than 2 trains?

Up to five trains on that one. Only one section needs to be clear to move a train into that clear section.

[sandiway]

13 minutes ago, katoftw said:

Up to five trains on that one. Only one section needs to be clear to move a train into that clear section.

So why do they say 2?

[velotrain]

I'll gladly yield to the more techie guys, but it looks to me that they're saying only one train can be moving on each "side" of the layout - and then only if there are less than five total trains.  There are two sidings on each half, but only a single block on each end.  That says to me that on each half one train can be moving from one of the sidings to the end block, OR from the end block to whichever siding is open.  In my view it's quite silly to even consider putting five different trains on this as it creates semi-gridlock, with only one of the five able to move a single block at a time.  Watching this repeat five times in a row for each train ad nauseum, would get really tedious very quickly.

 

This somewhat echoes what I said earlier, that the possible scenarios Tomix presents may create a gee whiz factor, but when you start to analyze just what you'd be interested in doing AND watching, the number of viable options starts getting reduced.  I'm not at all suggesting that this isn't a worthwhile unit, but you need to be realistic in your expectations.

[velotrain]

kvp (or anyone else) - What's your take on whether 5, 7, 9 and 10 will allow cloning to provide a second intermediate station, such as you can with the 5563?

 

[katoftw]

34 minutes ago, velotrain said:

kvp (or anyone else) - What's your take on whether 5, 7, 9 and 10 will allow cloning to provide a second intermediate station, such as you can with the 5563?

 

Those are preset programs. The system is expandable and you can make your own programs. (I think...)

[katoftw]

5 hours ago, sandiway said:

So why do they say 2?

You may be right. Trains running opposite direction as eachother will lower total trains allowed.

[velotrain]

46 minutes ago, katoftw said:

Those are preset programs. The system is expandable and you can make your own programs. (I think...)

 

Yes, but the 5563 also has preset programs, and there are a number of them where you can clone a function by using a splitter for turnouts and sensors.

 

It's entirely possible that this can't be answered for certain until the actual unit is available.

 

[bill937ca]

 

[bill937ca]

 

 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2017 by bill937ca

[JR 500系]

Amazing!

 

While it's really fun, being the electronic and system noob that I am, i'm having a really huge headache trying to figure out how it works...

 

That layout looks really good by the way!

[kvp]

39 minutes ago, JR 500系 said:

While it's really fun, being the electronic and system noob that I am, i'm having a really huge headache trying to figure out how it works...

 

Essentially the layout is divided into blocks and each block has its own controller that is set by the central unit. It senses the position of the trains by the wheel sensors placed near the end of each block. This allows it to stop a train in time until the end of the block if the schedule demands it or there is a train in front of it in the next block.Turnouts are also controlled by the central unit. The programs are a description of the layout schedule. The central unit follows the positon of each train and calculates speeds for each block's controller to avoid collisions and to make the trains run on time.

 

The get a similar system without automation, you just have to isolate blocks from each other and then add one speed controller to each one and use your eyes and hands to control up to 16 speed controllers at the same time to achive the same manually that the new system does automatically.

Edited November 1, 2017 by kvp

[Khaul]

12 hours ago, JR 500系 said:

Amazing!

 

While it's really fun, being the electronic and system noob that I am, i'm having a really huge headache trying to figure out how it works...

 

That layout looks really good by the way!

 

Hmm, it should not be that hard... everything is already done in terms of electronics. The cable spaghetti you can get is a bit daunting, though. That can be ameliorated with very good organisation. I am getting to increasingly regret having started with Kato Unitrack. But well, my next project, hopefully a fix layout, would be Tomix. 

[JR 500系]

1 hour ago, Khaul said:

 

Hmm, it should not be that hard... everything is already done in terms of electronics. The cable spaghetti you can get is a bit daunting, though. That can be ameliorated with very good organisation. I am getting to increasingly regret having started with Kato Unitrack. But well, my next project, hopefully a fix layout, would be Tomix. 

 

Hhmm... my current analog layout already has a mess of wires from the switches and lights and crossings and everything... I don't think I might be able to handle the TNOS system though...

 

Kato's not that bad either... least for now they have the sound card system ~

[Khaul]

3 hours ago, JR 500系 said:

 

Hhmm... my current analog layout already has a mess of wires from the switches and lights and crossings and everything... I don't think I might be able to handle the TNOS system though...

 

Kato's not that bad either... least for now they have the sound card system ~

 

We need a wireless TNOS! 

 

Or maybe something like a digital TNOS so a control signal travels through the rails with decoders in the train detectors and switches, but not in the trains themselves.

[velotrain]

1 hour ago, Khaul said:

 

We need a wireless TNOS! 

 

Or maybe something like a digital TNOS so a control signal travels through the rails with decoders in the train detectors and switches, but not in the trains themselves.

 

But then they couldn't sell all those cables and extensions ;-)

 

That's probably where they make the real money, just as restaurants get most of their profits from alcohol sales. 

[kvp]

Even DCC has only a very limited feedback support, so the rails are not the best place to have a bidirectional bus, especially with analog motors putting all the noise in. There would still be a need for a power bus too. Having a separate daisy chainable power and signal bus might work though, it would need at least 3 wires, 2 for power and 1 for comms. It would be even possible to have these wires in the roadbed tracks, but that would mean a complete redesign of the current track system and having 2 rails and 3 wires connect on every track join. The new system was designed to allow as much existing components to be kept as possible and to keep costs down, each IO box has support for 4 blocks. I think this was meant to allow each box to be mounted under the station it serves to minimize cable salad. A wireless option would be possible for data, but imho wireless power is not a good idea, so that would still need wires. And the cost of a single train detector would be around the same as a 4 blocks, 4 turnouts IO box now.

 

ps: if you add train detection, turnout control and boosters to a DCC layout, you end up with the exact same amount of cables than with the Tomix system, so currently there is no easier to wire system on the market

Edited November 2, 2017 by kvp

[brill27mcb]

Tomix has put an updated version of its TNOS page on its website:

http://www.tomytec.co.jp/tomix/necst/5701tnos/

 

It shows more details of the 10 layouts for which they written programs, and the operating programs for each one.There are also links to PDF files for a 5701 Manual, a new TNOS System Manual, a "Quick Start" manual for layout #1, and some sort of FAQ sheet. The 5701 Manual is most interesting, showing the alternative operating sequences for each layout and all the cabling:

http://www.tomytec.co.jp/tomix/necst/5701tnos/images/5701_manual.pdf

 

---->  Can someone who can read Japanese please translate for us the descriptions of the buttons in the control pad? (See bottom of page 12 of the 5701 Manual.)

 

I also spotted that Hobby Search is now listing the Feeder and Points cartridges that go into the openings on the ND unit:

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/search?typ1_c=104&cat=rail&state=&sold=0&sortid=0&searchkey=Tomix+TNOS

 

It is still unclear to me whether they are being sold separately just to be replacements for ones that go bad, or whether we can plug Feeder cartridges into Points openings (or the reverse) to customize the ND unit to our need. I think such customization is out of the question until users can write their own TNOS operating programs, and I see no evidence yet that we can. I think purchasers get the small memory card with Tomix's pre-written programs on it and that is it, at least for now.

 

Rich K.

[sandiway]

2 hours ago, brill27mcb said:

http://www.tomytec.co.jp/tomix/necst/5701tnos/images/5701_manual.pdf

Wow, it's complicated! (Must buy!)

 

As someone who has and uses a 5563, it seems as each T-ND100 unit can only have 2 points/4 feeders/4 sensors, you only start to win with the new system in terms of functionality with at least 2 T-ND100 units. I'm also really surprised each T-ND100 unit seems to come with its own AC adapter instead of being powered through the control unit. 

 

To win with the new system, it seems an initial investment of around $800 (control + 2 T-ND100s) is necessary. Makes the 5563 a bargain!

[brill27mcb]

I use the 5563, too. The TNOS basic set (5701) comes with one ND unit, so the cost is not as high as you may think. However, for 2 ND units you also need up to 14 TCS sensors for the 10 layouts shown and 8 track block feeder cables. The 5563 is pretty much limited to a single train running at one time (it accelerates/decelerates/reverses/pauses the entire layout), and the TNOS system breaks that barrier.

 

Rich K.

Edited November 3, 2017 by brill27mcb

[sandiway]

1 hour ago, brill27mcb said:

The TNOS basic set (5701) comes with one ND unit, so the cost is not as high as you may think. However, for 2 ND units you also need up to 14 TCS sensors for the 10 layouts shown and 8 track block feeder cables. The 5563 is pretty much limited to a single train running at one time (it accelerates/decelerates/reverses/pauses the entire layout), and the TNOS system breaks that barrier.

That's good to know. So upgrade is $600 + extra sensors/feeders etc. over what 5563 owners already have.

Looking at the attached diagram with 6 sensors/6 feeders/2 points (needing  2ND units), once the first trains clears sectors 1 and 3, it appears we can have simultaneous running of two trains.

It seems one needs two sector spacing between trains to be continuous running, i.e. running in one sector, the next sector must also be free and ready to accept a train.

 

With two units there is capacity for two more feeders and two more sensors, so we could have two more sectors, but I wonder whether this is useful, e.g. can one run a third train?

Edited November 3, 2017 by sandiway

[kvp]

Each block driver can have a set direction and speed. If you set up 16 loops with 16 platform stop sensors, in theory it would be possible to have 16 trains running. Or 8 trains on a 16 block layout or if you are running a staging yard, then 15 trains on a 16 slot fifo queue.