Short points...

[AllScales]

For my Hakone Tozan layout I need some short points in order to get it all to fit in the small space...

 

I have some Kato Compact points, but the 45 degree angle is just way too much!

 

So what about the Tomix compact points?

 

I can see this:

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10046278

 

I assume all Tomix things can go through this?

The listing says "Dummy point motors", can they be powered?

Do they do polarity switching?

 

So far I'm looking at Peco Setrack, but getting the wiring right is proving to be nightmare!

 

Quite willing to spend a bit more on something easier!

 

Thanks,

 

Friso

[bill937ca]

Mini Fine Track 91082 has 140-30 manual points only.Manual points for 140-30 are not sold separately.

 

The electric 140-30 points are Tomix 1231 and 1232.

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10046033

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10046032

 

The matching curve is 140-30.

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10064021

 

There are also R103 and R177 curves and a 280-15 Y point.

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10037825

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/search?typ1_c=104&cat=rail&state=&sold=0&sortid=0&searchkey=Mini+fine+track

Edited February 28, 2017 by bill937ca

[bill937ca]

List of rolling stock for Super Mini Rail and Mini Rail.    http://www.tomytec.co.jp/tomix/products/n/smc_mc_sharyo.htm

[splifdfx]

Tomix Hakone Tozan rolling stock (2000 and 3000 series) will work nicely with those points.
Most of the Tomytec Tetsudou Collection too.

 

Longer cars will derail when taking the curved direction of the point.

[kvp]

For a Hakone Tozan layout, the minimal curve should be 140 mm as this is the minimum for the Hakone Tozan emus made by Modemo.

 

The Tomix mini turnouts are fully power routing and also cuttable without a short (spring loaded, split frog). The manual variants are great for trailing points, often used on prototype tram networks. Full power routing means it's possible to build reverse loops without extra isolation or track polarity switching circuits. (the outer rails are also isolated and both are disconnected in the not selected direction) Ideally only the turnouts are needed to control block power, so two or more controllers can be used and the turnouts (if set up right) will automatically route the right controller to the selected track.

 

This is a speciality of Tomix Finetrack as even Unitrack works like the classic Peco electrofrog system.

[velotrain]

 Full power routing means it's possible to build reverse loops without extra isolation or track polarity switching circuits.

 

What happens when the train / tram comes back to the turnout at the completion of the reverse loop?

 

I should think it would (try to) reverse as it passes over the isolation point.

[kvp]

If you feed the tracks from the loop and throw the turnout (manually or with TCS sensors) before the train completes the loop, then the mainline polarity will reverse automatically. With two loops it's possible to have continous running on a single track line without reversing the controller or even stopping. It needs a single control switch or two TCS sensors and a bistable turnout driver circuit for full automation.

 

The trick with full power routing is always where to connect the controllers, so the turnouts could select between them.

 

For a Hakone Tozan point to point layout, one controller between each station would allow simultanious running of multiple trains. Switchback stations allow two train movements in straight and single train movement in crossing directions. Two track bypass stations need the two turnouts (3 with a safety derail added to the valley side departure track) to be switched together, so two trains could enter or leave at the same time. This would only need a single turnout control switch and no extra isolation. Entry and exit signals could also follow the turnouts, allowing a single switch to control everything. (4-6 signals and 2-3 turnouts)

[velotrain]

With two loops it's possible to have continous running on a single track line without reversing the controller or even stopping. It needs a single control switch or two TCS sensors and a bistable turnout driver circuit for full automation.

 

 

This sounds like the small layout you were working on, but I haven't seen it lately.

[kvp]

This sounds like the small layout you were working on, but I haven't seen it lately.

It's actually half sceniced as i have to put together another half dozen small buildings (greenmax ones) to have at least one end module (the combined tram oval/interurban ballon loop one) filled with buildings at least partially (it's 70x40 cm). I'm also working on 4 ttrak modules at the same time and 3 (hungarian themed) fremo ones. (and i can't really do any modelling in my office as it's against company rules)

[AllScales]

For a Hakone Tozan layout, the minimal curve should be 140 mm as this is the minimum for the Hakone Tozan emus made by Modemo.

 

The Tomix mini turnouts are fully power routing and also cuttable without a short (spring loaded, split frog). The manual variants are great for trailing points, often used on prototype tram networks. Full power routing means it's possible to build reverse loops without extra isolation or track polarity switching circuits. (the outer rails are also isolated and both are disconnected in the not selected direction) Ideally only the turnouts are needed to control block power, so two or more controllers can be used and the turnouts (if set up right) will automatically route the right controller to the selected track.

 

This is a speciality of Tomix Finetrack as even Unitrack works like the classic Peco electrofrog system.

Hi KVP,

 

That sounds ideal, I have also spotted that they have 280mm points which might just do it too... The full power routing and split frogs in particular sounds very good.

 

In my trawl through the pages and pages of track I saw there is a detector track:

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10066031

 

Is this any good? I might automate the layout at some stage and this could be useful.

 

Back to drawing board for now, thanks all for your help (again)!

[kvp]

Yes, the detector tracks are good. Actually slightly more reliable than the detector plugs that could be inserted everywhere (including curves), but could slip out of place. Both detector types have a rather simple interface, a middle ground wire and two signal wires. They pull down one of the signal wires to ground depending on the DC direction. Signal level is 5V TTL, so you have to weakly pull the two data wires up to 5V to work. Daisy chainable and could be connected to the built in pullup equipped ports of an Arduino (or any other 5V microcontroller) like any mechanical pushbutton. The plugs could be added later, while you have to design in the detector tracks.

 

(one simple circuit is one direction sets, another clears a flip flop with pulled up and low active inputs and complementary outputs, which controls a half H bridge, that drives the 2 series capacitor limited turnouts of the two reversing loops and the 2 or 4 sensors are daisy chained half of them with flipped data wires, i used a pic12f508 and an L293D for this, but it could be built from discrete parts too)

 

This is the plug in type i had to use in the R140 curves of my loops: http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10028732

 

ps:

The Tomix R280 Y points are good, but the left/right ones have the same large curve problem as the Kato R150 ones.

[velotrain]

 

 

That sounds ideal, I have also spotted that they have 280mm points which might just do it too... The full power routing and split frogs in particular sounds very good.

 

 

ps:

The Tomix R280 Y points are good, but the left/right ones have the same large curve problem as the Kato R150 ones.

 

 

Tomix has a good range of track products, but this is my one complaint.  For a siding / crossover type point, there is a very sharp one at 140, but then the next one is all the way out at 541mm.  No doubt this relates to their geometry, but it makes designing a pain.

 

AllScales - depending on your comfort level, you could shorten the curved leg of the 280 turnouts. 

 

This photo shows what a complex junction would have looked like using 280 and also 140 turnouts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I ended up using one 280 at the lower right, chopping it down to fit.  Basically a little work with a razor saw and a file.  I've since soldered this up so it's a single piece of trackwork.  This photo shows a test fit for measuring how much to cut off.

 

 

[kvp]

I've checked and the R280 left and right would need cut and filed ballast pieces to work if it was built with a 15 degree curve and the parallel track to track distances would still not work. The R140 would also not work with 15 degrees, so both are 30 degrees and the R140 creates a 37 mm distance, while the R280 double of that. The R280 Y works at 15 degrees because both tracks curve away and create a 30 degrees separation. The first radius that would work without cutting and filing pieces would be around double of this and that's the R541 one. (which has a bit sharper part otherwise it would be R560) The idea is to completly avoid any filed ballast pieces so every track could connect to every other without permanent modifications.

[velotrain]

I've checked and the R280 left and right would need cut and filed ballast pieces to work if it was built with a 15 degree curve and the parallel track to track distances would still not work.

 

Are you saying that they could not be used (if modified) for a crossing at the Tomix standard 37mm spacing?  I'm fairly certain it would work.

 

What's wrong with a permanent modification - if you're certain of what you wish to accomplish?

[kvp]

They could be modded. However unlike Kato, Tomix turnouts never require cut or filed tracks, so they are easier to work with and allow more complex track arrangements just by connecting the pieces.

[velotrain]

Well - they require it if you want a turnout with a curved leg less sharp than 140, but shorter in overall length than the 541 ;-)

[kvp]

Are you aware that the length difference would be 37 mm between a the standard R541 and a modded R280 point? (a total of 66 mm with the matching curve) You will have to cut right at the plastic insulators and add enough straights to get the right track to track distances before adding the matching R280 reverse curve.

 

The only way to make an official turnout like this would be to make a variant that equals to an C280 and a S72.0 and that would only save 66 mm compared to the longer one, but would be outside the current Tomix system. (resulting in the following combined lengths: R140=140mm, R280=214mm, R541=280mm)

 

Btw. the R514 would be actually R560 if there were no straight parts before the point blades and around the frog. To get a turnout that could fit into the Tomix system without error would need a slightly less than R280 turnout (something like an R271), but that curve would still be too sharp for some of the mainline and shinkansen rolling stock and thus unusable on most layouts and would need at least two new pieces for a complete system. Imho it's something not really worth producing in mass by Tomix right now.

 

 

[AllScales]

When I started doing the maths of buying all the track work and importing it, then I decided to stick with the Peco track as this was pushing the cost of the layout well beyond what I had planned!

 

As I managed to work out how to do the wiring on Sunday, I can start, soon, to build boards for the stations! Next project: Servo controlled crossing gates... Are there Japanese models available? Or will I have to adapt some Peco ones (hey they are cheap!)?

[kvp]

There are great japanese automatic crossing gates (some even with sound), but you'll have to use the track system of their manufacturer to be able to integrate the automatic train sensors into the tracks. For Tomix, this means using Finetrack and a TCS system capable controller and for Kato Unitrack. There are also some cheap non motorized gates available from Tomytec (the diorama brand of Tomix), but it's a real pain to add servos and train detection, when you can buy it off the shelf.

 

and a home made one using the cheap Tomytec kit:

 

As have some experience with Peco tracks i think that adding underfloor turnout control and ballasting everything to be reliable is not easy. If you go with the Peco servo kits, then you'll spend much more than what Tomix or Kato tracks would cost. The biggest problem with easy operation and Peco points is adding all the isolators, feeders and turnout position following relays to get the same result as using a Tomix fully power routing turnout. (it's doable, just more work and costs about the same with all the extra circuits) The only big advantage of using Peco code 55 streamline tracks are the ballastability and the good look that comes with it. The Peco code 80 settrack both looks horrible and it unreliable as it has insulated frog turnouts, so it's not really usable, compared to both the Kato electrofrog ones and the Tomix split frog ones.

[velotrain]

There are great japanese automatic crossing gates (some even with sound), but you'll have to use the track system of their manufacturer to be able to integrate the automatic train sensors into the tracks. For Tomix, this means using Finetrack and a TCS system capable controller . . .

I'm wondering if this is really true? Granted you'll need to use the Tomix sensors at the crossing gate, and their TCS controller, but is there any real difference between these locations? As long as the electrical connections are made between Tomix and Peco at both ends, what is the reason it wouldn't work?

 

In terms of costs, are you considering the customs charges that the U.K. is well known for?

Edited March 13, 2017 by velotrain

[kvp]

I'm wondering if this is really true? Granted you'll need to use the Tomix sensors at the crossing gate, and their TCS controller, but is there any real difference between these locations? As long as the electrical connections are made between Tomix and Peco at both ends, what is the reason it wouldn't work?

In terms of costs, are you considering the customs charges that the U.K. is well known for?

The sensors have to be spaced further apart to give the gates enough time to close, so for a double track line, that would be about 12 transition points between the 4 sensor tracks and the 2 crossing tracks using peco tracks between them. You can make your own sensor tracks and the TCS system isn't really complex (it's essentially just a TTL bus), but that more or less defeats the purpose of using the off the shelf gate instead of rolling your own. (the home made variant above used the Tomix sensor plugs and track system, but added a home made control, servo and light system) I would say, that for Peco tracks, the easiest is to just make your own from the Tomytec kits and control it manually with a switch. That's also possible by using the Peco servo kit.

 

And yes, i added the customs charges, but calculated with the off the shelf Peco electrical and servo kits, that are actually very good and quite pricey. Gernally speaking i think you'll be at the same price point unless you roll your own electrical and control systems. The cheapest would be using mechanical rod/lever control for the turnouts and the gates and using the live frogs to route and cut power from sidings. The latter is the least reliable but cheapest way. I would go with at least switch polarized electrofrogs and at least one side cut power on the sidings (both sides and full power routing in case of opposite side frogs on a bypass track). Adding servos and relays to do it automatically would be the best. Of course this depends on your track layout, which i can't find atm.

[velotrain]

The sensors have to be spaced further apart to give the gates enough time to close, so for a double track line, that would be about 12 transition points between the 4 sensor tracks and the 2 crossing tracks using peco tracks between them.

I'm guessing that the plug-in type of sensor could be mounted directly to the Peco track - perhaps with some fitting, so you would only need a transition at the actual crossing.

[kvp]

It's hard enough to fit them to Tomix track, but if you could do it, many fremo N module building people would be really interested, including me.

 

Do you use code 55 or 80 tracks? What is your trackplan?

[velotrain]

I've only used Tomix track - with no problems at all, so was just pondering the possibility.

 

 

 

What are the functional differences between split frog and electrofrog?

 

Since both rails are isolated, reverse loops are easier - anything else?

[kvp]

An electrofrog is one solid metal frog that has to be polarised. This means the turnout is not cuttable as running over the frog will cause a short. Current Kato N, Peco N code 55 and Rokuhan Z scale turnouts and ancient (pre finetrack) Tomix N scale turnouts are of this type.

 

A split frog has two parts, each one always at the right polarity and has an isolated tip between these two halfs. This means running over the frog won't cause a short, regardless of the direction the blades are set. Modern Tomix Finetrack N and classic Maerklin Z scale turnouts are of this type. If the blades are also split (usually are) and spring loaded, then the turnout is cuttable without the danger of a short.

 

The third type is insulated frog, where the frog is a piece of plastic. This is easy and cheap to make but has no conductivity, so there could be power pickup issues. If paired with split powered and spring loaded blades, this also allows cuttable turnouts. Peco N code 80 turnouts are of this frog type, but still not cuttable, due to a way too strong spring. Some Minitrix N scale turnouts are also this type, with a soft enough spring to be cuttable.

 

Then there are the electrofrog, connected blade turnouts, that take polarity through the blade tips. This is the classic toy train type and will always cause a short when run into from the wrong direction. Some types even have single cast metal blades, like the Rokuhan Z scale short turnouts. These are simple to make, but a real pain to wire nicely.

 

Reversing loops are easy with fully power routing turnouts, which means for turnouts that isolate and power route both the frog side (inner) and the stock side (outer) rails. This has little to do with the frog type as both split and insulated frog type turnouts could support this feature (electrofrogs can't). Currently i only know about the Tomix N Finetrack turnouts that have this feature. Adding an extra pair of isolators to the outer rails of a split frog turnout and using an external bistable relay or mechanical switch to follow the turnout will give the same features that the Tomix ones have built in. (some turnout machines, like the Tortoise have extra contacts usable for this purpose)

 

Of course with the right electronics (or a 4 pole switch) it's easy to make any turnout able to support a reverse loop. If you have an autofrog circuit with turnout support, then you can use the momentary short caused by the electrofrog to automatically throw the turnout and make a reversing loop fully automatic. Adding wheel detectors (threadle sensors) and some logic allows the same with any type of turnout and without the smallest short as the turnouts are automatically thrown before the train.

 

ps: In short the possibilities are rather large, but the more simple the turnout you use, the more wiring and extra circuits are needed for the same result.

Edited March 14, 2017 by kvp