Bombardier makes "better" trains than Japanese makers

[velotrain]

A bunch of years back I visited the Bombardier snowmobile museum in Valcourt, Quebec, when I was scouting out the Estrie region (AKA Eastern Townships) for a possible bike tour.  I hadn't been interested in snowmobiles - and still aren't, but it was a very well organized small museum and kept me involved for some time in the history of their products. 

 

I don't know if they are officially considered the originators of snowmobiles, or it's the kind of thing that saw concurrent, parallel development in multiple locations, but they were certainly in the game early.  I recall their first experiment used a propeller in the rear, just as some experimental trains - it didn't work out for any of them.

[cteno4]

Zeppelin car worked well, had the speed record for a long time there, but tended to suck everything along the tracks into the prop! Don't stand on the platform when the express comes thru!

 

Jeff

[velotrain]

Edited February 28, 2017 by cteno4
Fixed YouTube embed

[scotspensioner]

This is truly laughable.Hitachi are importing trains in kit form to Newton Aycliffe to be supplied to EastCoast and Great Western on contracts set up by the Department of Transport which is Chris Graylings Department!!

Scotrail are also getting commuter trains from Hitachi on a contract set up by Abellio the Dutch Government operator

Typical Ignorant British Conservative brainless politician

Motto:- The bigger anidiot you are the further up the tree you'll go!

[marknewton]

No specifics why they are better are given...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/26/chris-grayling-tells-japan-our-trains-are-better-than-yours

Specifically, Grayling is a bombastic wanker.

 

Mark.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Really, is that what this thread is going to deteriorate into? Grayling certainly has his faults, and he most definitely has a track-record (not just as transport minister, but also previous roles in the Home Office; Justice Minister). How he phrased it was out of order (assuming the Guardian (not a friend of the current Government) have reported this correctly).

 

Politicians of all persuasions (and nationalities) can be bombastic, and make ill-judged statements - as can we all every now and then.

 

The bottom line is Bombardier are unlikely to make any inroads into the Japanese rail market; irrespective of Chris Grayling's interventions.

[marknewton]

Claude, please don't think I'm singling Grayling out because he's English or a Tory. I'm singling him out because he's repeatedly demonstrated his utter inability to manage his ministerial portfolios. For the record, I regard politicians of all persuasions and nationalities as bombastic wankers.

 

All the best,

 

Mark.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

No worries. I have seen threads on other forums spiral out of control in situations such as this.

[cteno4]

That's enough guys.

 

Please let's keep the politics out, that's one of the forum guidelines as Claude is right they tend to make threads burst into flames quickly.

 

Thanks

 

Jeff

Edited March 1, 2017 by cteno4

[Socimi]

Based on recent comments here which make Bombardier look good by comparison, one wonders if Hitachi can successfully shape [Ansaldobreda] them up.

 

Beside revising ( and correcting ) older AnsaldoBreda projects (such as the TSR suburban train and the Vivalto coaches), Hitachi isn't exactly doing well here,

for example the "Leonardo" series 

http://italy.hitachirail.com/medialibrary/_genpagemainimage/2015/10/27/88fac318/leonardo_mainR2.jpg

Has the reputation of being the Ugliest, most unconfortable, most unreliable train in the whole Milan Metro roster, still ATM has brought a lot of them.

 

The design of the new "Caravaggio" series is also being questioned all over railfan forums and actual railway companies, the issues being found are the particular design of the front wich obstructs the driver's wiew range, the disposition of cab controls (that will shred years of unificated cab designs, also lacking an AFB lever), the single leaf (albeit large) doors, and the overall seating disposition. Not to mention the real necessity of such a revolutionary desing (another, maybe modified, batch of TSRs wasn't good enought?) and eventual technical problems.

[westfalen]

It depends where they make them.  Queensland Rail's new NGR (New Generation Rollingstock) trains are being built by Bombardier in India and over a year after the first was delivered the first two are only now getting out onto the network at night on test runs.  There are thirteen trains sitting at the specially built maintainence centre, they are turning up about two/month and just being parked.  There should be fourteen but No.11 had to donate parts to one of the others and is apparently still in India.  I have talked to one of the guys involved in the testing and asked when we might see them in service, his verbatim answer was "Ha Ha Ha Ha!"

As an update to this the transport minister announced today that no more deliveries will be accepted until Bombardier sort out the problems.

[Wonderbolt]

Bombardier stuff always strikes me as tat.

Secondly why the UK government seems to love them so much I don't know they arnt actually a UK company, if we want to export trains we should encourage the creation of a wholly UK owned train manufacturer or encourage a UK company to buy out a European or Japanese producer.

That's unlikely though a UK businesses and to government seem not to like heavy industry and tend to favour get rich quick service industries.

[velotrain]

I don't understand - if so many countries are having bad experiences with Bombardier, why are they still getting new orders (or are they?)

 

Are all of the remaining competent train manufacturers in the world really in Japan?

 

Or, is the problem with incompetent (and/or corrupt) transport ministries?

 

I don't follow global rail, so perhaps it's just that only the failures are reported here, and we don't hear of the success stories?

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Part of the issue was linked to the Thameslink upgrade. Bombardier put in a bid, but the eventual order for the class 700s went to Siemens; which caused all manner of political ructions and dire threats over the future of the Derby plant. It may be telling that with their resident class 377/5 fleet, Thameslink already had experience of Bombardier's handiwork, so at least it would make sense from an ease of maintenance point of view to order the new fleet from them; but they did not go this way.

 

Whilst Hitachi have won a number of bids in the UK market, these are mainly being built at their new factory in the North East of England. Fits the political desire for stuff (or at least aspects of it) to be assembled in the UK; irrespective of where their parent company is from. See Honda at Swindon or Nissan in Sunderland for a prime example of this...

[kvp]

I tell one success story. The hungarian railway has purchased 10 Bombardier Talents and 10 Stadler Flirts. Both are 160km/h 4 car low floor commuter types. The Talents had a few bugs, that resulted in excessive brake and suspension wear and had to be limited to 120 km/h. The Flirts didn't have these problems. Also the Flirts are mostly made in Hungary (including body, brake system, control systems, etc.).

 

MAV being a company which prefers standard stock ordered more than 100 sets. These are the red/white flirts. Then ordered a second batch. And a bit later a 3rd (blue/white ones) and another company (GySEv) took the optional part (green/yellow ones). The sets are maintained at the factory by the manufacturer. It's possible to build trains of up to 16 cars in 4 car steps.

 

The low floor technology is ancient, first used on the partially hungarian supplied London underground cars, with a high floor cab motor section on each end with above floor equipment, a power bogie below and low floor passenger sections in the middle resting on jackobs trailer bogies. (Bo-2-2-2-Bo) One middle section is a half baggage area with fold down seats for bicycles, wheelchairs, strollers and a disabled accessible toilet. The sets are mostly used in 4, 8 and 12 car configurations in almost every rule (local, sbahn, rapid and even on some lake Balaton south shore limited expresses) A 4th order is in progress...

 

(the previous large batch standard types were the bhv series push-pull rakes built from 1954 till the 80ies and even many of the 1st batch cars are still running)

[Wonderbolt]

Bombardier sometimes act as if its their divine right to get all UK contracts as they have the Derby plant (and pretend to be a UK company) and sulk when they don't win bids.

The UK rail industry is weird as the government decides what stock is allowed and not, Safety regulations like Crash worthiness and fire resistance are tough (much more so than Japan I think) plus the length of units(units longer than 5 cars are rarely allowed). So companies rarely get the units they want and end up with units that are to short in length and uncomfortable for passengers (Voyagers and Class 185s being examples).

[Khaul]

I tell one success story. The hungarian railway has purchased 10 Bombardier Talents and 10 Stadler Flirts. Both are 160km/h 4 car low floor commuter types. The Talents had a few bugs, that resulted in excessive brake and suspension wear and had to be limited to 120 km/h. The Flirts didn't have these problems. Also the Flirts are mostly made in Hungary (including body, brake system, control systems, etc.).

 

MAV being a company which prefers standard stock ordered more than 100 sets. These are the red/white flirts. Then ordered a second batch. And a bit later a 3rd (blue/white ones) and another company (GySEv) took the optional part (green/yellow ones). The sets are maintained at the factory by the manufacturer. It's possible to build trains of up to 16 cars in 4 car steps.

 

The low floor technology is ancient, first used on the partially hungarian supplied London underground cars, with a high floor cab motor section on each end with above floor equipment, a power bogie below and low floor passenger sections in the middle resting on jackobs trailer bogies. (Bo-2-2-2-Bo) One middle section is a half baggage area with fold down seats for bicycles, wheelchairs, strollers and a disabled accessible toilet. The sets are mostly used in 4, 8 and 12 car configurations in almost every rule (local, sbahn, rapid and even on some lake Balaton south shore limited expresses) A 4th order is in progress...

 

(the previous large batch standard types were the bhv series push-pull rakes built from 1954 till the 80ies and even many of the 1st batch cars are still running)

 

Interesting. I think I traveled in the Stadler Flirts from Székesfehérvár to Déli and back in January. I am not enamored with the low floor rolling stock, but I saw how much better service MAV now offers compared to how it was 15 years ago. The travel back was spoiled by a ratting disable access ramp. Why do they need those in low floor trains?

[westfalen]

All seven previous classes of electric MUs for Queensland Rail since 1979 had been built by local builder Downer Rail, who as Walkers Ltd has been in the business since 1873 and had been building motive power for QR and others since steam days.  The previous government, run by a premier who had a career in the army and so had a disposition towards giving orders and having them carried out rather than listening to advice from those under him, decided it would be cheaper to have the trains made by Bombardier in India.

[railsquid]

"Bombardier" does have a nice military ring to it...

[kvp]

Interesting. I think I traveled in the Stadler Flirts from Székesfehérvár to Déli and back in January. I am not enamored with the low floor rolling stock, but I saw how much better service MAV now offers compared to how it was 15 years ago. The travel back was spoiled by a ratting disable access ramp. Why do they need those in low floor trains?

Actually the ancient wooden interior red plush seat first class cars were much more comfortable, even if you had to climb some really steep steps to get on board and my favourite car type is the original, unrebuilt bhv series, that looks and feels very much like ancient JNR stock with 2x2 bay seating. But as an sbahn/commuter type, the Flirts are pretty good and reliable.

 

The access ramps are only there for railhead level platforms. Essentially some gravel or concrete filling between the rails. This also allows boarding and alighting at any road crossing if there is a service disruption. The only problem with Flirts is that being a commuter type, they are not really suited for long distance service, but often used as such due to being capable of a top speed of 160 km/h with rapid acceleration from a station stop.

[bill937ca]

Amid legal battle with Bombardier, Metrolinx may switch LRV manufacturers

OLIVER MOORE - URBAN TRANSPORTATION REPORTER

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/metrolinx-says-bombardiers-persistent-delays-threaten-rail-projects/article34184291/

 

Metrolinx is actively talking to another manufacturer as it pushes for a quick resolution to its legal showdown with Bombardier over a $770-million light rail vehicle order for Toronto.

The regional transit agency alleges in a 2,000-page court filing that Bombardier’s delays have put the multibillion-dollar Eglinton Crosstown LRT project at risk. And it argues that the company is trying to string out the legal process long enough that Metrolinx won’t be able to go to another supplier in time, even if it wins in court.

The blistering series of allegations, which have not been tested in court, raise questions about whether the two entities can continue to work productively together.

“Bombardier’s persistent inability to deliver on its contractual obligations, as set out in Metrolinx’s affidavits, has jeopardized Metrolinx’s ability to deliver on its public mandate to improve transit for Toronto,” the transit agency said in a statement to media accompanying its legal filing.

One affidavit takes direct aim at the manufacturer’s claim that its reputation would be at risk if it lost the contract. “Bombardier’s record of failure to perform its obligations on public infrastructure projects around the globe is well-known and publicized,” alleges Metrolinx executive Mark Ciavarro.

Edited March 3, 2017 by bill937ca

[Khaul]

Actually the ancient wooden interior red plush seat first class cars were much more comfortable, even if you had to climb some really steep steps to get on board and my favourite car type is the original, unrebuilt bhv series, that looks and feels very much like ancient JNR stock with 2x2 bay seating. But as an sbahn/commuter type, the Flirts are pretty good and reliable.

 

The access ramps are only there for railhead level platforms. Essentially some gravel or concrete filling between the rails. This also allows boarding and alighting at any road crossing if there is a service disruption. The only problem with Flirts is that being a commuter type, they are not really suited for long distance service, but often used as such due to being capable of a top speed of 160 km/h with rapid acceleration from a station stop.

 

Agree, and yes, that's a bit like Siemens Desiro DMUs doing intercity services in Romania.

[Nick_Burman]

Actually the ancient wooden interior red plush seat first class cars were much more comfortable, even if you had to climb some really steep steps to get on board and my favourite car type is the original, unrebuilt bhv series, that looks and feels very much like ancient JNR stock with 2x2 bay seating. But as an sbahn/commuter type, the Flirts are pretty good and reliable.

 

The access ramps are only there for railhead level platforms. Essentially some gravel or concrete filling between the rails. This also allows boarding and alighting at any road crossing if there is a service disruption. The only problem with Flirts is that being a commuter type, they are not really suited for long distance service, but often used as such due to being capable of a top speed of 160 km/h with rapid acceleration from a station stop.

 

In my neck of the woods Trenitalia uses FLIRTs bought and paid for by Region Veneto on Padova - Bassano del Grappa and Monselice - Legnago - (Verona) local trains. Although used on a local line, these trains have toilets. These are four section trains; sometimes TI uses two coupled together on Bassano locals on peak hour runs. Sistemi Territoriali (the former Società Veneta line from Mestre to Adria, now Ferrovia Adria - Mestre) replaced their Aln668 railcars with diesel FLIRTs and even strung OHW on a short section of its line as far as Mira-Buse station to permit electric FLIRTs to use the line on Mira - Venezia Santa Lucia locals. Alas these were a complete flop and the wire is now unused... closer to me the Ferrovia Udine - Cividale uses a pair of 2-unit diesel FLIRTs turn and turn about with their remaining Aln668s. If plans to reopen the Pedemontana Friulana line (Sacile - Maniago - Gemona) for general passenger use come through in 2018, FUC (which most likely will take over the line from TI) will need more rolling stock to operate the section. This will be either more FLIRTs or (as I think) probably PESA railcars, as these have been quite successful with Italian regional railways...if only for their low cost.

 

Cheers NB