Bombardier makes "better" trains than Japanese makers

[bikkuri bahn]

Transport secretary Chris Grayling is lobbying Japan, the country that pioneered modern high-speed trains, to buy rolling stock from Derby as part of the government’s post-Brexit trade push.

In a counter-intuitive move, Grayling has urged Japanese ministers to purchase trains from the UK. Japan’s bullet trains are among the best in the world, but Grayling believes slower suburban rolling stock is better manufactured in Britain.

 

No specifics why they are better are given...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/26/chris-grayling-tells-japan-our-trains-are-better-than-yours

[bill937ca]

Bombardier never get it done on time.  The Toronto contracts border on sole-source sweetheart deals.

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/bombardier-could-miss-more-deadlines-for-streetcar-delivery-ttc-says-1.3897453

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/metrolinx-files-notice-to-terminate-bombardier-contract-worth-over-700m-1.3835608

 

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/toronto/bombardier-court-injunction-1.3976771

[bikkuri bahn]

Bombardier products seem to have a middling reputation at best if consensus on UK railway enthusiast forums is to be counted.

[Suica]

Seems more like big words to stay in the news and keep European rail companies from taking a look at what Japan has to offer.

A lot has happened in just a few years. The UK and Ireland have Japanese made rolling stock. Germany is developing new locos with Toshiba. Hitachi bought AnsaldoBreda.

[cteno4]

Thump thump thump goes the chest...

 

Jeff

[velotrain]

 Hitachi bought AnsaldoBreda.

 

Based on recent comments here which make Bombardier look good by comparison, one wonders if Hitachi can successfully shape them up.

[railsquid]

Hahaha, gotta love that British sense of humour.

 

[railsquid]

A Department for Transport source added:“Every government department has been tasked by [prime minister] Theresa May with broadening our exports. What Chris was saying to the Japanese was, ‘Yes, your train engines are great, but actually your suburban trains are inferior to what’s produced by Bombardier’. It’s not only our rolling stock.

 

Ah, I see what happened, they took the train in from Haneda Airport and ended up on one of Keisei's somewhat older trains...

 

They should also take a while to reflect that while Japan's railway museums are home to many British-produced steam locomotives, the UK (AFAIK) doesn't have any UK-owned train manufacturing capability any more, and why that has happened...

[ToniBabelony]

I have a feeling Japanese manufacturers will see this as a challenge. A challenge they're willing to take on.

[velotrain]

I would have thought they'd see it as a foolish remark to be ignored - like many of mine ;-)

[medusa]

Hm, I read when it came to the follow-up of the ICE-3 (which is now the Velaro), the Japanese companies took into account for a short time an offer of the Shinkansen 700. They also sold that to Tawain successfully.

In the end they withdrew their offer (if it came so far) since they didn't want all the bureaucracy of certification and tests and modification etc. required by the German railway authority.

 

I'd liked a 700-kei running here instead of the Velaros... :(

 

So, let's see if European contries in the end buy railway stock rom Japan...

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Well, you cannot blame the Transport Minister from trying to encourage other countries to order trains built in the UK (albeit, not by a UK-owned company). After all, if I was Japanese, or French, or German, or American, I would expect the same from my transport minister; so in a way it is a bit of a non-story (British Government Minister tries to encourage other countries to buy British-made products; the nerve of the man!). I am not entirely sure why this is reported as counter-intuitive either. He is not saying to the Japanese, 'buy our high-speed trains' (we are already doing that ourselves from Japan, although the IEP are probably not high-speed as the Japanese would understand it), he is pushing the new Bombardier Aventra, which is a more local/commuter based.

 

Will he succeed? Most likely not, but it would be a real coup to manage to enter today's railway market in Japan. That said, I have daily first-hand experience with Bombardier products, and whilst they are not bad as a train, they are let down by a poor ride-quality. They need to get that sorted out before they start trying to hawk their wares to other railway companies.

[railsquid]

Well, you cannot blame the Transport Minister from trying to encourage other countries to order trains built in the UK (albeit, not by a UK-owned company). After all, if I was Japanese, or French, or German, or American, I would expect the same from my transport minister; so in a way it is a bit of a non-story (British Government Minister tries to encourage other countries to buy British-made products; the nerve of the man!). I am not entirely sure why this is reported as counter-intuitive either. He is not saying to the Japanese, 'buy our high-speed trains' (we are already doing that ourselves from Japan, although the IEP are probably not high-speed as the Japanese would understand it), he is pushing the new Bombardier Aventra, which is a more local/commuter based.

 

In itself it's not an unreasonable thing to do, but I'd assume anyone competent would take a closer look at the target market rather than coming up with laughable generalisations ("your commuter train products are inferior to ours").

[HantuBlauLOL]

someone went mad after losing a HSR bid to Hitachi?

[Jace]

Bombardier seems to have lost their way, at least in North America; 5 major projects here, all of them more than 18 months late. One of them, Metrolinx of Toronto, has put Bombardier in default. More concerning is that the delays are due to fundamental manufacturing and design issues, things that should be part of their expertise. They've recently announced a strategic partnership with CRRC for certain projects which I suspect will be used mainly for the highly price sensitive US market. Problem is, they'll end up farming out a lot of the engineering to CRRC to keep their costs down, ending up as not more much more than a manufacturing shop, working on their existing designs for as long as they can. Unless things are much better in Europe, I wouldn't be too worried in Japan about Bombardier.

[Suica]

Hm, I read when it came to the follow-up of the ICE-3 (which is now the Velaro), the Japanese companies took into account for a short time an offer of the Shinkansen 700. They also sold that to Tawain successfully.

In the end they withdrew their offer (if it came so far) since they didn't want all the bureaucracy of certification and tests and modification etc. required by the German railway authority.

 

I'd liked a 700-kei running here instead of the Velaros... :(

 

So, let's see if European contries in the end buy railway stock rom Japan...

 

In 2011/12 Hitachi also joined the bidding process to supply new trains for the Hamburg S-Bahn but withdrew their bid shortly after. But all that's quite a few years back. I guess Japan wasn't too confident in the European market back then. But now that they actually gained foothold, I think things would look different if there was an ongoing bid right now. Just look at the DBs Toshiba Hybrid loco project.

[kvp]

I guess one of the main advantages of Bombardier is that they have expertise in low floor emu design, even if most their units are very badly engineered. As soon as Japan decides to go for low floor commuter units that are a must for low platforms, they could have a market in Japan. Unless someome who is actually competent in the field, like Siemens or Stadler gets there first. In reality, the only advantages for european companies were the Siemens traction electronics and expertise in ETCS integration. Bombardier also makes loco hauled push-pull commuter rakes, something that has never really caught on in Japan.

 

ps: The Bombardier made commuter emu-s (talent-s) sold to Austria and Hungary are really bad, including one suspension design issue, that causes the bogie mounted disk brakes to repeatadly hit the axle mounted brake pads at higher speeds, causing excessive wear and rather strong sideways kicks. The correct solution is to mount the brake arms on the axle bearing holder assembly, so it moves with the axles and not with the secondary suspension. And that is just one problem...

[Suica]

To strike a blow for Bombardier for a change, I gotta admit that I really like our Flexity Berlin low-floor trams and they seem to be reasonably reliable, with deliveries being on-time as well. Way better than those ADtranz ones we received in the 90s (which can also be found in Japan).

[velotrain]

Well, you cannot blame the Transport Minister from trying to encourage other countries to order trains built in the UK (albeit, not by a UK-owned company).

 

Encourage is one thing, but making an arrogant, ignorant and insulting comment such as "our Bombardier trains from Derby are better" is something else again.  Particularly given the widely reported issues with Bombardier products - including your own comment regarding ride quality.

 

Did Greyling offer any facts to support his spurious claim?

[kvp]

 

 

So, let's see if European contries in the end buy railway stock rom Japan...

One more remark for this: The same problem i mentioned for Bombardier is there. Japan uses high platforms almost exclusively, so most companies could only offer high platform stock. This means a market of the UK and some high platform continental commuter systems, mostly metros. The rest of Europe uses relatively low platforms and low floor rolling stock. This is something japanense companies don't have a lot of knowledge. (also known as the art of stuffing away the wheels and other components so the doors and the floor could be lowered below the tops of the bogies) For conventional high floor commuter and high speed stock, the best systems are actually japanese. For low floor, the various european companies are trying to beat each other with only a few sales outside of Europe. Siemens also has a good locomotive business, something Japan doesn't really need anymore for passanger operations. The markets have completly diverged, with Japan and the UK in one group, the rest of the EU in another, the US getting whatever is available (even if it's korean, japanese or european) and China buying one from everything and building a 100 copies overnight. The rest of the world is apparently a smaller market than a single japanese city. I would be watching for what happens first: A japanese or chinese company buying Bombardier or Bombardier selling commuter trains in Japan?

[medusa]

Guess what I bet... :)

[velotrain]

Wouldn't shipping trains from the U.K. to Japan be like shipping coal to Newcastle?

[railsquid]

Indeed, unless you zip back in time to the Meiji era.

 

I suspect anyone wanting to sell trains to Japan would end up creating effectively an entirely new product suited to Japan's conditions.

 

For foreign imports I suspect the potential would be in various LRT projects, which like KVP says require specific low-floor techniques where Japan might not have an advantage (but then again those probably aren't being built in Derby).

[westfalen]

It depends where they make them.  Queensland Rail's new NGR (New Generation Rollingstock) trains are being built by Bombardier in India and over a year after the first was delivered the first two are only now getting out onto the network at night on test runs.  There are thirteen trains sitting at the specially built maintainence centre, they are turning up about two/month and just being parked.  There should be fourteen but No.11 had to donate parts to one of the others and is apparently still in India.  I have talked to one of the guys involved in the testing and asked when we might see them in service, his verbatim answer was "Ha Ha Ha Ha!"

[bikkuri bahn]

As westy says, Bombardier has factories all over the world, a legacy of it starting out as a maker of snowmobiles who over the years acquired companies in other fields, including aerospace and railroad equipment.  I reckon the focus here is on Bombardier's Derby Factory, which has been the epicenter of nationalist feelings, being the former BREL facility. Though the irony of Bombardier's rolling stock HQ being in Berlin always is there, basically meaning there is no "truly" English rolling stock builder anymore.