Chicago L style elevated train structure

[bill937ca]

Here is an interesting idea from the blog of a Japanese modeler. Its a Chicago L created from the framework of several Kato 23-063 Double Wide Catenary Sets. To this he has added some styrene and Greenmax 2125 Third Rail. In Google Chrome his blog can be translate by right clicking. The buildings in the photos (from his web site) are typical Japanese urban structures from Kato or Greenmax. The train is a Kato1/150 10-1249 Tokyo Metro Subway 02 Marunouchi Line subway train.

 

http://layout.client.jp/log18.html

 

[cteno4]

It's a great hack of those catenary poles!

 

Thanks bill

 

Jeff

[velotrain]

But by being non-continuous, they just end up looking like Showa era Kato viaduct support boxes.  It looks rather "naked" as is, and doesn't convey the substance of an elevated line to me - among other things the track simply isn't realistically supported.

 

Admittedly there are few choices in N scale, but I wish he had used longitudinal girders under the ties, and additional crosspieces to connect the boxes into a continuous structure, or added plate truss sections to mount the tracks on - as Micro Engineering does on their City Viaduct (HO scale only). 

 

Here is a sample photo of it used for an urban scene.

 

http://www.gothamcitysub.com/pics/VS2.jpg

 

For anyone who likes this scene, here is a video of the layout:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A2h3jZhxiA#t=32

 

However, there is another - albeit more expensive, option for much closer to proto elevated subway lines.

 

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/215976.aspx?sortorder=desc

 

A third of the way down - I love the shots taken from below (you can click to enlarge at photobucket).

The photos at this link are of the HO scale products, built up as a custom diorama.

 

The manufacturer is Imagine That Laser Art, and I see they have added some N scale products since my last visit.

 

http://itlascalemodels.com/

Edited February 27, 2017 by velotrain

[nah00]

But by being non-continuous, they just end up looking like Showa era Kato viaduct support boxes.  It looks rather "naked" as is, and doesn't convey the substance of an elevated line to me - among other things the track simply isn't realistically supported.

 

Admittedly there are few choices in N scale, but I wish he had used longitudinal girders under the ties, and additional crosspieces to connect the boxes into a continuous structure, or added plate truss sections to mount the tracks on - as Micro Engineering does on their City Viaduct (HO scale only). 

 

 

That was my first thought too. It lacks the 'heft' that structures of these type have. It's still a nice looking piece of work but it could be a fantastic piece of work with some bulking up between the supports with plate girders.

[kvp]

The real elevated structures had the longitudinal cross pieces positioned under the tracks. Adding classic narrow box girder bridges between and inside the lattice grid support towers would work. Also just moving the longitudinal girders a bit inwards or moving the tracks outwards above them and creating a continous structure would work. Needs about one third more poles and a bit more cutting and gluing but that's it.

[EF57]

quinntopia's video update for 2017 shows an imho superb-looking el built using kato viaduct piers and strip styrene.

[velotrain]

quinntopia's video update for 2017 shows an imho superb-looking el built using kato viaduct piers and strip styrene.

 

. . . um . . . it would help greatly if you provided a link ??

[kvp]

It think it's this one:

 

It's nice, but imho those long unsupported curved girders are really not too prototypical.

[enodenlover]

Sorry to say it, but that elevated structure doesn't look very prototypical and it certainly doesn't look workable. Those long stretches without support piers, especially on curves, are an invitation to possible disaster. I've ridden on old time el structures in NYC and Philadelphia as well as here in Chicago and I've never seen anything that looks like that model. 

[kvp]

Yes, the support girders are always straight and much shorter, very much like on the Kato straight and curved girder bridges.

[velotrain]

Sorry to say it, but that elevated structure doesn't look very prototypical and it certainly doesn't look workable. Those long stretches without support piers, especially on curves, are an invitation to possible disaster.

 

Totally agree - marginally heftier but as unbelievable as the first example in the thread.  Not so much an invitation to possible disaster, as a guarantee of absolute disaster.  Why would anyone think you can just throw some flextrack down on top of Kato piers and you have instant overhead superstructure?

 

Why don't these guys look at photos of actual Japanese prototypes and try to emulate them? 

Granted - it would take more materials and effort, but OTOH could actually be credible.

[cteno4]

Hey guys it's his layout. Quintopia has done some spectacular modeling and this suits his tastes, not built to suit yours.

 

Not everyone is concerned with being prototypical or has the time and such to make things perfect. Quintopia like to have his own world if you read his blog and that's cool it's HIS Layout.

 

He has been a very gracious poster in JNS in the past, doubt he will return with this sort of banter.

 

You might think first of how you might feel if folks made comments like this about your own work before bashing others'.

 

Jeff

[velotrain]

Jeff - there's also the point of view that critical comments are the only way we ever discover what could be done better, and we are challenged to improve aspects of our modeling.

 

I don't insist on prototypical or perfect, but do prefer believable - if not somewhat realistic.

 

In all the years that JRM has exhibited the layout, there's never been a time when a viewer made a negative comment, or suggested something to one of you, and perhaps after group discussion you realized that something could in fact be improved?

 

I suspect that like many of us, I generally know what I do well - in all endeavors, and it's only through criticism that I learn what can be improved.  I tend to see criticism as an opportunity, and not as something negative.  I'll accept it when I agree with it, and discuss it when I don't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[EF57]

i'm sure you guys are all right about that engineering stuff, but i admire the quinntopia high line on purely aesthetic grounds. Nothing like any prototype--no question. But we then ask, how does it LOOK? like a steam- and cyberpunk fantasy, with that monochrome finsh and spidery see-through-laciness. noir, like jules verne comes to gotham city. precisely the lack of straight girders on the curves--implausible, but beautiful. also that s-curve breaking up the front straight is pure elevated aesthetic, built simply to look good (and of course the treins look great going over it). i guess it all depends on how much intermixture of fantasy we want to allow on our layouts. i myself would run rapi:ts on it.

Edited March 17, 2017 by EF57

[velotrain]

I like the S-curve and would love to see a rapi:t on it, but only wish he had added a support in the middle of those 90 degree sections of curved track.

 

Even steampunk fantasy needs a modicum of credibility to be effective - as kvp would say, IMHO.

 

 

[medusa]

Exactly that's what I meant when I stated about my Nekomori layout, "I have to convince myself."

[velotrain]

I've seen a few very nicely lighted scenes, where it doesn't look like the buildings are on fire, but I'm not interested in lights as I'd rather supply that aspect myself via imagination.

 

Very often you'll read that figures add life to a model railroad, but I remember a published interview with one well-known modeler who didn't use figures, saying something like when you do it is very quickly obvious that they are static. The train is moving, but through a landscape that is frozen in time.

[kvp]

A good trick to static scenery is to depict static scenes. Like people standing, sitting or just generally waiting around. Cars could be parked or stuck at a glued down barrier. On the other hand moving vehicles could really move. Imho this would give the impression of a quiet day without looking too static. Visible people are not frozen, just looking around like the viewer. This also allows station and shop staff or even workers taking a break.

[cteno4]

Always an issue of one thing moves and the rest does not. If you want to be a purist then you have to just go to doing dioramas.

 

Having no figures then can make it look like a ghost town as well and run afoul of the mind's eye. Then at about cars on the road... For most folks the addition of static figures and vehicles if they are done well to show cool scene stores will work well with the minds eye as it sees the story and fills in the action form similar memories. Same issue comes up with animating bits of a layout as it is another point of moving vs non moving that can go either way. Some folks are really creeped out with anything but the trains moving, somehow it does a zombie apocalypse number on their brains... sometimes the delight of an animation or static figure scene entertains so much it forces aside the static vs moving issue. But not everyone's minds eye will behave the same, so to each to his own for their layout. Some model for other viewers mind's eye and others for just their own, it's their layout and their choice. Personally I try to go for the bits that seem the most universal and also please me, but I realize it won't work for everyone.

 

Lighting is really tough to get just right as it does not scale well. You have to mask a lot, put in a lot of lights toned way down in a building and fiddle to get it to feel just right to match reality. We also usually don't view scenes and building in real life at the distances and perspective we look at layouts and this can cause some issues but it can also help as it can force the minds eye to accept it as it doesn't have a lot of competing reference memories. But again many times just the novelty of the brightly lit up set can really please many viewers so even if not a perfect representation they are so entertained they suspend the realism filter and therefore work well for them.

 

This also happens a lot with the moving bus system. You get the static vs moving conflict in urban scenes where there should be a lot of vehicles moving not just the bus. But again the entertainment value can override this for many. Scenes can be set as well to help like bus express lane in an urban layout or a more sleepy rural or suburban scenes where not lots of vehicles out and about on small roads and have the bus disappear for a bit so it's popping in and out helps keep the entertainment fresh. Again it's pretty personal and up to the layout creator. It's always some tradeoffs with this stuff, there is no perfect solution just what works best for what the layout creator wants to do.

 

Jeff

[velotrain]

Jeff - Here's a link to photos of the North Shore MRC, which I think has some of the best lighting that I've ever seen. In particular, the Appalachian town of Stuart has many highly detailed and carefully illuminated interiors.

 

I've been fortunate enough to operate there several times.

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/groups/nsmrc/pool/

[cteno4]

Nice! HO is much easier to light than N! The smaller you go the harder light is to work with. But for many folks just it lighting up can be such a big value it doesn't have to be totally realistic to give them a lot of enjoyment. My only big push with lighting is think about adding pots where ever you can so you can tune any leds to what works best and not just full blast. It's something that can easily make a big difference in the effect and make the lighting even better. But again if it make the person happy just having it full blast that's cool it's their layout!

 

I love model lighting, but to be realistic it's a lot of work. I got hooked on it when I was young and doing a gob of 3/4" scale exhibit models for the Monterey bay aquarium. We did photo shoots now and a few times we got a really great product and model stage (i.e. Movie model special effects) lighting designer in that was just amazing in what they would do to light things just right. But the it was wild to look at the lighting with the eye and it looked bad or like nothing special, but then look thru the lens and wow! Pop! It showed me that you can't make things look right on model situations in every way, it's tradeoffs on what you want to do with it.

 

Just the room lighting of the layout can be a simple thing to make the layout pop a lot. It's not a simple thing though and needs a lot of experimentation and fiddling to get it to where it's what you like. Little bit of extra, careful lighting can also make a huge improvment in photography of the layout!

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

[kvp]

One more idea for lighting: If you plan to use your layout at different places (like shows), adding a central dimmer (preferably pwm) is a good thing as you can adjust the general light level to the local conditions without having to go through each potmeter individually.

[cteno4]

It really needs both. If you want realistic lighting you need to tune them individually, but like you say if in different locations you need different overall brightness. Most show are done in daylight though. Hard to get them to turn the lights out in the show rooms!

 

This brights up daylight lighting, most all buildings have a lot of lights on during the day and this adds to the look of the building. But in my experience in order to get that effect in models it need a brighter daylight lighting than night time lighting to be noticeable. This is where a global dimmer can help.

 

Jeff

[velotrain]

This brights up daylight lighting, most all buildings have a lot of lights on during the day and this adds to the look of the building.

That varies greatly. Some rooms are better than others, and even rooms that are generally good will often have dark corners. The variation in show lighting is exactly why some layouts always take their own lights with them, so they're not dependent on ambient lighting. The same is true for vendors at shows.

[cteno4]

I was referring to the internal lights on in buildings during the day. It changes the look of windows and what you see of interiors in daylight some. Again something that does not scale perfectly and needs tinkering to work.

 

Yes lighting varies a lot with venues with both brightness and color. Always messing with white balance at shows due to the various lighting sources.

 

It's tough to bring your own lights as it's a lot of crap to bring along, hard to make look decent and not really distract the eye, needs a lot of wiring that can run afoul of some fire inspectors (limit of plug extensions under regs), and until the advent of leds it could draw a lot of amps. We have looked at it several times but has just not worked out. Might rethink with the new layout and using leds.

 

Jeff