Track noise reduction?

[gavino200]

I'm wondering if it's possible to make my layout more quiet. My construction is plywood covered with one inch foamboard. The unitrack sits directly on the foamboard. It's only glued in a few places. With two trains running it's very loud.

 

I've been reading on a few sites. Lot's of people mention, cork, woodland scenics  trackbed, caulk, various layed setups, homasote, Homabed, etc. 

 

There doesn't seem to be a lot of consensus as to what works?Do any of these methods work well with Kato Unitrack? Does anyone here have any advise? How quiet can you make a layout anyway? Should I just accept that it's a noisy hobby and move on?

Edited February 20, 2017 by gavino200

[cteno4]

Gavin,

 

Yep this is as controversial as track cleaning methods!

 

There was one chap way back that actually did a 6' section of track with like 4 different sub bases to try to get some real data on noise reduction. I've had very good luck in the past with cork road bead. Homosote can be a very messy material to work with but is sworn by many as well. The ws foam roadbed could also help under unitrak.

 

Going directly to foam can cause some resonance, so having something between that and the track will help deaden the noise. I thin the small hollow space under unitrak can also create a little resonance chamber so something deading under the unitrak will help deaden it.

 

I would suggest maybe getting some of these and doing some experiments on your setup and see what works for you.

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

[velotrain]

I did some searching a while back and found comments that it matters how you attach the foam.  It was suggested that white glue, etc. created a non-flexible bond and increased the sound.  Flexible agents such as plastic-based caulking agents worked better, as they don't dry so solidly.

 

Since substantial roadbed is already included with your track, you might consider a thin 1 or 2 mm layer of flat cork between the foam and track, much as Jeff suggested.

 

The other possibility is to install a sound system to lessen the distraction.

[cteno4]

Charles is spot on that folks have found more noise transmission with ballast that used Pva/white glue vs something a bit more flexible like matte medium that gives some.

 

Jeff

[inobu]

The fascia board is acting as a baffle.

Any loose section of foam is going to vibrate.

The quality of plywood is going to add to the problem. 4 layer verses 7 layer and how the sheet was fabricated all adds up.

 

Good quality board. 7 ply 9.5mm or 3/8 inches thick.

 

 

The frame of the layout is going to make a difference as well.

 

It is hard to tell you what to do with out seeing the construction itself.

 

I have a feeling the noise is coming from the viaduct and the piers bouncing on the foam.

 

Inobu

[gavino200]

The framing made from lowes #2 whitewood board

 

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Top-Choice-1x8x6-2-Whitewood-Board/3085295

 

The board on top is OSB. 7/16 CAT ZIP system. I guess that's not really "plywood". But it's pretty solid. It's what they're making houses out of these days.

 

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Top-Choice-1x8x6-2-Whitewood-Board/3085295

 

On top of that is 1 inch blue foamboard glued to the OSB wit locktite foam glue.

 

This is the framework under construction.

 

 

This is the finished table

 

 

There is a small gap between the foamboard and the fascia, but for the most part this is filled with a small plexyglass fence that surrounds the table.

 

 

Edited February 20, 2017 by gavino200

[gavino200]

The woodland scenics underlay looks easy to use. I'm thinking of experimenting with it on a section of track.

 

Regarding the Kato double viaduct, would tiny squares of WS underlay under the support pillars help? I'm happy to experiment with this, however I'd prefer to learn from the experience of others first, rather than re-inventing the wheel myself.

[gavino200]

 

Going directly to foam can cause some resonance, so having something between that and the track will help deaden the noise. I thin the small hollow space under unitrak can also create a little resonance chamber so something deading under the unitrak will help deaden it.

 

I would suggest maybe getting some of these and doing some experiments on your setup and see what works for you.

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

 

Likely, I'll experiment with WS underlay. Regarding the Unitrack cavity, have you ever heard of anyone filling the cavity with caulk. I may try that if the result of the WS underlay is underwhelming.

[gavino200]

I did some searching a while back and found comments that it matters how you attach the foam.  It was suggested that white glue, etc. created a non-flexible bond and increased the sound.  Flexible agents such as plastic-based caulking agents worked better, as they don't dry so solidly.

 

Since substantial roadbed is already included with your track, you might consider a thin 1 or 2 mm layer of flat cork between the foam and track, much as Jeff suggested.

 

The other possibility is to install a sound system to lessen the distraction.

 

I used loctite foamboard adhesive. I made sort of a right angled spiral with the adhesive, then placed the foamboard and put heavy weights on it overnight. 

 

I'm interested in a sound system. I'd like to cut down on the white noise from the track though,  so that I could hear the sound decoders and sound system better. 

[cteno4]

If you have not attached the track much I would suggest experimenting with some thin cork or the ws foam roadbed (thin foam with stickum on both sides) and see how it works for you.

 

Sounds like your attachment of foam to the ply is firm. Next is do you have large unsupported areas of ply as like a 2'x2' or greater area could resonate some. Some extra cross battens glued in may help if it's an issue.

 

Trains get loud with motor noise, wheel/track noise and the joint clickyclak. I notice it when we shut down at the end of shows how quiet it gets w.o the trains running! 16 car trains means 128 wheels rolling along!

 

Guess you could try noise canceling of the wheel noise maybe but it would be tricky and take out some of the sound decoder noise.

 

This is the main reason I've not gotten really excited about sound decoders as we had a few early on at shows and with only that train running it was super hard to hear it with any crowd noise at all or other trains running with them, especially the Shinkansens at speed!

 

Jeff

[gavino200]

If you have not attached the track much I would suggest experimenting with some thin cork or the ws foam roadbed (thin foam with stickum on both sides) and see how it works for you.

 

Sounds like your attachment of foam to the ply is firm. Next is do you have large unsupported areas of ply as like a 2'x2' or greater area could resonate some. Some extra cross battens glued in may help if it's an issue.

 

Trains get loud with motor noise, wheel/track noise and the joint clickyclak. I notice it when we shut down at the end of shows how quiet it gets w.o the trains running! 16 car trains means 128 wheels rolling along!

 

Guess you could try noise canceling of the wheel noise maybe but it would be tricky and take out some of the sound decoder noise.

 

This is the main reason I've not gotten really excited about sound decoders as we had a few early on at shows and with only that train running it was super hard to hear it with any crowd noise at all or other trains running with them, especially the Shinkansens at speed!

 

Jeff

 

Yes, I'll definitely experiment with underlay. Either WS or cork. I've read conflicting accounts about whether the cork dries out over time. I'm leaning toward WS.

 

I have quite a few 2' x 2' squares and a couple of 3'x1' sections. I'll look into breaking them up. What kind of glue do you recommend? 

 

I think I'll skip on the noise cancelling. I'm getting more into sound decoders, and I'll experiment with station sounds at some point.

 

The noise is worst by far on the double viaducts. I wonder if I could find some gray foam with acoustic dampening properties, to make inconspicuous foot pads for the piers. I'm not sure what makes a material acoustic dampening, but I guess I could find out what the WS stuff is made of and search for the same material.

 

At slow speeds the sound isn't bad at all. But I think Shinkansens look best at full speed. Two Shinkys running full speed over viaduct add up to quite a roar.

[cteno4]

Good carpenters glue should do fine to put in some 1x2 in there. Could tack it in with air nailer or some small finishing nails toenailed in.

 

I am sceptical cork is going to dry out badly, think that will take 20+ Years. I have roadbed roll in the basement I picked up cheap 15+ years ago and I don't think it was new then and it's still just as supple as when I got it. Plus if you end up doing ballets and ground cover over it it should be pretty well sealed up.

 

Fixing the viaduct down will help. On the JRM layout we have half of the viaduct fixed down firmly on half and the other half floats soemwhat and it definitely is louder on the floating area. Try some cheapo Home Depot very low carpet material and experiment under the piers to see if they are causing noise vibrating against the table top.

 

The viaducts will be bad as when they are floating there in space on the piers alot of the vibration going into the viaduct itself will be transmitted back into the air under the viaduct. When the viaduct is fixed down to something harder like thin ply wood,mthosr vibrations can be be dampened and absorbed by the layout base better. Also the viaduct itself has a little open chamber spaces in it which could resonate some potentially.

 

Our new club layout we are using 4mm ply under all the double viaduct on each module for something to firmly attach piers to (we may make our own Y piers out of wood) and the attach the viaduct to that. In our last layout taking modules apart that joined with double viaduct attached with s joiners to piers and piers glued down did not last long before starting to comemapart, but the sections of viaduct on embankments or in the tunnel was super strong and I think quieter.

 

I think you are going to need to do some experimenting on your setup to really see what will do it for you.

 

It's always going to be loud with just those 128 steel wheels on steel rails running at 300kph!

 

Jeff

[inobu]

Gavino,

 

The OSB may be a problem because of its composition. The density of the wood dictates the variance in its ability to transmit sound. The OSB are scrap pieces of wood compressed together and molded by resin. The uniformity of the wood is chaotic. I think this is the issue of the track vibration as it is going straight through the foam, OSB and out the bottom.

 

The skirts with plexi glass may be acting as a drum.

 

Feel around with your hand looking for the high vibration spots. Hold the a leg to see if you can feel the train pass by. If so then the layout frame is too light.  

 

Also you can take a comforter and place it on the bottom of the layout. The idea is to muffle the vibration in the skirt area. This is a simple test to identify or absorb any vibration that turns into noise within that void.

 

 

Inobu 

[gavino200]

Gavino,

 

The OSB may be a problem because of its composition. The density of the wood dictates the variance in its ability to transmit sound. The OSB are scrap pieces of wood compressed together and molded by resin. The uniformity of the wood is chaotic. I think this is the issue of the track vibration as it is going straight through the foam, OSB and out the bottom.

 

The skirts with plexi glass may be acting as a drum.

 

Feel around with your hand looking for the high vibration spots. Hold the a leg to see if you can feel the train pass by. If so then the layout frame is too light.  

 

Also you can take a comforter and place it on the bottom of the layout. The idea is to muffle the vibration in the skirt area. This is a simple test to identify or absorb any vibration that turns into noise within that void.

 

 

Inobu 

 

Thanks. I'll take your advise on wood materials for my next build. For now it seems, I've got what I've got. But I will try adding cross beams for stabilization.

 

I don't use any skirting on the table. I just don't like how it looks. That probably adds to the noise. Hadn't thought about skirting as noise insulation.

 

I may try taking a sliver of foam from the edge, to try to isolate thge plexiglass. 

 

Probably the first thing to do will be to add underlay. 

[nah00]

Likely, I'll experiment with WS underlay. Regarding the Unitrack cavity, have you ever heard of anyone filling the cavity with caulk. I may try that if the result of the WS underlay is underwhelming.

 

I would imagine this would actually make it louder since you'd have one solid block to directly transmit vibration to the foam and the baseboard instead of two small slivers along the edge. 

 

Is the foam painted or not? I found I cut down on some noise once everything was sealed with latex paint. Not a huge amount but enough to notice. 

[inobu]

Gavino,

 

The dark brown wood trim/skirt you have around the bench work is creating a drum effect. The suggestion is to stuff that area to see if it will baffle the noise. It is meant to identify a remedy for noise.

It is like adding foam between the joist to the second floor

 

Ichi

[gavino200]

I'll do that. I'll probably get to this in April or May. I might try to find some way to measure the actual decibel level so I can chart my progress objectively.

[cteno4]

Yeah that's the hard thing with sound like that to get a good measure on if it's better. Sound is tough as the decibel scale is logrimthic. A simple meter may give you a rough measure but may not give you super qualitative fine scale numbers.

 

One way is to do something to part of the layout and then see if you notice a difference when the train hits that area, but it's only rough comparison.

 

Also your ear will get attenuated with the sound over a work session. I'm always amazed how loud they were and not noticing until I turn them off!

 

Jeff

[gavino200]

I'm in a position to be able to run a few experiments on this issue. Nothing too scientific. Probably either just a subjective judgement or a cellphone decibel meter. I've heard good things about woodland scenics foam underlay and ordered some to try it. I'm also mostly interested in seeing what the effect of extruded foam is on sound production. I'd like to know before I cover my layout again in the stuff. 

 

I'll probably run the tests on a section of my old layout that has an MDF top. My new modules are 7 lamina plywood. I'm committed to using this anyway so I'm not interested in this layer. I'll only be testing the relative contributions of any layer between the layout baseboard and the track. 

 

I'll probably compare.

1. Bare baseboard with Unitrack

2. Baseboard with woodland scenic foam, and Unitrack.

3. Baseboard with extruded foam and Unitrack. 

4. Baseboard with extruded foam, woodland scenic foam and Unitrack. 

 

[Sheffie]

Would you consider corrugated cardboard? It may not be an option, depending on your ambient humidity, but it might be worth considering. 

[gavino200]

14 minutes ago, Sheffie said:

Would you consider corrugated cardboard? It may not be an option, depending on your ambient humidity, but it might be worth considering. 

 

That's an interesting solution. I've never heard of it but it seems like it might work. Unfortunately my basement is a bit humid. I run a dehumidifier there all the time. Have you tried cardboard?

 

I found this interesting article about the sound properties of extruded foam. It supports what I've been suspecting.

 

https://www.dccguy.com/?p=4607

 

I'm leaning toward placing woodland scenics foam or cork between the track and the foam. The height gap wont be a problem as I'm planning to do my scenery in a modular fashion on sections of thin foamboard. 

 

I'm still planning on doing a few tests though.

 

 

[marknewton]

On the cameo layout I'm building I used a locally-made foam roadbed, similar to the Woodlands Scenic product, directly on 9mm plywood. I used a flexible latex carpet adhesive to attach the foam to the plywood, and matte medium for the ballast. It's fairly quiet, not entirely silent, but a definite improvement over the cork and white glue/PVA that I've used in the past.

 

All the best,

 

Mark.

[Sheffie]

My first layout used cardboard and I think it did a decent job of keeping the noise down. Having said that, I had nothing to compare it to at the time. The pink foam board that I used on the second layout did seem significantly louder, though. 

 

I never had issues with humidity but I ran that layout for less than a year and it was in a ventilated / air conditioned home office. If you’re in a basement and running a dehumidifier then I think cardboard might not be good. 

[gavino200]

I bought some woodland scenics foam underlay to experiment with. Interestingly they recommend placing a thin layer of plaster cloth between the WS foam underlay and underlying foam risers. I wonder if that's for sound conduction reasons or to help with adhesions. The WS risers tend to be a ziz-zag configuration rather than a continuous surface. 

 

https://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/item/RISERS?gclid=Cj0KCQiAuJb_BRDJARIsAKkycUnVNLXNnWwM3l0DsQF25ioYdKdk7-x39xYeBGtWyPyFV9KriYFtj24aAnMXEALw_wcB

[marknewton]

That might be to conceal the gaps in the edges of the risers, as the foam underlay isn't as wide as the risers. On my photo plank I glued the underlay directly to the riser using latex carpet adhesive, and then glued thin strips of Chux kitchen cloth between the edge of the foam underlay and the edge of the riser to cover the gaps. You can just make out the textured cloth in this photo when you enlarge it. I've run trains over this plank and found there's not much track noise with this method of construction.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.