KATO E6/H5 derailment issues

[Yavianice]

Hello all,

 

I have purchased the KATO E6 and I currently have the KATO H5 on order. I have already received the KATO E6 a while ago, and I have the issue that it keeps derailing (sometimes, pretty badly) at switches. -None- of my other KATO trains have this issue anywhere, even at top speed. Switching to a different E6 train just gives the same issue. I have all KATO rails and switches, very new. Some amazon.co.jp reviews say that both the H5/E5 and E6 are prone to derailment. 

 

Is there any way to stop it from derailing? Maybe weighing it down? Suggestions or personal stories/fixes are highly appreciated. I would order the TOMIX versions to see if these have the same problems, except that the TOMIX versions are much harder to acquire and very expensive. Does anyone know if the TOMIX versions also derail so often?

 

Thanks!

Edited January 28, 2017 by Yavianice

[cteno4]

Yavanice,

 

Where are your points located relative to curves and are they #4 or #6 points? Not noticed any issues with Kato e5 or e6 on our club layout with double viaduct. They make it thru the double crossover when we change tracks ok. W always keep points 124mm or more away from a curve as we noticed that shinkansens can have issues picking points right outside a curve as the coupling mechanism can cause trucks to be torqued some and hit the blade or frogs hard.

 

Jeff

[Yavianice]

I always have at least a 62mm between a curve and a point or an opposite curve. I only use #4 points for dead end tracks; the train never goes full speed here (and doesn't derail). It derails at the double crossover (with a 248mm straight before the curve) and the standard points (but not all of them), starting around 70% power. At full speed, the other trains (Shinkansens or otherwise from Tomix and Kato) have have no issue with any of the points.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Yavianice

[Martijn Meerts]

I have no issues with either the E5 or E6, not even when running them combined. I don't use Kato track though, but Peco. I do however have things like crossovers and turnouts followed immediately with a crossing, and the rather large amounts of turnouts when entering and exiting the yard.

 

Is it always the same car that derails?

[Yavianice]

Different cars at different points / directions, some moreso than others. The motor car never derails, making me think it might be a weight issue.

[Martijn Meerts]

Could always try adding some weight, just for testing. On the other hand, if other people don't have any issues with the train, even on Kato track, it can't be something as simple as the cars not being heavy enough.

[cteno4]

Have you checked your wheel gauges? Also checked all the trucks are turning freely?

 

Jeff

[VJM]

Easiest way to add weight is to add the lighting.  I have experienced a full E5+E6 consist derailing due to poorly laid track and very close reverse curves, but a careful bit of driving should be able to overcome this.

[HantuBlauLOL]

afaik american n scale guys says that kato #4 switches are problematic.

[Yavianice]

afaik american n scale guys says that kato #4 switches are problematic.

Yes, quite. I am not buying #4 switches again. But I managed to get 2 of the switches which work perfectly.

 

Have you checked your wheel gauges? Also checked all the trucks are turning freely?

 

Jeff

Yes. I have tested 2 separate trains, both brand new. Also with different combinations.

 

Easiest way to add weight is to add the lighting.  I have experienced a full E5+E6 consist derailing due to poorly laid track and very close reverse curves, but a careful bit of driving should be able to overcome this.

Yes. I had to relay my track to make it more tolerable for trains to run over. Now there is at least 248 mm between a curve and an opposite curve, and at least 62 mm between curve and points.

[medusa]

Hmmm... since I also have a quite new E6, made some tests.

 

 

Set up R315 curves, no straight track between curve and switch to make it harder. Switch goes opposite to curve.

 

I ran my E6 both directions, full speed, switches set to both straight and branching, no derailments at all whatever I tried. Switches are Kato #4, too.

Maybe it's a difference since I do all switch operation by hand, so I alawys take care it is switched fully (i.e., no gap left at the point). Don't know if that matters vs. electric switching.

[kvp]

I found that electric switching is more reliable, especially with series capacitor circuits. Hand switching might leave a turnout half thrown. Also i had to fix two new #4 points a few weeks ago as the springs were misaligned out of the box and they didn't lock in place after electric throwing.

[buckingham]

I don't want to hijack this thread in another direction but I don't know whether the e6 has the ' tilting' mechanism.

I have a Kato Kamome 6 car set which has the mechanism and it looks fine around the bends and straightens up well but one or two of the cars may not get properly upright. When I run it on the inner circle of my track, which has 2 #6 points, the third or fourth car may derail. This does not happen with my other 6 car sets which do not have the mechanism.

So I have wondered whether as the first two cars enter the bend and begin to tilt, and the third and fourth are going over the point 'upright' as it were, the inclination of the weight to the inside of the track has an impact on the as yet non tilting cars, causing derailment. They are very lightweight after all.

I have also wondered whether the position of the motor car makes a difference I.e. When it at the rear of the train pushing more coaches than when at the front of the train pulling them.

[inobu]

It like VJM said, its most likely a track issue. Those units are built for super elevated tracks. Their design mimics the real trains. Normally the issue with the switches is they don't lie flat. The wires have the tendency to create a fulcrum with the switches.

As the train travels over that area the weight shift back and forth. If you watch closely you will see the track move.

If the trains is traveling fast enough it starts bouncing and your derailment is seconds away. That is why some are suggesting to slow down. That limits the cause and effect.

 

What are your other trains? Most likely they have a different wheel base or chassis formation. 

 

Inobu

Edited January 30, 2017 by inobu

[cteno4]

Forgot to ask what curves are you using?

 

Also are there platforms at the points Ys?

 

I ask as we had issues of some randomn derailing at points with shinkansens and were able to trace it down to the curved Kato platforms being too close to the point. We had them where Kato specified but found that at max Shinkansen speed when the come off the viaduct curve and hit the point that sometimes you get a tiny bit of wobble that would then cause a bump into the platform end that could then create enough wobble to derail. It seemed to build down a few cars before it would finally cause a truck to pick the point.

 

We moved the platforms back about an couple of cm and that got rid of 95+% of the random derailments there.

 

Jeff

[katoftw]

I have a Kato Kamome 6 car set which has the mechanism and it looks fine around the bends and straightens up well but one or two of the cars may not get properly upright. When I run it on the inner circle of my track, which has 2 #6 points, the third or fourth car may derail. This does not happen with my other 6 car sets which do not have the mechanism.

So I have wondered whether as the first two cars enter the bend and begin to tilt, and the third and fourth are going over the point 'upright' as it were, the inclination of the weight to the inside of the track has an impact on the as yet non tilting cars, causing derailment. They are very lightweight after all.

I have also wondered whether the position of the motor car makes a difference I.e. When it at the rear of the train pushing more coaches than when at the front of the train pulling them.

I can help you with that.  I have had the same issues with both my 883s and 885s.

 

The tilting mech in the motor cars does not tilt as much as the other non motor cars.  The bogies/trucks in the motor car also have a tendency to drop a little out of the chassis.  When the do drop, they loose all tilt ability altogether and some of the rotation.  When this happens, it prevents that cars next to the motor car from tilting and sometimes it will lift wheels off the track on corners.  Hence when derailments might happen.  You may also notice the train jolting along in corners, especially when exiting a corner onto a straight.

 

You can check this is happening on your motor units by simply test whether the bogies/trucks will tilt or not in your finger tips, while holding the motor car with bogies/trucks facing downwards.  If not, just a small bush back into the chassis should fix this.  You'll feel it go click into place.  You'll also gain tilt back and rotation back.

Edited January 30, 2017 by katoftw

[Yavianice]

To answer everybody's questions:

- All my points are electrically controlled. 

- I only use superelevated curves. I do not have single track curves anywhere on my track (except the curves for the points to make a parallel track). Some 315-282, but mostly 414-381. The derailments usually happen before the 315-282 curves, but not always. It never happens on the curve.
- I do not have platforms yet.... sadly

- The E6 does not have a tilting mechanism, as far as I know. The E7 does; it has no problem with anywhere on the track, at full speed. 

- The derailments usually happen in the merging direction, not the diverging. Only at the double crossover it derails in the diverging direction, preceded by a 248mm straight. Note that I do not have any problems with my #4 points.

 

One of the issues I have with superelevated curves on the ground is that they tend to slightly bend. I use double sided tape to keep it down somewhat. Though I never have problems with derailing trains on these sections.

[kvp]

One of the issues I have with superelevated curves on the ground is that they tend to slightly bend. I use double sided tape to keep it down somewhat. Though I never have problems with derailing trains on these sections.

Did you check if you connected the right ends of the transition parts? They could bend if you mix up the superelevated end with the normal one.

 

For the derailments, i would say you might want to check for out of gauge wheelsets or just lint in the pickups.

[Yavianice]

Did you check if you connected the right ends of the transition parts? They could bend if you mix up the superelevated end with the normal one.

 

They are correct. With bend I mean that the curves just stand upright somewhat in big curves.

[inobu]

So the issue is on a crossover?

 

Inobu