Correct way to wire a DCC layout?

[gavino200]

I made a first draft of a detection block plan. The lines on the track show the boundaries of the blocks. The colors have no meaning. I just included color to make it easier to see where one block ends and another begins.

 

The loop on the left has three blocks for each track. The reason is that we have a plan to make this a tunnel. The street level will be raised. We're hoping to put an underground station on the left end. It's not ideal - but I think it will be fun. So the three blocks are as per KVs station block idea.

 

I didn't include Yard 2. I'm really not sure what this will actually be yet. But I can remove one side-line and use a BD4 to block the remaining three tracks plus the approaching track from Track 2.

 

There are actually 6 tracks in Yard 1. I left one out on my previous sketch. I was thinking of a BDL. One block for the section that connects Track 2 to the yard. Then I can divide the first three into three blocks, and the second three into two blocks.

 

 

 

 

Let me know what you guys think.

 

Now to think about color coding and buy some wire.

Edited January 29, 2017 by gavino200

[gavino200]

The colors help in troubleshooting and keeps order.

 

Based on your plan so far. Blue and white is your feeder wires.

If you were troubleshooting a switch problem you wouldn't look at a blue and white wire because it has nothing to do with switches. If you left the switches red and black then you could identify them easily.

 

In my case I setup my blocks as gray,white,green and red. Those are the block wiring to the feeders. When I'm above the layout and have a problem in zone 1 block 4. I know to look for Yellow belt wire and the red block wire.

 

Section 1-4 is Yellow,Orange,Blue,Violet. Block 1-4 Gray,White,Green,Red.

 

Section 4 block 2 is down. Under the table you would look for what wire.

 

Inobu

 

I like the logic you're using here. But it seems like you have 4 blocks to each zone. Am I right?

You're feeding all 4 outputs (Yellow, orange, purple, and blue) from a PM4 into a BDL168.

That gives your four sets of four blocks. Each bundle has four color coded wires (Gray, white, green, red). The wire color signifies Block 1, 2, 3, and 4, while the band on each bundle signifies which PM4 output the bundle is from.

That way the combination of wire color and band identify its destination zone and block.

This is very nice. I like it. 

 

However, if I were to replicate this scheme I would need to find 16 different wire colors. That's probably more doable than it seems. There are multiple colors available. I could also look for striped wires. Or I could use a permanent marker to alter the appearance of some wires - stripes, dashes etc. 

 

I'll have to give this some more thought. 

Apart from wire everything else is ordered.

[gavino200]

Gavino,

 

Here is what a PM 4 wired looks like.

 

The blue and white wire from the right represents the input power.

The plug draped at the bottom is the short protected out put that is connected to the track sections.

The red and black on the left is the power that runs the PM4.

 

In the long run I would switch your DCC system to Digitrax. The MRC system is going to be limiting.

 

Inobu

 

 

Looking at this I see there is another issue that I didn't fully understand. You have the same color for all your common rail outputs - brown. I'll need to go back and read the PM4 manual again, but it would seem from your wiring that the circuit gets broken at the control rail side only. The common rail signal must be identical in all wires, otherwise you would have to keep them paired.

 

My thinking about wiring is so DC based that I had assumed I would need to plan to keep track of wire pairs throughout the system. There's really no need to keep track of common wire outputs at all. I could actually fuse Brown wires (assuming your color scheme) from the PM4 to form one single common rail bus. Am I right?

[inobu]

The PM4 is creating 4 isolated outputs that are not tied together. That is why I have the connectors pairing with their respective common/brown/B rail. When the PM4 takes a section out of service none of the other 3 are connected to each other therefore they are isolated. You don't want one circuit taking everyone else out .

 

Inobu

[gavino200]

Those are the same connectors used for PC power supplies. I buy them in bulk from Digi Key or McMaster Carr but you can get them from Fry's electronics too. I recommend getting the ratchet type crimp tools with dies. 

it cost more but does a better job.

 

Inobu 

 

Any chance you can find me a link for those snap connectors and the sleeves you use. Those sites have a gazillion bizarrely named products. I can't find them.

[inobu]

http://www.frys.com/search?storeNo=All%20Products&sqxts=1&cat=&search_type=regular&query_string=Connectors&fq=m10099998%20PACTECH

 

 

http://www.frys.com/product/2281378?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

 

You can also get them from McMaster Carr. They have everything.

 

https://www.mcmaster.com/

 

Inobu

[gavino200]

 

 

The PM4 is creating 4 isolated outputs that are not tied together. That is why I have the connectors pairing with their respective common/brown/B rail. When the PM4 takes a section out of service none of the other 3 are connected to each other therefore they are isolated. You don't want one circuit taking everyone else out .

 

Inobu

 

Yes, the PM4 manual suggests that they four outputs are paired A and B. At least they are labeled as such.

 

Your PM4 seems to have two snap connector outputs - one is orange, yellow, blue, purple and the other is brown times four. Am I seeing this incorrectly?

 

How do you keep track of your four brown common rail wires? Why use brown for all four?

Edited January 29, 2017 by gavino200

[gavino200]

http://www.frys.com/search?storeNo=All%20Products&sqxts=1&cat=&search_type=regular&query_string=Connectors&fq=m10099998%20PACTECH

 

 

http://www.frys.com/product/2281378?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

 

You can also get them from McMaster Carr. They have everything.

 

https://www.mcmaster.com/

 

Inobu

 

Awesome. Thanks!!

[inobu]

Because I do different configurations I use the connectors like harnesses. If I was working on a layout without a BDL168 I would just

Connect directly to the PM4 and peel each color to their respective blocks.

 

In the case of a BDL168 I have a connector that takes the two connector from the PM4, pulls the the four colors and connect to the BDL168. With that I link the brown common with its respective color harness.

 

This becomes necessary because of the RX4 which it Digitraxs transponding components. It has to be wired into the system. Trying to add the transponding later would be a nightmare.

 

This concept allows you to add or take out components how ever you want. The layout is easier to move. Disconnect roll up and go.

 

Inobu

Edited January 29, 2017 by inobu

[gavino200]

Ok. So I did 'see' incorrectly. I just magnified the image. What I thought was yellow, orange, blue, purple all in one harness was in fact yellow, brown, orange, brown. 

 

The other harness, that I thought was four browns, is a blue, brown, purple, brown. 

 

You just use the harness to keep the brown wires coupled with their respective control rail wire. 

[gavino200]

For an eventual color scheme, I'm going to adopt your scheme with the addition a second signifier on the cable sleeves from the BDL. The second band will tell me which set of four wires it is. Bundle 1 (1,2,3,4) Bundle 2 (5,6,7,8) etc. The color of the wire will tell me the the wires order within it's bundle. Gray wire with a yellow band, and a band signifying bundle 1 is Zone 1, block 1. Gray wire with yellow band and band signifying bundle 2, is Zone 1, block 5. etc.

 

For now it's simple. four colors from the PM4 connecting to four CB protected buses. Plus a ton of independently fed gapped block feeders for later block detection addition.

 

Everything is ordered except for wire. Looking forward to the project.

 

Thanks for all your help :)

[inobu]

That's it.

 

You'll be good to go.

 

Inobu

[gavino200]

I found this nice write-up on how to make your own "Kato" power track joiners. 

 

http://www.fiferhobby.com/html/how_to_make_kato_unitrack_feed.html

 

It works well. The only difference is that Kato also glues the plastic insulation to the plastic part of the joiner.

Edited January 29, 2017 by gavino200

[cteno4]

Yep works well! We've done these on the club layou in the past and one of club members just did his small unitrak layout this way

 

We are about to do a few hundred of these for the new JRM layout. Each of the modules will have feeders to the track pieces at each end that join to a bus line. We are hoping that this will limit our total track joint voltage drops to a dozen or so track joints and eliminate the need for bus connectors between modules and then only need to feed 1-3 modules around the setup. Interesting experiment. We are trying to eliminate as many things as possible in the layout setup. We are getting old and lazy! No rather the easier and simpler setup is the fewer folks we need and the more versatility we have for shows, it's been an evolution over the years.

 

Jeff

[gavino200]

Yep works well! We've done these on the club layou in the past and one of club members just did his small unitrak layout this way

 

We are about to do a few hundred of these for the new JRM layout. Each of the modules will have feeders to the track pieces at each end that join to a bus line. We are hoping that this will limit our total track joint voltage drops to a dozen or so track joints and eliminate the need for bus connectors between modules and then only need to feed 1-3 modules around the setup. Interesting experiment. We are trying to eliminate as many things as possible in the layout setup. We are getting old and lazy! No rather the easier and simpler setup is the fewer folks we need and the more versatility we have for shows, it's been an evolution over the years.

 

Jeff

 

They work really well. I had my track powered with about 20 of them before. I just kept adding them anywhere I noticed the trains had a problem. I went around the layout with a (fairly cheap) multimeter. The only drop I found was .1 V in a few places. I'll be using 44 of these suckers when I power up again.

 

I recently met the guys from my local n-scale club, at a train show here. They're an interesting bunch - very tech savvy. They had used code track for years but recently changed to unitrack. They said they've been much happier since switching. 

 

You should have seen their eyes glaze over when I talked to them about Japanese trains, though.

 

BTW, for anyone trying Mike Fifer's technique in the link above. I'd suggest two changes.

 

1. Don't use a hobby knife for this, unless really want to spend the evening in the emergency room. Also, it looks like it cuts up the plastic a bit. Use a dental pick instead. I got a set of them in Harbor Freight years ago. It seems like this is the job they were destined for. Works perfectly

 

2. If you want to keep the Kato plastic wires joined/paired, then load the plastic part of the joiner on both wires before you start soldering.

 

 

I just did about 20 of these babies while the boy sat next to me soldering wire daisy chains with my old iron. Fun times! My wife got a gift of a soldered wire necklace.

 

Edited January 30, 2017 by gavino200

[gavino200]

I'm still waiting for a few parts and materials to arrive. Hope to get the layout up and running again next weekend. I just made a plan for my 'control area'. I needed to know how much space I need so I could buy a piece of furniture to put it on. 

 

Anything obviously wrong or missing?

 

 

Edited February 6, 2017 by gavino200

[inobu]

No issues that I see. I would not mount the laptop on the board. It can smother it which will cause it to over heat. (if its not mounted in a manner to efficiently cool itself).

 

 

 

Inobu

[gavino200]

No issues that I see. I would not mount the laptop on the board. It can smother it which will cause it to over heat. (if its not mounted in a manner to efficiently cool itself).

 

 

 

Inobu

 

Thanks. I ordered a table with a shelf wide enough to fit the electronic. The computer will just sit on top. I'll probably take it out to use it. There's another decent sized shelf for future expansion.

 

1. Junction control

2. Block detection/signalling

3. Limited automation

[inobu]

It easy to tell someone what to do and buy when you are not paying for it. You got (by yourself no input from me) exactly what you needed. I hinted about the laptop because I know you will want to set up a small version of this.

 

 

This is the other aspect to train operation which is just as fun if the CTC (Centralized Traffic Control) is set up correctly.

This is why the detailed block detection is important to set up ahead of time. After you get the layout done this is the final piece.

 

Here is a layout with almost 50 turn outs I did. Its on 2 27" monitors. When you have a larger layout you need to control it.

 

 

JMRI allows you to create both configurations.

 

Inobu

Edited February 6, 2017 by inobu

[gavino200]

LOL. That picture is hilarious. But yes, I do want a little version of that. The JMRI layout control, looks great. I could probably control my layout with just one window. I really like the the idea of a dedicated tablet set into the fascia. 

 

I'm about to execute the plan discussed above and won't move on to another project until I come back from vacation, but I understand this project fairly well, so my mind is wandering to future projects....

 

I found your signalling thread, but haven't gone through it in detail yet. I've got a couple of questions.

 

1. If cost weren't an issue, how small would you make your blocks? I'm guessing the effect is better with more blocks. I'm pretty frugal by nature, and don't like to waste money. But honestly, I do ok. I'm not sweating the cost of a few BDL168s and some wire. And I'm sort of enjoying learning about wiring. How much is ideal (ie how small would each ideal block be). How much is redundant? 

 

2. Did you mention you use transponding? If so, is there a thread where you discuss it in detail? Or can you give me a rundown of some pros/cons? It sounds interesting but I don't like the idea of being limited to just using Digitrax decoders.

 

To recap: my current future plan is a BDL168 each for track 1, track 2, and Yard 1, and a BD4 for yard 2 (or whatever that becomes). That's what I'm setting up the track for.

[inobu]

With JMRI you can have a number of tablets so that's no problem.

 

You want to make the blocks the basic size of your consist (train group 4,5,6 cars.) That way one train is occupying one section and the display/Controls will reflect that.

 

I posted the basics on the same thread you asked the question. It breaks down the connection.

 

To recap: my current future plan is a BDL168 each for track 1, track 2, and Yard 1, and a BD4 for yard 2 (or whatever that becomes). That's what I'm setting up the track for.

 

Good plan but....

 

You do realize that this is your practice/learning layout? lol Either you are going to tear this one down or close to it by rebuilding it. For this reason you cannot spend too much time on one thing. You are fact finding and building at the same time. It can have to running in circles if you are not careful.

 

I'm going to make a few suggestions that's going to help you out. You need to add rounded corners to the bench work. It does two things. It gives it form and a few more inches for better space utilization.

 

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/sites/model-railroad-hobbyist.com/files/users/rblundon/IMG_0208.jpg

 

 

These 45 on the ends allows you to round them with the Masonite. It gives the bench work a custom look.

 

http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/554/Layer-1_104_.jpg

 

After that just focus on getting it operational.

 

Inobu

 

 

Also, there no need for the Ardiuno for the sound. It is already in JMRI.

JMRI has a logic system built in that you can program to play whatever.

The laptop can play the wav files and you can place the speakers where you want. You can use a bluetooth speakers.

Edited February 8, 2017 by cteno4

[kvp]

 

 

You do realize that this is your practice/learning layout?  lol  Either you are going to tear this one down or close to it by rebuildingit. For this reason you cannot spend too much time on one thing. You are fact finding and building at the same time. It can have to running in circles if you are not careful.

I belive everyone can build a good layout by properly designing it first. You just have to know what you want and how you can get to it. This means most errors could be avoided by proper planning and learning from other people's mistakes. There are very few model layout construction problems that are never met by someone else out there with access to the internet.

 

Also, a non rectangular shape might look cool and save on scenicing the corners, but there is really no good or bad shape as everyone has their own preferences on what they like. I prefer transportability over custom shapes, so rectangular modules are better for me. However, regardless of the shape, having a layout fixed in place (built into the house) mostly turned out to be a bad idea as far as i could tell. My advice would be to plan for a movable layout, so you could take it apart and assemble it again somewhere else without damaging anything.

 

Did you mention you use transponding? If so, is there a thread where you discuss it in detail? Or can you give me a rundown of some pros/cons? It sounds interesting but I don't like the idea of being limited to just using Digitrax decoders.

You won't be limited, but the non transponding decoders will turn up as unknown trains. If you are using computer control, then better software packages, like JMRI can follow trains around the layout without transponding, but if you want routing or automatic operation based on train id-s, then transponding makes that easy. Also you can just place a train on the track and the system will know which one it is, without the operator having to enter it manually.

 

Transponding is actually in use on the real train networks (of course with different signal formats), where a station's system could display the train number on the signaller's board and even allow preset routes to be automatically selected. This allows automatic train routing to the advertised platform based on the published time table.

[gavino200]

 

 

Good plan but....

 

You do realize that this is your practice/learning layout?  lol  Either you are going to tear this one down or close to it by rebuilding it. For this reason you cannot spend too much time on one thing. You are fact finding and building at the same time. It can have to running in circles if you are not careful.

 

 

 

Also, there no need for the Ardiuno for the sound. It is already in JMRI.

JMRI has a logic system built in that you can program to play whatever. 

The laptop can play the wav files and you can place the speakers where you want. You can use a bluetooth speakers. 

 

 

Yeah, this is my fourth practice/learning layout. The first two were DC -  a simple loop of code track on plywood, and then a more complex DC Unitrack layout. The third was a 4x8 rectangle with DCC. This is our first attempt at making a 'table top' layout, and it's the biggest yet. 

 

I like this one best so far, but I think bigger would be more fun. We could expand it to take over the room eventually, but I think it would completely dominate the room. I also want to use the room to play music and chill/read.

 

I notice that lately, as I visit friends, I find myself evaluating their floor plan and basement in terms of how big a layout I could put in it. I'd consider moving to a house with a giant basement in a couple of years. We'll see.

 

 

The Arduino is a separate hobby. It's a lot of fun. I started with the idea of doing lego robotics with the boy. But a bit of calculating up front shows that any interesting project done with Lego or any of the "kid friendly" robotics kits would quickly go into the thousands of dollars. I built/assembled a home computer this year with the boy and it was pretty obvious that he could use and understand real components. So I heard about arduino and looked into them. It's pennies on the dollar compared to the kid friendly "Stem" kits, and far cooler because it's the real thing, so to speak. We finally started tinkering with the hardware and "wrote" our first program last week. So Arduino is something we're doing. Our plan is to build a robot and some self balancing units. We may even attempt to make our own 3D printer at some stage. I think it would be fun to combine Arduino with the train enterprise. It's not so much that we have some effect in mind that can only be done with arduino. It's more that, we're doing arduino projects and are looking for interesting train related ideas.

 

PS what material do you use to make those small sub-boards that you then attach to the larger white-painted wooden board? 

Edited February 8, 2017 by gavino200

[gavino200]

I prefer transportability over custom shapes, so rectangular modules are better for me. However, regardless of the shape, having a layout fixed in place (built into the house) mostly turned out to be a bad idea as far as i could tell. My advice would be to plan for a movable layout, so you could take it apart and assemble it again somewhere else without damaging anything.

 

You won't be limited, but the non transponding decoders will turn up as unknown trains. If you are using computer control, then better software packages, like JMRI can follow trains around the layout without transponding, but if you want routing or automatic operation based on train id-s, then transponding makes that easy. Also you can just place a train on the track and the system will know which one it is, without the operator having to enter it manually.

 

Transponding is actually in use on the real train networks (of course with different signal formats), where a station's system could display the train number on the signaller's board and even allow preset routes to be automatically selected. This allows automatic train routing to the advertised platform based on the published time table.

 

I agree about transportation. I don't plan to take mine out of the house unless I move. But I designed so that I could move it if I have to. It's modular. Three weight bearing sections and two bridging sections. They're bolted together. In order to take them apart I just need to cut the foam upper layer and unbolt. The legs are all bolt-on and removable too. I also did this with a view to gradually colonizing/taking over the whole room. Incrementalism is a good way to keep the wife in agreement ;)

 

I'm still a little conflicted about transponding. I'm going to have to see it in action somewhere to decide. I like the technology and would love to build it into my layout just for fun. But I'm also becoming quite sold on sound. So far I like the Soundtraxx and Locsound decoders. I'd like to go ahead using what ever decoders offer the best features, rather than sticking with digitrax. I wonder if I can do both by putting Digitrax decoders in cars.  

Edited February 8, 2017 by gavino200

[inobu]

Arduino

 

PS what material do you use to make those small sub-boards that you then attach to the larger white-painted wooden board? 

 

I was steering you away from the Ardinuo because you will be reinventing the wheel. I went the same route and wasted a lot of time. I'm not a programmer and learning the language was taking too much time.

After a quick check I got the sound to play within 10 minutes. I was able to place a engine on the track and the crossing wav played. From there it was the JR lady announcing the train arrival. That lead to the speaker portion which lead to the PAM84 amp. That lead to the blue tooth speaker and the sound segment was checked off and done.

 

I think the Arduino is a good skill set to build on but if you want the get the layout done you have to stream line as many learning curves as you can. 

 

Now, I'm addressing a few tool gaps and I'll be on my way again.

 

Inobu

 

 

It is white 1/8"acrylic with computer type stand off' holding the board on.