Correct way to wire a DCC layout?

[gavino200]

That layout needs a lot of blocks and sections. You need to get the BDL168 for track 1 and 2 and the BD4's for the yards. Yard 1 needs 2 and yard 2 only need one.

 

 

 

Inobu

 

Do you mean a BDL168 for (Track 1 + Track 2)? Or a BDL168 for each? Would you mind posting a few pics of your undertable wiring and buses? I'd really like to see what it looks like.

 

I bought a Digitrax system last night. I should have about a week to think about my wiring before it arrives. I'd like to do some work on laying bus wire and setting up insulated blocks before it gets here. 

 

On KenS's Sumida Crossing he mentions that his PM42 to location detector/feeder wiring was limited in gauge because the PM42 connectors wouldn't allow him to use bigger than 22 gauge wire. Have you had any issues like that? Did you find a way around it?

Edited January 25, 2017 by gavino200

[kvp]

Unless you want computer automation, block detection is not needed at all. Larger blocks are generally used for signal automation while small blocks are needed for automatic station stops and shunting. If you want to play, then manual signalling and a few handheld throttles are more than enough. This means (imho) that you don't really need any block detection at all.

 

ps: Large blocks are usually signalling blocks long, while small blocks are usually where you want to trigger a programmed event, like a station stop. Most layouts mix the two depending on the level of automation and the computer control software involved. Personally i would just buy 2 or 3 throttle socket panels and put them up around the layout so it remains possible to drive manually.

[gavino200]

Unless you want computer automation, block detection is not needed at all. Larger blocks are generally used for signal automation while small blocks are needed for automatic station stops and shunting. If you want to play, then manual signalling and a few handheld throttles are more than enough. This means (imho) that you don't really need any block detection at all.

 

ps: Large blocks are usually signalling blocks long, while small blocks are usually where you want to trigger a programmed event, like a station stop. Most layouts mix the two depending on the level of automation and the computer control software involved. Personally i would just buy 2 or 3 throttle socket panels and put them up around the layout so it remains possible to drive manually.

 

I know. What I'm saying, and what I'm asking about aren't consistent. I'm sort of thinking on two tracks (now and future). Right now we don't need block detection. I've talked with the boy about automation. He thinks it cool, but I don't think he'd have the patience for it yet, and I'm pretty sure he'd find it less fun.

 

However, this hobby is a great bonding thing for us. We're having lots of fun. I think automation might be a great project for us in the future. We're also planning on doing a few arduino projects. Automation might be a way to bring the two together. So I'd like to learn about it, and build in some of the framework for it now. If we decided to add automation in future it would be nice not to have to rip up the tracks to accomplish it. Especially since, by then hopefully we'll have done a decent bit of modelling.

[gavino200]

Up until now we've used extra-long cable to keep us mobile. We were planning to do the same thing again. But I'll look into using those Digitrax jacks.

 

[Ochanomizu]

Hello,

 

Just a few things ... some serious ... some not:

 

Firstly, move your layout.  Clearly you're in a bad neighbourhood ... just look at the size of that police force!!!

 

Secondly, the BDL168's are a great way to go.  You can do so much with them, especially if you're son gets interested in computer control.  If you get into to that, you will probably want some very short blocks at the end of platforms so the computer knows when the lead car reaches the end of the platform.

 

Thirdly, DCS100 has been replaced by the DCS240.  DCS100 is more than adequate for your needs.  Pick one up quickly while you can as the 240 is around $100 more expensive.

 

Fourthly, you WILL need a power supply of some kind.  The PS2012 is excellent, but more than you'll need for that layout.  PS514 will be fine for your layout.

 

Fifthly ... is that a word? ... Fifthly, check out the Accu-Lites Digitrax Breakout Boards.  For time poor people like me they are an easy wiring solution that does not require soldering.  They will also happily take AWG12 wire ... probably even AWG10.  Each board comes with a simple instruction sheet.

 

Finally, that's your son's layout, right? .... and yours is that little loop of track on the floor

 

:P

 

 

[gavino200]

Hello,

 

Just a few things ... some serious ... some not:

 

Firstly, move your layout.  Clearly you're in a bad neighbourhood ... just look at the size of that police force!!!

 

Secondly, the BDL168's are a great way to go.  You can do so much with them, especially if you're son gets interested in computer control.  If you get into to that, you will probably want some very short blocks at the end of platforms so the computer knows when the lead car reaches the end of the platform.

 

Thirdly, DCS100 has been replaced by the DCS240.  DCS100 is more than adequate for your needs.  Pick one up quickly while you can as the 240 is around $100 more expensive.

 

Fourthly, you WILL need a power supply of some kind.  The PS2012 is excellent, but more than you'll need for that layout.  PS514 will be fine for your layout.

 

Fifthly ... is that a word? ... Fifthly, check out the Accu-Lites Digitrax Breakout Boards.  For time poor people like me they are an easy wiring solution that does not require soldering.  They will also happily take AWG12 wire ... probably even AWG10.  Each board comes with a simple instruction sheet.

 

Finally, that's your son's layout, right? .... and yours is that little loop of track on the floor

 

:P

 

Thanks Ochanomizu. Appreciate the funnies! :)

 

Yeah, our layout one bad neighborhood. Sort of Japan meets Hunger Games. We want to expand the militarized police force. So far all I could find were 3D printed 'Peace Keepers' on Shapeways. I'd like to get some Bearcats or Kaspers. Also thinking of repainting some armored personnel carriers and putting 'police' stickers on them. :)

 

Adding short platform blocks to the plan.

 

Yes. I don't need a DCS240. I picked up a discounted DCS100 + transformer starter set. It was discounted due to being discontinued.

 

I'll check out the break out boards. Looks like they could be handy, especially for under the table where it's probably not too much fun to solder. Although, I taught the boy to solder last week and he loves it. I'm also watching instructional videos to improve my technique, so I could use the practice. 

 

The little track is our improvised DC test track. It's Kato double track that were were going to use for the layout, but we found that It was fairly difficult to work with (That's a whole nother story). We're thinking of leaving a small loop of it set up in the corner on a table. Just bought a sofa and coffee table too, so we can kick back and enjoy the trains when we're (I'm) tired of playing. 

Edited January 25, 2017 by gavino200

[inobu]

Do you mean a BDL168 for (Track 1 + Track 2)? Or a BDL168 for each? Would you mind posting a few pics of your undertable wiring and buses? I'd really like to see what it looks like.

 

I bought a Digitrax system last night. I should have about a week to think about my wiring before it arrives. I'd like to do some work on laying bus wire and setting up insulated blocks before it gets here. 

 

On KenS's Sumida Crossing he mentions that his PM42 to location detector/feeder wiring was limited in gauge because the PM42 connectors wouldn't allow him to use bigger than 22 gauge wire. Have you had any issues like that? Did you find a way around it?

You should get a BDL168 for each. This way you can have the right amount of blocks. As you build and complete your layout one has the tendency to add all the bells and whistles. Part of that is signaling (bells and whistles) which requires block detection. Most do not get to that point and fail to see the value. As you start to automate your layout the controlling system needs to know where things are.

 

Every one keeps telling me to take pictures of my wiring but a never do. I use a power distribution method of wiring which many don't care for. I was mocked for PMing my projects/builds but my layouts have a very low trouble rate. Plan out as much as you can it will pay off in the end.

 

In any case you are quite aways along. For your switches get the Jack wabbit switch controllers. They work with loconet and the LED wiring for lights is really easy.

 

Inobu

[gavino200]

You should get a BDL168 for each. This way you can have the right amount of blocks. As you build and complete your layout one has the tendency to add all the bells and whistles. Part of that is signaling (bells and whistles) which requires block detection. Most do not get to that point and fail to see the value. As you start to automate your layout the controlling system needs to know where things are.

 

Every one keeps telling me to take pictures of my wiring but a never do. I use a power distribution method of wiring which many don't care for. I was mocked for PMing my projects/builds but my layouts have a very low trouble rate. Plan out as much as you can it will pay off in the end.

 

In any case you are quite aways along. For your switches get the Jack wabbit switch controllers. They work with loconet and the LED wiring for lights is really easy.

 

Inobu

 

Thanks Inobu. As always I appreciate your advice. Sorry to hear that you were mocked for your ideas. I've always found your posts to be clear and informative, and have a high regard for your opinion. 

 

 

For any beginners who stumble across this thread in future:

I just read "DCC Made Easy". It was recommended in an old post by KenS. 

https://www.amazon.com/DCC-Made-Easy-Railroad-Railroader/dp/0890246165

 

I had already learned much of the material from wiringforDCC.com but this book sort of brings it all together. Short, simple and demystifying. Well worth the short time to read. 

 

I'm amazed to learn what DC modelers had to do to wire their layouts before DCC came along.

Edited January 26, 2017 by gavino200

[gavino200]

Thanks for the switching idea. I'll check out the Jack Wabbit products.

 

Up until now I've been using Kato switches powered by an old DC controller, with a numbered schematic and a cheat sheet hanging next to it. It's a real headache.

 

 

 

[inobu]

I did happen to take a shot of the PDP on one layout I did. It was similar to yours. To give you an idea of how I lay it out.

I create a power map, build the panels and install the modules. Its time consuming but on the tail end I have very little trouble shooting in the end and finding problems are rather easy.

 

 

I just mount the modules in place and connect the bus wires. The bus wires are color coded and snap connect.

The cables have color coded tie wraps that indicated the Section and the Blocks have a sub level color code.

It takes longer but much easier to grow and groom. You can see how they connect together. I sleeve everything for protection

I add power connectors for the DC power input.

 

Most balk at this method because its time consuming but no one ever complains about how the layout runs.

 

Inobu

Edited January 26, 2017 by inobu

[inobu]

Thanks for the switching idea. I'll check out the Jack Wabbit products.

 

Up until now I've been using Kato switches powered by an old DC controller, with a numbered schematic and a cheat sheet hanging next to it. It's a real headache.

 

 

 

That is the same route I took. When I converted to DCC is switched to the DS64 but last year I started using the Jack Wabbits

 

See the connectors. Network feedback, LED feedback and manual control connections. Make sure it is the Jack Wabbit and has Loconet.

With that you can add touch screen controls.

 

Inobu 

 

Here is the layout of how it is connected.

 

 

I posted the wrong image this was my final test board.

 

Edited January 26, 2017 by inobu

[gavino200]

Thanks. That's amazing. I never would have thought of that. I really like that approach. I think it makes a lot of sense to take time to do this. I hate wire sprawl. I wan't to make my wiring as clean as possible.

 

I'd like to design a comprehensive board now for where I to take this over the next couple of years. That way I can add to the system in an organized modular fashion.

 

Where did you get those snap plugs? What are they called?

[gavino200]

That is the same route I took. When I converted to DCC is switched to the DS64 but last year I started using the Jack Wabbits

 

See the connectors. Network feedback, LED feedback and manual control connections. Make sure it is the Jack Wabbit and has Loconet.

With that you can add touch screen controls.

 

Inobu 

 

Here is the layout of how it is connected.

 

I posted the wrong image this was my final test board.

 

 

Very nice. Great cable management. I like the use of old fashioned breadboards. I played with those a bit when I was a kid. I really like this approach.

[inobu]

Those are the same connectors used for PC power supplies. I buy them in bulk from Digi Key or McMaster Carr but you can get them from Fry's electronics too. I recommend getting the ratchet type crimp tools with dies. 

it cost more but does a better job.

 

Inobu 

[gavino200]

Actually, it's nice to see both pictures. First picture, build and design. Second picture final product. 8 switches and 8 indicators. 

 

I'm inspired by this. :)

[inobu]

Actually, it's nice to see both pictures. First picture, build and design. Second picture final product. 8 switches and 8 indicators. 

 

I'm inspired by this. :)

I built that test board so I can mount the Jack wabbit program and set the address. Once programmed I can run a visual test. When I label it I know it works for sure. If something fails I know it is wiring not programming. 

 

You wanted to know the correct way (that's subjective tho) but its closer to bullet proof.

 

Inobu

Edited January 26, 2017 by inobu

[gavino200]

I like how you think. I'm comfortable treating 'correct' and 'bullet-proof' as synonymous :)

 

I just read the PM42 manual. I think I understand it pretty well, though I'm sure I'll have some issues with it when I actually use it. I didn't realize it doesn't come with a power supply. Ordering a PS14 tonight. I'm also thinking of getting a phone cable/loconet cable making tool.

 

I was hoping, that reading the PM42 manual would tell me what gauge wire I can connect to it. I'd like to get as much of the wire I need before my components arrive in the mail, and do as much of the prep work as possible.

 

I can't tell what gauge wire is used for the output in inobu's picture, but it looks like 20 gauge to me. 

 

 

I'm trying to make sense of this statement from Sumida Crossing. See text below in blue.

 

As noted below, my ideal is to use 16 gauge wire for on-table distribution to feeders,

to minimize voltage drop (0.02 volts/foot @ 5 amps).

I could use much smaller wire (down to 22 ga, which would lose 0.08 volts/foot @ 5 amps;

that’s “in air”, even 16 is undersized for constrained spaces, but I’m not running these wires in conduit),

and need to use 20 gauge or smaller with some of my Digitrax boards due to the connectors used

(drop of 0.03 volts/foot @ 5 amps).

 

Since distribution wiring is likely to be only a few feet per table, I’m being overly conservative with 16 gauge wire.

In part this was because I’d had problems finding crimp-on terminals that fit smaller wire, although I eventually solved that.

And in part it’s because I like having a large safety margin. During construction I had some issues finding the “hook up wire” I was using in 16ga (much smaller, due to thinner insulation, than some other 16ga wire I found). I also couldn’t find 20ga wire from my usual supplier, so I use a mix of 16, 18 and 22 gauge wire for on-table distribution.

 

Realistically, the card-edge connectors on the BDL and PM42 are limited to 22 ga wire. While 18 ga can be used, it’s very hard to solder to the connector (some strands need to be removed to fit through the hole).

 

I’m addressing that by limiting the length of the wires connected to those card-edge connectors, connecting to barrier strips,

and using heavier gauge wire from there to the feeder blocks.

 

 

I'm taking this to mean:

He wasn't able to connect any wire larger than 22 ga directly to the PM42.

He didn't want to accept 22 ga for his distribution.

His workaround was to have a very short connection between the card edge connectors, and a 'barrier strip'

And then connect larger gauge wire to the 'barrier strip' to function as his 'real' distribution bus.

Because the intermediate wiring (card-edge connector to barrier strip) is short, the voltage loss would be minimal.

 

Is that what he's saying? Is this still a limitation with the PM42 card-edge connector or has Digitrax fixed this? Anyone, second this method? Or have an alternative method?

 

By 'barrier strip' does he mean one of these things?

 

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Eaton/KU4-00WCMT/?qs=1zthkiRbLn1IbrW0cLoSdQ%3D%3D&gclid=CjwKEAiA2abEBRCdx7PqqunM1CYSJABf3qvaMFEeKoaCc_VtySs6b3SOST2J87N93JuOtJLcmSUDgBoCi1vw_wcB

 

The MRC sale is going well by the way. 2 Bids. Reserve has been met. 6 days to go.

 

Next I'm going read about the BDL168/BD4 so I can try to figure out how many track-feeders to make.

Edited January 27, 2017 by gavino200

[Kiha66]

My layout was going to be DC, but after reading your progress I'm tempted to switch!  Can you still use your dc trains on the layout?  I've got a few that would be a pain to change to DCC.

[gavino200]

My layout was going to be DC, but after reading your progress I'm tempted to switch!  Can you still use your dc trains on the layout?  I've got a few that would be a pain to change to DCC.

 

Do it! Seriously, it's so much more fun. 

 

You can't use DC trains on a DCC layout. That is, unless you keep one loop on your layout DC and separate from the DCC. It's also possible to have a loop that can switch between DC and DCC, but that's fairly advanced (way above my level) and not without risks.

 

Many engines are pretty simple to convert. You could convert the simplest ones first, so you have some to run, while you research how to convert the others.

 

TCS is one of the decoder manufacturers. Their website has a conversion chart, and step by step installation instructions for most locos.

 

Here's a link:

 

https://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Customer_Info/decoders%20compatibility%20list/Kato_N-Scale.html

 

These are all KatoUSA but you can find instructions for Japanese engines online (google translate helps)

 

In general diesels and electrics are easy. Steam engines and tiny engines are difficult to very difficult. There are a lot of extremely knowledgeable people on this forum who can help you when you run into problems.

Edited January 27, 2017 by gavino200

[Ochanomizu]

My layout was going to be DC, but after reading your progress I'm tempted to switch!  Can you still use your dc trains on the layout?  I've got a few that would be a pain to change to DCC.

 

Hello,

 

Yes, you can use DC train on DCC.  The DCC standard allows ONE DC train to run on a DCC layout at a time.  I have only tried this once, with MA A0021 motor car.  It was quite noisy.  Probably because DC and AC current running through the train.  I do not recommend.  If you are comfortable dismantling your trains and handy with a soldering iron then you won't have many problems.  You will then enjoy running 2 or more trains on the same loop.

[kvp]

While some DCC systems allow one analog loco, the technology used puts unbalanced AC like current on the tracks and this unbalance could move a DC motor. It will be overvoltage as DCC voltage for N is a bit above the absolute maximum voltage for analog N scale trains. If they have any headlights, then both directions will glow and could get damaged too. Sadly some european DCC locomotives could also loose their headlights due to the DCC signal not being 50%. (this is a common manufacturing problem with some brands)

 

So generally i would not recommend it. What you can do it to wire for analog cab control and have one of your cabs DCC, while the rest as DC. This allows mixed operation with little margin for operator errors.

[inobu]

As usual what I'm going to say will counter what's on Sumida Crossing but what he is saying is true. The issue I found that adds the hidden variable is the geometry of the track. If you are using unitrack and your layout is not square all the savings on the wiring can be lost in 1 or 2 joiners. If the geometry is off the track shifts little by little. This created poor connections and voltage drops. Although unitrack is a build and storage system you can only do it so many times. As time progresses the jointers lose tension on the rails and the connection weakens. This causes the majority of voltage drops on a layout. If all of your track is NIB its not that much of an issue but it still holds true. Some times we can screw up a jointer without knowing it. When you install it there a problem waiting .

On a recent N-scale build I used flex track on a 32' of running track with only 2 feeders. I soldered the track hence no problem. I had .08 voltage drop on the farthest point from the feeder. This kinda proves the jointer theory.

So, Sumida Crossing theory is sound but you need to adhere to everything else in the build as well.

I used 18 awg wire because it sits right at the edge of the numbers. 18 gauge is good for 15 volts and supports 7 to 10 amps. That's good for N-scale. You can use higher if you like but I found it to be easier to work with.

You are correct in your interpretation but here is where your own reasoning comes into play. I chose 18 awg as I can tin and solder the wires on the PM4 and BDL connectors not through the holes but lay the wire on the connector. I make sure that I don't have cold solder joints. I use 18 awg through out the layout up to the feeders. One wire with many different colors but less headaches.

Here is a hint. I went through the same mindset as SC. I wanted every thing to spec then I realized I was wasting too much time trying to get everything perfect. So you have to make a decision on the things that are not as critical to keep the project going. if not you can get wrapped around the axle and waste time.

Remember feeders are blocks. Each color is a block. Each block is a feeder.

Any area where a train can sit is a block.

 

Track 1 is a section (1 PM4 connector) The colors are the blocks. Place isolators on each end or the blocks.

Section 1 Block 1 is the sky blue on the upper left outer track. The wine color is 1-2. Don't be concerned about buying a bunch of BDL's

You can add them later. What it important is you place the isolators on the track and pre-wire them. As long as you have the isolators on top. You can daisy chain the blocks below the layout. When you get the BDL you can unsnap the connector and add the BDL. 

 

 

I guess the tracks and distance but its close enough for this discussion. My layout is off 19 mm vertically and

2mm horizontally. I can gain 2mm by changing a 124mm track piece to a 62mm and a 64mm. 

I can get the 19mm by adding a 45.5mm on the right side and a 64 on the left side of the track. The difference is .5mm which is nothing. This is where the voltage drop issue starts. 19mm isn't much to us but 19 spread across the layout means a lot of loose jointers. These are the little issues that cause major problems when the compound themselves.

 

Inobu 

Edited January 27, 2017 by inobu

[kvp]

While adding lots of feeders is a good thing, i think that adding too many isolators is not really needed. If someone doesn't want automation, then they are not needed, so you can leave the normal joiners there and just add multiple feeders to the same large block.

 

On the other hand, if you do want automation, then the image above is seriously not enough as there are no position sensor tracks for stopping at the platforms. This means that for automation, you can have a single large block for each loop (with many feeders) and two small train head sensor tracks on each end of each station track. (or just one each in the main direction) This allows accurate stopping while the mainline is handled as a single large block. You can divide that to 3 or more blocks if you want to have more than one train on each loop, but the train stopping position detector sections are more important. That is, if you want computer automation. Otherwise, imho the whole block dectection idea is mostly useless.

[inobu]

kvp,

 

What you are saying hold true when you build small desktop layouts. People who build larger scale layouts normally look to have broader feature sets on their layout. Rewiring and rework becomes a major deterrent so planning ahead makes the growth process easier.

 

Block detection is linked to not only automation but signal systems and control panels. Part of modeling on a large scale requires more control and monitoring.

 

Digitrax has a lot of feature sets which works into automation. You won't see into a lot of what I'm saying until you actually build and play with it. That's part of why I suggest Digitrax. If someone wants low level automation then I suggest NCE.

 

Looking back you will see that Gavino isn't playing around on his build. He's done a lot so giving him info so he can pick and choose fuels his build which is a good thing.

 

Inobu

Edited January 27, 2017 by inobu

[kvp]

So you are talking about automatic block signals with manual train control? That is possible with the setup above. (will even work without a computer as it only needs the feedback signal with minimal logic) Automatic train stopping at the station won't be possible though, but getting automatic block signals right, based on occupancy detection will work as long as both the head and the tail of each train picks up power and no train is longer than the shortest detecting block. (longer trains need additional power using cars in the middle to trigger the block detection)