Questions about the "Kato" EM13 decoder

[Martijn Meerts]

I used a LokPilot Micro v4. They're readily available here, have plenty options, and well, I have the ECoS and ESU's LokProgrammer device, so going with ESU makes the most sense in my case :) I use ESU for pretty much everything, and they recently announced a new function only decoder which is really small, so that one should fit in pretty much all cab cars. I do also use Lenz decoders now and then, especially the Silver+ Mini, since that one can be set up as a function only decoder with bipolar outputs, which is great for especially MicroAce cab cars, since they sometimes use multi-color LEDs.

 

With regards to the wheels, I'll replace them 1 by 1, so all the drive rods etc. should not get messed up. But you never know :)

[gavino200]

 

With regards to the wheels, I'll replace them 1 by 1, so all the drive rods etc. should not get messed up. But you never know :)

 

Ah, yes that would be the smart way to do it. I took them all out at the same time and rebuilt, one by one. I had to draw a pretty good diagram and arrange the parts carefully to do it. I forgot to note the position of that little piston connecting rod, though. 

 

I'll do it the sensible way next time. :)

Edited January 18, 2017 by gavino200

[gavino200]

I managed to pick up a  drawbar today. Next up, Morning Daylight with sound. Just have to pick up a suitable decoder.

 

I have the cars all running smoothly. They go through all parts of the track at any speed with no derailment. They're on the yard waiting for the GS-4 to return.

[Martijn Meerts]

Got my replacement wheels, only replaced the single driven wheel so far, and the train does run better, but still not as smooth as I'd want it to. Will replace the other wheels when I get some time.

[gavino200]

Have any of you guys measured the stall current of the GS-4? Given how sensitive the wheelset can be, I'm reluctant to put downward pressure on the loco to force a stall. 

 

According to this article the stall Amps are .33. That seems low.

 

I notice that the EM13 peak total current listed in the motor decoder sticky thread table is 1.5amp, while many others have 2amp limits.

 

Anyone believe .33 for a GS-4 stall amp? Anyone measure it themselves? 

 

I'm still deciding on sound vs. motor only. There's no rush as I'm currently rewiring my layout. But would it be wiser to choose a decoder with a higher peak current limit for this engine even if I decide not to go with sound?

[Martijn Meerts]

Can't say I've ever measured it, but I have installed decoders in 40 year old locomotives which have motors which likely have a much higher stall current than modern motors, and I've never had any issues.

 

I've found that Kato and Tomix especially use very little current while running though, so .33 amps doesn't sound unreasonable.

[kvp]

1.5 amps is for H0 scale. Most N scale decoders are in the 0.5 to 1.0 amps range. 0.33 amps for a locomotive that has rather sensitive wheels and an efficient motor seems fairly normal. For this to happen, the motor should have a resistivity of around 36 ohms between its two brushes.

[gavino200]

On 1/15/2017 at 1:04 AM, inobu said:

Gavino,

I could not resist jumping in on the GS4 so I picked up two fried units. These things were a mess not sure what happened with Kato on this one. I got one that has the spacers and on without. These things got so hot the frame turned blue.




I saw the one fix with the caption tape but thought it would fail over time. So I tried two methods. One hard and one easy. One works with the spacers and the other is without the spacers but its harder.

Easy.

This one is for the spacers. The spacers address the lateral movement but does not address the vertical. The GS4 is tall therefore shifts its weight on curved. This shift causes the weight to load and unload on the read last wheel. That wheel has an unsupported pickup that act as a shock. The problem is it has too much travel and causes the wheel to bottom out on the frame causing the short. This happens of and on depending on the track layout.

 

Fix

The last wheel has an unsupported pickup under it. This acts as a shock but it bottoms outs and cause the wheel to short on the frame. I placed a shim under the pickup to reduce the wheel travel. Now the spacers addresses the lateral issue and the shim addresses the vertical issue. This works for the spacer version.

 

 

the harder method is machining the motor mount a thousands smaller that the lower.




this prevents the lateral short and the shim address the verticals.

I'm going to install a decoder but in going to hard wire it in. I post pacts.

Inobu.

I'll edit the pic. Stupid iPhone.

 

Hey Inobu. Any chance you could repost the pictures that went with this?

 

I finally got around to picking this up again. Below are pictures of my unassembled GS-4 chassis. On the right profile, there are marks from the wheelset rubbing against the frame. Does that fit with what you're talking about?

 

I found this loco extremely difficult to disassemble. I'm sure I haven't broken anything, but it's going to be a nightmare to put back together again.

 

Right profile

 

 

Left profile

 

[inobu]

 

That is a plastic shim from .30 PET (same material found in plastic packaging)

 

there is too much travel or rebound in the rear axle. The shim keeps the last drive wheel from touching the frame but allows enough travel

that it can absorb any track imperfections.

 

Getting those moons lined up is a nightmare.

 

Inobu

 

[gavino200]

1 hour ago, inobu said:

 

That is a plastic shim from .30 PET (same material found in plastic packaging)

 

there is too much travel or rebound in the rear axle. The shim keeps the last drive wheel from touching the frame but allows enough travel

that it can absorb any track imperfections.

 

Getting those moons lined up is a nightmare.

 

Inobu

 

 

 

Thanks Inobu. Buyt I can't see much detail in the picuture. Where exactly are the shims? Are you using the Kato shims or ones you made? What shape are they? What did you source the plastic from? Also, did you have to machine the frame itself? If so, how did you do it?

 

My rear wheel has been grinding into the frame. You can see the marks. Is that what we're talking about or do I need to look for marks in the upper frame?

 

[inobu]

The shim is the bluish plastic square. You can see is the shim is wide enough it will keep the wheels from rubbing against the frame. It also stop the shorting on the motor mount.

 

The rear wheel will bottom out and touch the upper uni-frame.

 

You can see the bluing from the heat. In this picture you can see where I machined out the frame

but thats not needed. The shim on the lower frame will prevent the wheel from upward touching the motor frame. The concept is

like the upside down shocks that the Suzuki GSXR had.

 

 

When the shim is placed on the copper pickups. It still has travel just not a much. This prevents the rebound of the wheel

 

Inobu

 

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by inobu

[gavino200]

Ok. I'm getting the idea. I can see faint wheel traces on my upper frame btw, so I'm pretty sure this has been happening.

 

One or two more questions though, if you don't mind.

 

The wheel recess is approx rectangular shaped. There are two copper strips acting as springs. There is what is approximately a square between the two strips where I see blue color in your picture.

 

Is your shim square and between the two copper strips? Or is it rectangular and superficial to the two copper strips, bridging the gap between them.

 

What did you make your shim out of, and how thick is it?

What did you use to fix it in place?

 

I was very reluctant to disassemble this loco to this extent - but I really had no choice. I'm sure it'll be a major task getting it back together. Do you mind if I pick your brains a bit if I have difficulty with reassembly?

[inobu]

The heat generation is from the rear wheel. See the bluing and heat transfer to the top motor frame.

The current draw burned the light board.

[inobu]

42 minutes ago, inobu said:

The shim is the bluish plastic square. You can see is the shim is wide enough it will keep the wheels from rubbing against the frame. It also stop the shorting on the motor mount.

 

 

The rear wheel will bottom out and touch the upper uni-frame.

 

You can see the bluing from the heat. In this picture you can see where I machined out the frame

but thats not needed. The shim on the lower frame will prevent the wheel from upward touching the motor frame. The concept is

like the upside down shocks that the Suzuki GSXR had.

 

 

When the shim is placed on the copper pickups. It still has travel just not a much. This prevents the overall of the wheel

 

Inobu

 

 

 

 

Yes the rectangle bluish plastic it like....... You know when you buy something packaged in clear plastic and you need to cut it open in frustration. That's the plastic I used. its .03" thick. 

 

Also the train I got came from a larger radius track. Because of that I don't have a lot of side wear. Tracks with small radius curves will cause the wheels to pull sideways amplifying the problem.

 

Inobu

 

 

[gavino200]

10 minutes ago, inobu said:

 

11 minutes ago, inobu said:

Yes the rectangle bluish plastic it like....... You know when you buy something packaged in clear plastic and you need to cut it open in frustration. That's the plastic I used. its .03" thick. 

 

Also the train I got came from a larger radius track. Because of that I don't have a lot of side wear. Tracks with small radius curves will cause the wheels to pull sideways amplifying the problem.

 

Inobu

 

 

 

 

Thanks. I like the plastic description. That's pretty funny.

 

Yes, my first layout had tight turns. That's not a problem anymore. 

 

I'm curious, did you end up going with sound? Or did you stick with the EM-13?

[inobu]

6 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

 

 

Thanks. I like the plastic description. That's pretty funny.

 

Yes, my first layout had tight turns. That's not a problem anymore. 

 

I'm curious, did you end up going with sound? Or did you stick with the EM-13?

 

 I tried sound but had problems. Taking the weight out of the tender for more space made it too light. I left for a later time as I thought something would come up and it has recently. I think the Key is Tungsten. Its density is really high 

and may be able to free up enough space. I got a FEF-3 with a ESU in it and I thinking that it pretty much the same thing as the GS-4. That may be the way to go. Let me know what you do and I'll do the same. 

 

Inobu

 

Funny in the beginning I could care less about a GS-4 now I see why people like it so much.

 

 

 

[gavino200]

On 11/23/2017 at 6:23 PM, inobu said:

 

 

Getting those moons lined up is a nightmare.

 

Inobu

 

 

Ok. Now I see what you mean. I had the whole thing reassembled. Now I see that I have to separate the upper and lower frames again in order to get the "moons" in without damaging them.

 

This loco is insane (pun noticed). Really, there's nothing intuitive about it. It's either the dumbest or most genius design I've ever seen. I'll decide after and if I get this thing back together again.

[inobu]

4 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

 

Ok. Now I see what you mean. I had the whole thing reassembled. Now I see that I have to separate the upper and lower frames again in order to get the "moons" in without damaging them.

 

This loco is insane (pun noticed). Really, there's nothing intuitive about it. It's either the dumbest or most genius design I've ever seen. I'll decide after and if I get this thing back together again.

You will know its lined up when it rolls freely to a stop.

 

Inobu

 

5-1-5-0 someone call the po-po.. this train is loco

 

[gavino200]

This took me forever.

 

I finally got the thing back together with the shim in place and tested it in DC. Then I put in the loksound micro select I've been saving for it. There's actually plenty of room. This is the basic setup (below). Except that I had to remove the baffle. The speaker is just fixed magnetically to the tender weight. Strangely that gives better sound than the baffle did. It must be that direct sound conduction phenomenon that the Tomix platform sound uses. I also put a red rear LED in which 

I like. I didn't bother to wire the front lightboard to the the decoder. I'm just too exhausted.

 

 

There's still a problem. One of those tiny stud/rivet things that hold the wheel bars together is loose. It came undone about three times. Luckily I found it each time, which is a small miracle. My local train guy told be about this ages ago. He has a trick where he squeezes them lenthwise in a pliers a bit, to sort of compress and "mushroom" it a bit. That's the term he used. I thought of trying this, but chickened out. I held the thing in a pliers, but I didn't have a good feeling about it. I'm going to take it to him and ask him to show me how. 

 

I also took out the Morning Daylight car set to see if it ran ok now. I've removed the section of track that it used to have most trouble with. It still sucks. I think I'll just get rid of the double and tripple cars, and replace them with singles. That way I'll be able to keep them in a  kato bookshelf case. I'll have to switch them all to regular Kato couplers. The special 'close couplers' that come this this set are completely unreliable.

 

I'm so close to finishing this project!!

Edited November 26, 2017 by gavino200

[Kiha66]

What radius are you running the train on?  What seems to be the problem with the combined cars?  If you do decide to switch for single cars, I believe kato or concor made a single car daylight set a few years back.  Nice job on the install!  

Edited November 26, 2017 by Kiha66

[gavino200]

11 minutes ago, Kiha66 said:

What radius are you running the train on?  What seems to be the problem with the combined cars?  If you do decide to switch for single cars, I believe kato or concor made a single car daylight set a few years back.  Nice job on the install!  

 

Thanks!

 

I don't have any tight radii. Off hand I don't know the numbers. I'll give this one last exhaustive trial soon. I'll give you the details then. The issues are derailment and uncoupling. 

 

If I can't get them to work, you're welcome to them. Maybe they'll work on your layout.

[Kiha66]

Sorry to hear that, I have a spare set of kinematic couplers I got if you want to see if that would help.   I think one of the members of my home club may have the old single car set, I can see if he would be interested in trading them next time I'm back from university, if I it turns out that the kato set works on the larger curves of the club layout.

[gavino200]

17 hours ago, Kiha66 said:

Sorry to hear that, I have a spare set of kinematic couplers I got if you want to see if that would help.   I think one of the members of my home club may have the old single car set, I can see if he would be interested in trading them next time I'm back from university, if I it turns out that the kato set works on the larger curves of the club layout.

 

I gave the five single cars a good run tonight. They did ok with no de-coupling. Maybe it was a fluke the other day, and I was impatient. I've changed the kinematic couplers out before. Trucks too. I'll keep doing this if there's only an occasional fault. But if they prove to be unreliable I'll switch them all out. 

 

Do you mean the 4 car add-on set? Otherwise I didn't know there was ever a single car set. I just ordered the add-on set. I saw some Kato single cars at my local train guy's, the last time I was there. I wasn't interested then, as I wasn't sure I would ever get the loco back together. If they're still there tomorrow I'll pick one up to get me to a 10 car set.

 

I'm starting to think my double and triple cars are just jacked up. I bought them second hand and they've never worked for me. My track isn't perfect but it's pretty good and absolutely no other piece of rolling stock has problems. Also, I was looking at YouTube videos of the Daylight. This one below in particular. There are two guys installing LEDs and changing couplers. What's interesting to me is that the center trucks stay in place when they lift the unit and even when they take it apart. 

 

On my double and triple, the center trucks fall off as soon as you lift the unit. I've gone to great pains to make sure that they're clipped in right. And, like I say, I've tried new trucks. I'm starting to suspect that someone sold me a set that had been damaged. 

 

 

 

So this is the plan.

 

1. Get the GS-4 running.

2. Use the 4-car add-on and another single to get up to 10 cars.

3. Enjoy the freekin' train for the first time ever.

4. Next year, pick up a brand new double and try it out.

If the double works on my layout, then

5. Take my double and triple completely apart, find the problem, and fix it.

6. Enjoy super long Daylight train.

Edited November 27, 2017 by gavino200

[gavino200]

I got the train running. The loco runs well. It hauls the 10 car set well but loses about a third of it's speed on the incline. I realize the red reverse light makes no sense, but I like it. 

 

I found the problem with the double and triple cars. The triple car had the brackets that hold the truck to the body turned the wrong way, so the wasn't able to slide back and forth during cornering like they're designed to. The double car had this problem. Plus a bend in the copper contacts causing it to click out of place during cornering. I haven't fixed the copper on the double yet, but I bought a new one when I was at the train store. The YouTube video below from KatoUsa was helpful.

 

When I fix my original double car and receive the four car add-on, I'll have a 16 car set. I'll be interesting to see if the GS-4 can haul that lot up the hill. I may have to buy it a diesel B-unit to help.

 

Some pics. I'm considering this project officially closed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2017 by gavino200