Questions about the "Kato" EM13 decoder

[gavino200]

Pretty sure the drive rods aren't supposed to look like they do in this picture :)

 

lol. Nope. Are the rods still in alignment on the other side? If so, I bet one of the wheels twisted on the axle. If both are still quartered you may just have to turn that set of wheels a bit to get it back in line.

 

BTW I just learned that word "quartered" watching a episode of 'The Reassembler' where the host put together an 70's Hornby train set. It means that the wheels on each side of the axle should be exactly 90 degrees out of sync. If your are not 90 degrees off then one of your wheels rotated independently on the axle.

 

This is how it should run:

 

https://www.facebook.com/officialkatousainc

 

This is from the KatoUSA facebook page. Mine runs just like this. (When working)

[gavino200]

The Morning Daylight car set as well is giving me some issues, especially the 3-part articulated car likes to derail after a curve, because it doesn't straighten out like it should.

 

I've just finished looking at my 3 car set. I think I've worked out the problem. I'd be interested in whether it's the same with yours.

 

I check all the axles and changed some of the trucks. 

 

I checked the articulations. They do seem a little 'clicky' but only at an angle that is greater than what is reached at the time of derailment.

 

On my track the derailment is consistent and predictable. It's always the last truck - a fixed truck. Not an articulation 'floating truck'. It happens in two situations. One is as the train turns through a gentle S. The other is as it comes off a super-elevated section.

 

I think I know why it happens. I noticed that the triple car has an interesting mechanism that makes the car bank slightly on it's trucks as it corners.

 

The S-turn cause the car to bank in two directions which lifts the last truck off the rail. 

 

I think a similar mechanism occurs as the super-el transitions to level track. The front is forced straight while the back is still trying to bank, causing a derailment. 

 

I don't have any other trains or cars that have trouble on these tracks. The triple car derails at exactly these points and no others.

 

For now I'm retiring it. I might pick up one of these when I get the engine back on line.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KATO-N-SCALE-106-029-SOUTHERN-PACIFIC-DAYLIGHT-SMOOTH-SIDE-4-PASSENGER-CAR-SET-/291984881943?hash=item43fba7b917:g:ZA0AAOSwA3dYY~Qf

Edited January 12, 2017 by gavino200

[Martijn Meerts]

Haven't checked both sides yet, was getting to dark when I took the picture to really see it well. But the GS-4 has only 1 axle which is driven by the motor, the other axles are driven by the rods. If the driven axle isn't quartered anymore, I'll need a new set of wheels, considering that would mean the axle has cracked. This seems to be a common problem as well, there are GS-4's that come with cracked axles right out of the box. The thing is, Kato apparently tried some feature that would make it impossible for the wheels on an axle to become un-quartered, but that feature apparently also cause axles to crack.

 

As for the 3-part articulated car, if I remember right mine did indeed derail in an S-curve, but it was a very wide S-curve, and it derailed somewhere in the middle, not at the ends. I'll have to test it again at some point, but not in that much of a hurry really :)

[kvp]

The trouble with the end bogies might be that they are set too tight. Imho they should wobble freely on the main pin when lifted and have a bit of a vertical play. Also, the S curve should not have any superelevation in it as many other trains have problems with that.

[Martijn Meerts]

The S-curve I had was a temporary one, so that might have caused it.

 

Anyway, just took my GS-4 apart, took the driven axle out, and turns out I do indeed have a broken axle. If I hold 1 wheel, I can freely rotate the other one. So looks like I'll be looking for a place to order replacement wheels/axles.

[gavino200]

The S-curve I had was a temporary one, so that might have caused it.

 

Anyway, just took my GS-4 apart, took the driven axle out, and turns out I do indeed have a broken axle. If I hold 1 wheel, I can freely rotate the other one. So looks like I'll be looking for a place to order replacement wheels/axles.

 

 

That's exactly how mine was. "Broken axle" sounds so unlikely until you remove them and see how they're actually constructed. The 'axle' itself is fine. It's just a small metal bar glued into plastic wheel hubs. All that happens is that the glue breaks and the wheels spin on the axle.

 

The wobbly wheel straight out of the packet are a different issue, and is easily fixed. That's caused by the plastic wheels not being properly snapped into the outside metal wheel rim. It's not hard to do. I guess it would be a problem if you already installed them without noticing. Fortunately, I checked.

[gavino200]

 

 

As for the 3-part articulated car, if I remember right mine did indeed derail in an S-curve, but it was a very wide S-curve, and it derailed somewhere in the middle, not at the ends. I'll have to test it again at some point, but not in that much of a hurry really :)

 

That's exactly where mine derails. The last truck derails just as it's coming off the first curve of the S, while the forward trucks are already on the opposite curve. My S is also very large radius.

 

The only other place it has a problem is coming off superelevated curves. I would just take out the S, if it weren't for the second issue.

Edited January 12, 2017 by gavino200

[gavino200]

The trouble with the end bogies might be that they are set too tight. Imho they should wobble freely on the main pin when lifted and have a bit of a vertical play. Also, the S curve should not have any superelevation in it as many other trains have problems with that.

 

I just overhauled the car and the trucks seem loose. I'll try it once more and make the bogies as loose as they can possibly be.

 

The S curve is flat. No superelevated curves.

 

The superel tracks are going through the correct transition curve piece to straight double viaduct. 

 

I think the problem comes from having such a long tilting car. These are just it's limitations. 

 

I'll let you know what I find when I test it again.

[Martijn Meerts]

Actually, it's really the axle that's broken in this case.. For the GS-4, Kato came up with the idea to have this little ridge on the metal pin that goes into the plastic axle so that the axle would never get un-quartered. Problem is, the axle has a bit of a weak spot (from the molding I believe), and if that little ridge gets inserted exactly at that weak spot, the axle will crack. It's hardly visible, but it's there.

 

The replacement wheel set uses hexagonal axles I believe, so once the wheels go on and are quartered, it's pretty much impossible to ruin them unless you take the wheel off.

 

Either way, I ordered a set of replacement wheels from Kato USA, so hopefully they'll arrive in not too long, and hopefully that'll fix the loco at least.

[gavino200]

Actually, it's really the axle that's broken in this case.. For the GS-4, Kato came up with the idea to have this little ridge on the metal pin that goes into the plastic axle so that the axle would never get un-quartered. Problem is, the axle has a bit of a weak spot (from the molding I believe), and if that little ridge gets inserted exactly at that weak spot, the axle will crack. It's hardly visible, but it's there.

 

The replacement wheel set uses hexagonal axles I believe, so once the wheels go on and are quartered, it's pretty much impossible to ruin them unless you take the wheel off.

 

Either way, I ordered a set of replacement wheels from Kato USA, so hopefully they'll arrive in not too long, and hopefully that'll fix the loco at least.

 

 

I took a look at the wheels. You're right. it's not as I thought/remembered. It's the center point of the axle and not the hub that is the problem. 

 

I see the ridge you're talking about. It's really tiny.

 

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p392/Bollox101/20170112_164704_zpscx6g6k4t.jpg

Edited January 12, 2017 by gavino200

[gavino200]

The trouble with the end bogies might be that they are set too tight. Imho they should wobble freely on the main pin when lifted and have a bit of a vertical play. Also, the S curve should not have any superelevation in it as many other trains have problems with that.

 

 

Thanks for encouraging me to take another look at it. I found the problem. There was a tiny piece of plastic broken off the truck. In the picture below, if you look at the plastic circle that fits around the post on the carriage underside one little prong has been truncated. I swapped it out and not the triple car is working.

 

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p392/Bollox101/Truck%20problem_zpskr75omjf.jpg

 

There's still a tendency for a few of the cars to uncouple at higher speeds. But that's easily solved by switching out the coupling rods.

[inobu]

Gavino,

I could not resist jumping in on the GS4 so I picked up two fried units. These things were a mess not sure what happened with Kato on this one. I got one that has the spacers and on without. These things got so hot the frame turned blue.




I saw the one fix with the caption tape but thought it would fail over time. So I tried two methods. One hard and one easy. One works with the spacers and the other is without the spacers but its harder.

Easy.

This one is for the spacers. The spacers address the lateral movement but does not address the vertical. The GS4 is tall therefore shifts its weight on curved. This shift causes the weight to load and unload on the read last wheel. That wheel has an unsupported pickup that act as a shock. The problem is it has too much travel and causes the wheel to bottom out on the frame causing the short. This happens of and on depending on the track layout.

Fix

The last wheel has an unsupported pickup under it. This acts as a shock but it bottoms outs and cause the wheel to short on the frame. I placed a shim under the pickup to reduce the wheel travel. Now the spacers addresses the lateral issue and the shim addresses the vertical issue. This works for the spacer version.

 

the harder method is machining the motor mount a thousands smaller that the lower.




this prevents the lateral short and the shim address the verticals.

I'm going to install a decoder but in going to hard wire it in. I post pacts.

Inobu.

I'll edit the pic. Stupid iPhone.

Edited December 29, 2023 by inobu

[gavino200]

Gavino,

 

I could not resist jumping in on the GS4 so I picked up two fried units. These things were a mess not sure what happened with Kato on this one. I got one that has the spacers and on without. These things got so hot the frame turned blue.

 

 

 

 

I saw the one fix with the caption tape but thought it would fail over time. So I tried two methods. One hard and one easy. One works with the spacers and the other is without the spacers but its harder.

 

Easy.

 

This one is for the spacers. The spacers address the lateral movement but does not address the vertical. The GS4 is tall therefore shifts its weight on curved. This shift causes the weight to load and unload on the read last wheel. That wheel has an unsupported pickup that act as a shock. The problem is it has too much travel and causes the wheel to bottom out on the frame causing the short. This happens of and on depending on the track layout.

 

Fix

 

The last wheel has an unsupported pickup under it. This acts as a shock but it bottoms outs and cause the wheel to short on the frame. I placed a shim under the pickup to reduce the wheel travel. Now the spacers addresses the lateral issue and the shim addresses the vertical issue. This works for the spacer version.

 

 

 

the harder method is machining the motor mount a thousands smaller that the lower.

 

this prevents the lateral short and the shim address the verticals.

 

I'm going to install a decoder but in going to hard wire it in. I post pacts.

 

Inobu.

 

I'll edit the pic. Stupid iPhone.

 

What a great idea. I hadn't considered this as an opportunity. It would be fun to have two GS-4s to pull the full Daylight train. I'm might have a look for a fried unit myself when I finish my current projects.

 

Are both of your fried engines first release locos?

 

Can you post a picture of the shims you use? How did you make them? Are you machining the body yourself, or having someone do it? What do you use?

 

What decoder are you planning to install? Sound?

Edited January 15, 2017 by gavino200

[inobu]

Both are first release and one was fried and one was toasted. As you can tell in the images the frames turned blue they got so hot. 

 

• I fixed the images and posted a new image.
• I machined them myself but it can be done by hand. I used a .4 inch round stone bit because it was pretty close to the wells diameters.
• I installed a Digitrax DZ125 to test out the fix. Better to lose it than a full on sound decoder.

 

So far the first one its fine and I have been running it back and forth with no problems. I have the second on running but the light board is gone. That one is the machines one so I"ll install the sound decoder in it.

I have a Digitrax SDXH166D that I will try. Its a little big but I think I can get it in. We'll see

 

I never would expect them to be so problematic but it was fun getting them going. 

 

Thanks, Lets see what else you will get into.

 

 

Inobu

[gavino200]

Both are first release and one was fried and one was toasted. As you can tell in the images the frames turned blue they got so hot. 

 

• I fixed the images and posted a new image.
• I machined them myself but it can be done by hand. I used a .4 inch round stone bit because it was pretty close to the wells diameters.
• I installed a Digitrax DZ125 to test out the fix. Better to lose it than a full on sound decoder.

 

So far the first one its fine and I have been running it back and forth with no problems. I have the second on running but the light board is gone. That one is the machines one so I"ll install the sound decoder in it.

I have a Digitrax SDXH166D that I will try. Its a little big but I think I can get it in. We'll see

 

I never would expect them to be so problematic but it was fun getting them going. 

 

Thanks, Lets see what else you will get into.

 

 

Inobu

 

Thanks for sharing. It sounds like fun. How did you find them?

Edited January 16, 2017 by gavino200

[Martijn Meerts]

Other than that mine ran terrible (because of the broken axle) I haven't actually had any issues with the loco getting hot or causing a short. Even with the broken axle, it pulled all 18 Morning Daylight cars.

 

I have new wheels on the way, so will be interesting to see if I came across any other issues once the new wheels are in place. It's definitely not Kato's best locomotive though. At least the learned from it, since the FEF-3 is supposed to be really good :)

[inobu]

It one of those anomalies that took a while to play out. It appears that the first release was really bad. Depending on the type of layout and its radius the problem could be skewed or masked. If the layout had tight and long turns the wheels would short. That's when the heat build up would occur. The heat could dissipate on the long straights skewing the problem again. As guys installed Decoders the problem would surface instantanously. Like in Gavinos case.

 

Kato remedied the problem with the spacers but that was for the DC crowd. As the decodes shrunk and conversions started the problem appeared to resurfaced. It's funny you can see the posts in the forums that created the time line. What's odd is the tender has the rear light but no led components to make it functional. It like it was unfinished.

 

I guess the 5th release is due this March it will be interesting to see what inside.

 

Inobu

[gavino200]

 As guys installed Decoders the problem would surface instantanously. Like in Gavinos case.

 

 

Inobu

 

It turns out that mine wasn't first the first run after all - assuming the engine belongs with the box it came in. Ebay. My issue seems to be that the decoder fried from running the motor with the wheels locked. It runs perfectly in DC now. If it blows again with a decoder rethink the situation again.

[inobu]

Based on your point #2 I would think its the decoder install. If it failed so quickly. It's just guessing on my part

 

There are a number of areas that could short out so Be careful

 

inobu

[gavino200]

Based on your point #2 I would think its the decoder install. If it failed so quickly. It's just guessing on my part

 

There are a number of areas that could short out so Be careful

 

inobu

 

The install seems pretty simple. I'll think it through before doing it again. You lay the 13 in its slot, chip side up, over the trup pickup strips. The L shaped copper strips over topside of the decoder 'legs', and also over the ends of the drawbar. Are there any particular pitfalls that you have seen?

 

 

I'll also check it on the program track before running it. I wish I could find a new draw bar. Mine seems ok, but it has taken a bashing, and those things are fairly flimsy. 

[inobu]

You have to test for shorts between the top and bottom frames. Also check the travel of the rear wheels. If it touches the top frame.

Watch out for the lighting board. It gets its power from the lower frame.

 

Also there is a spring under the front pilot truck. If someone used the wrong spring it can work its way up to the bottom frame and short the two sides.

 

Like you said the draw bars are problematic. When you inscert the half moons if that a open too wide it flexes the rods where they short each other.

 

Now that mine passed the basic decoder test I'm working on the sound decoder. I have mine torn apart again.

 

When I get it done I'll start another thread and post it.

 

Inobu

 

For testing I used these philmore 500 test leads.

[gavino200]

You have to test for shorts between the top and bottom frames. Also check the travel of the rear wheels. If it touches the top frame.

Watch out for the lighting board. It gets its power from the lower frame.

 

Also there is a spring under the front pilot truck. If someone used the wrong spring it can work its way up to the bottom frame and short the two sides.

 

Like you said the draw bars are problematic. When you inscert the half moons if that a open too wide it flexes the rods where they short each other.

 

Now that mine passed the basic decoder test I'm working on the sound decoder. I have mine torn apart again.

 

When I get it done I'll start another thread and post it.

 

Inobu

 

For testing I used these philmore 500 test leads.

 

 

Thanks. I ordered a set of philmore leads. I'll refer your post and this thead when my decoder arrives and I have the engine open again. I may have a few questions. I'm going to test it thoroughly before I chance zapping another decoder.

 

 

BTW, I would love to know how/where you got your two fried GS4s. 

Edited January 17, 2017 by gavino200

[gavino200]

Apparantly, there will be more drawbars available in March, when the new release comes out. I'm going to wait until then and replace mine. I think I'll go to sound as well. I just tried sound for the first time and I love it. It's much louder than I expected. 

 

In the meantime I'm looking for a fried unit to do in tandem.

[Martijn Meerts]

I went with a hard wired ESU decoder for my GS4, I don't like the very limited feature set of the Kato motor decoder, I want some more control over the motor settings. I've had trains that run pretty bad, but because of the fine tuning settings in the more advanced decoders, you can still get it to run really well.

 

The replacement wheels I ordered should be getting to me hopefully this week, unless customs decides to be a pain and keep them for 2 weeks, which wouldn't be the first time :D

[gavino200]

I went with a hard wired ESU decoder for my GS4, I don't like the very limited feature set of the Kato motor decoder, I want some more control over the motor settings. I've had trains that run pretty bad, but because of the fine tuning settings in the more advanced decoders, you can still get it to run really well.

 

The replacement wheels I ordered should be getting to me hopefully this week, unless customs decides to be a pain and keep them for 2 weeks, which wouldn't be the first time :D

 

What decoder did you choose? While I'm leaning toward sound, I haven't decided what to put into my GS4. I've ordered an EM13 but I can use that for that ridiculously priced EVA Shinkansen that I couldn't resist pre-ordering.

 

Good luck with the wheel project. Pay close attention to the position of this part (below) on each side. There are two possible positions. It need to point toward the counterweight side of the wheel. If they aren't right the wheels will lock. That's where I messed up on my first attempt.

 

Edited January 18, 2017 by gavino200