JNR/JR Asama color

[velotrain]

I ordered the Kato Series 189 J.N.R. Limited Express Color `Asama` (Add-On 7-Car Set) from HS.  However, to my eyes what I received does not look like what they show on their site - which may be the original 2008 release, or what I interpret as the Asama color. 

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10066597

 

I take the Asama red to be quite bright, such as what is generally regarded as a crimson, while the red in the set I got is much darker and duller, closer to a maroon.  Substituted into the Kato set is a Tomix KiHa 55, which stands out both for the brighter red, as well as other reasons.  I can't state that the KiHa's painted in this similar scheme were intended to be Asama color, or if the red was intentionally brightened on the KiHa's and/or the Tomix model.

 

 

 

 

When I search for Asama color, I get some hits of a white and green scheme, so don't know if the concept of what constituted Asama changed at some point (JNR vs. JR?).  I'm wondering if anyone here has an earlier version of this set, and if the red color is more consistent with what HS shows on their site, or what I received?

 

The later JR 481/483/85 series may have been painted in a darker red than the earlier cars in this service, but this largely seems to be based on the light the photo was taken in.  My issue here is the feeling that what I received is not what I thought I ordered, based on the representation at the HS site.  Some may claim this is just a normal variation in production, but I do plan to request a return from HS - taking a hit on the postage.

 

 

 

 

[TheNicofabi]

Hmm... I have to admit i dont have an older Add-On Set but to me both your pic and the one on HS look very similar... There isnt any difference in the Red and from what i've seen mostly the Red is how it usually does look on them... but then again i cant tell as I dont have the set so its just my view on this...

[velotrain]

Are you able to tell the difference between the Kato red and the Tomix red?

[ToniBabelony]

There is a difference in reds on the Tomix and Kato models, however these are correct. JNR used different reds on DMU Express (red no. 11) and EMU Ltd. Express (red no. 2) trains. It's described more in detail on this Wikipedia page. I tested my colour recognition multiple times with different tests and came out with a 100% result each time, so I have absolute confidence in this ;)

[railsquid]

I ordered the Kato Series 189 J.N.R. Limited Express Color `Asama` (Add-On 7-Car Set) from HS.  However, to my eyes what I received does not look like what they show on their site - which may be the original 2008 release, or what I interpret as the Asama color. 

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10066597

 

I take the Asama red to be quite bright, such as what is generally regarded as a crimson, while the red in the set I got is much darker and duller, closer to a maroon.  Substituted into the Kato set is a Tomix KiHa 55, which stands out both for the brighter red, as well as other reasons.  I can't state that the KiHa's painted in this similar scheme were intended to be Asama color, or if the red was intentionally brightened on the KiHa's and/or the Tomix model.

 

 

 

 

When I search for Asama color, I get some hits of a white and green scheme, so don't know if the concept of what constituted Asama changed at some point (JNR vs. JR?).

 

What's known as "Asama colour" (as opposed to the generic JNR express colour of your set) is that green/white scheme, introduced early in the JR era together with an overhaul of the sets (Japanese Wikipedia reference)

[miyakoji]

railsquid your link didn't quite work for me.

 

velotrain, this is the JR East-era Asama livery: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%95%E3%82%A1%E3%82%A4%E3%83%AB:189_N102_Myoko_20081122.jpg although it's on Myoko service there

Edited December 21, 2016 by miyakoji

[velotrain]

I gather that there's JNR vs. JR Asama colors, which explains the two different combinations over time, although some more recent stock has had the original colors applied.  The blue and white Nagano Shinkansen is apparently also called Asama, so it would seem to be a widely applied term.  Some sites (including HS) call the original color combo Asama vs. "generic express", so I'll stick with that.

 

 

Thanks for the info and the link Toni - most helpful.

 

I've always been curious about "grape" - the first two look brown-black to me, and I only see maybe a faint hint of purple in #3 - am I interpreting grape too literally?  Does is somehow actually mean a certain shade of brown in Japan?

 

 

What do you think of this set?

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/image/10237062/20/4

 

It looks like more of what I'm after, although that may just be how the images were processed, as the cars look darker overall in the last two images. If the color difference is a question of EMU vs. DMU instead of Kato vs. Tomix, then I'd probably just be disappointed again.

 

Otherwise, I guess I'll have to go with DMUs, which doesn't really fit my needs.  Although, I could strip most of the underbody equipment (from these expensive Tomix unpowered cars), and turn them into pure coaches, which is what I was after in the first place - until I found out they didn't exist.

 

 

Ever since MicroAce released their Seibu E31 sets about a year ago, I've been thinking that the paint scheme looks a lot like the series 183-189 (or 485, etc.) Limited Express Asama cars - both the colors, and the relative positions of the bands.  Although I was first attracted to the E31 series engine, the E851 is much more elegant and looks more like a fast passenger engine.  This is the pairing I'm interested in.  Even though these combinations aren't prototypical, I find them quite handsome, and as the man said - "It's my railroad".  I trust you can see why the shade or red is so important to me.

 

 

 

 

[katoftw]

Different colours with different lighting.  The colours could be the same, but the lighting when the photo was taken completely changes the colour shading.  Probably no help in the scheme of things.  But you'll never match colours using internet pictures alone.

Edited December 21, 2016 by katoftw

[railsquid]

I gather that there's JNR vs. JR Asama colors, which explains the two different combinations over time, although some more recent stock has had the original colors applied.  The blue and white Nagano Shinkansen is apparently also called Asama, so it would seem to be a widely applied term.  Some sites (including HS) call the original color combo Asama vs. "generic express", so I'll stick with that.

 

"Asama" is the name of an express service between Tokyo and Nagano, which has been operated by a variety of stock over the years. "Asama colour" is the distinctive livery (replacing the generic JNR express livery) applied by JR to the 183s upgraded after 1987 specifically for the Asama service (though the trains were probably later cascaded to other services after the Nagano Shinkansen opened).

[ToniBabelony]

Seibu's electric have 'scarlet' red, similar to the JNR 'Red no. 11', though I can't confirm it's the exact same. The creme colour on the Seibu electrics is however called 'Ivory', which could be similar to the JNR 'Creme no. 9', which was used for thin lines on JNR 20 Series passenger coaches.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Kabutoni

[velotrain]

Yes, I did notice that the Seibu color is a bit paler, but felt that if I could get a decent match on the red then I would live with that.

 

However, to my eyes there's far too much yellow for it to be an "ivory", which I believe is generally considered an off-white.  Just checked, and . . .

 

Wiki says, "Ivory is an off-white color that resembles ivory, the material from which the teeth and tusks of animals (such as, notably, the elephant and the walrus) is made. It has a very slight tint of yellow."

[ToniBabelony]

It's not your perception or opinion of the colour, but how it's named. Every country, culture and language interpret colours differently. The only way to perceive colours is through a standardised system, like e.g. RAL, Pantone or some other system and keep it in that system. It's like a language, but internationally accepted and applied in certain areas (e.g. printing, painting, etc.).

 

This might be a quick and interesting video on this topic:

 

[velotrain]

"Asama" is the name of an express service between Tokyo and Nagano, which has been operated by a variety of stock over the years. "Asama colour" is the distinctive livery (replacing the generic JNR express livery) applied by JR to the 183s upgraded after 1987 specifically for the Asama service (though the trains were probably later cascaded to other services after the Nagano Shinkansen opened).

 

"The Asama (あさま^?) is a high-speed Shinkansen train service operated by East Japan Railway Company (JR East) on the Nagano Shinkansen in Japan.^[1] The shinkansen service was introduced in October 1997, but the name was first used for a semi-express service operated by Japanese National Railways (JNR) in 1961.^[2]　"Asama" is the name of an active volcano (Mount Asama) near Karuizawa, on the boundary between Gunma and Nagano Prefecture."

 

^[2]  列車名鑑1995 [Train Name Directory 1995]. Japan: Railway Journal. August 1995.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asama_(train)

 

 

Photo of:  189 series Asama service at Ōmiya Station, 1991 (in the original Asama livery)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asama_(train)#/media/File:JRE-EC189-Asama.jpg

[velotrain]

It's not your perception or opinion of the colour, but how it's named.

 

I couldn't disagree more.  I accept that people working in certain industries need to use one of the standardized systems you mention, but my perception and opinion of colors matters very much to me.  You recently mentioned that you're fond of orange, which sounds like both a perception and an opinion - although certainly related to how it's named.  As Creator of the imagination, you should be sympathetic to this perspective ;-)

[ToniBabelony]

It's the name of the colour, hence the quotation marks. They could have named it 'fist of justice' for all I care.

 

As Creator of the imagination, you should be sympathetic to this perspective ;-)

 

I should nothing. I hope I have been of help, since I don't feel like giving any more.

[velotrain]

I said your info and the link to Japanese railway colors was indeed helpful.

 

I didn't mean to suggest you were somehow involved in Seibu calling a color ivory when that didn't seem appropriate.

 

I do disagree with "The only way to perceive colours is through a standardised system".

[ToniBabelony]

Good. Disagree all you like and interpret and bend all you like. Have good day.

[velotrain]

Toni - I didn't initially realize that you were speaking specifically about my comments related to the "Ivory" color used by Seibu.  At least - I think that's the cause of this.

 

You mention "country, culture and language", but color identity is a very subjective matter to each individual, while Pantone and RAL are objective and global.

 

I didn't mean to "interpret and bend", but your statements about how color should be perceived struck me as absolutist, and dismissive of the importance of the individual.  Since you're involved in the arts, this surprised me.