What did you do on your layout today? (N scale)

[nah00]

3 minutes ago, railsquid said:

 

Interesting about the drive shaft; was it pulling the dead weight of the non-motorised unit too?

 

That would be my guess, the drive wheels would lock on it and just scrape across the tracks (traction tires are great for slowing it down too). 

[gavino200]

17 minutes ago, railsquid said:

 

Interesting about the drive shaft; was it pulling the dead weight of the non-motorised unit too?

 

I've got a MicroAce EH10 which "solves" the problem by having two motors, while it's theoretically powerful brief loss of power to either motor make it run very jerkily (one day I'll wire them together).

 

Yes, it was pulling the dead weight of the second unit. 

 

I've become a bit fascinated (obsessed?) with why some locos do so well with the incline while others do so poorly. The difference between the Thunder with and without connecting drive shaft is really dramatic. 

 

The type 500 Shinkansen is amazing on the incline. No speed change. Whereas the E5 and E6 are terrible and each need a second motor unit. But they're awesome on level track. I don't understand it.

 

Adding motor units isn't as dramatic as spreading out the force from one motor, like with the Thunder. I have an KatoUSA Santa Fe train that is fast on the level even with one unit, but needs four units to effectively haul a long train up the incline. 

Edited January 24, 2018 by gavino200

[gavino200]

5 minutes ago, nah00 said:

 

That would be my guess, the drive wheels would lock on it and just scrape across the tracks (traction tires are great for slowing it down too). 

 

Yes, that makes sense. I don't plan on pulling it apart to check though. 

[Pauljag900]

13 minutes ago, nah00 said:

Did a bit of rearranging in my second container yard, I was never really happy with only the two tracks and the #6 turnout just seemed to take up too much space.

Before:

 

Kind of boring, there was no real organization to the stack of containers to the right and no logical for a truck or trailer to be unloaded/loaded. Fixed it problem with the #6 by switching it to a #4, kokis are pretty forgiving and I'm not going through these at speed. The amount of space I gained from the switch was pretty big, I'm able to fit another koki-100 series on each track now. Also was able to make the container yard a little more organized and used PVA glue on the edges of containers to keep them stacked neater. Unfortunately the property value of the house with the green roof suffered somewhat. 

 

 

Also added a wye after the #4 switch, now I'm able to fit another 5 koki in the yard (and more importantly finally get my UM14s on they layout). The track isn't ideal for unloading but if I wanted to I can use the track to the right of the viaduct to shuffle them around, still have to back on the mainline to do that though. Overall I think it looks much better and the perimeter track acts a scene break along with the viaduct. I also learned (well I kind of already knew this but this reinforced it) that it's MUCH easier to get one piece of foam board and cut it to fit for a base than to try and use the scraps you have and try to cut them so they match, particularly when a long straight line is involved. 

 

I love it,very busy and “full”, just as you d imagine it would be,good effort buddy👍👍😀

[nah00]

4 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

 

Yes, it was pulling the dead weight of the second unit. 

 

I've become a bit fascinated (obsessed?) with why some locos do so well with the incline while others do so poorly. The difference between the Thunder with and without connecting drive shaft is really dramatic. 

 

The type 500 Shinkansen is amazing on the incline. No speed change. Whereas the E5 and E6 are terrible and each need a second motor unit. But they're awesome on level track. I don't understand it.

 

Adding motor units isn't as dramatic as spreading out the force from one motor, like with the Thunder. I have an American Santa Fe train that is fast on the level, but needs four units to effectively haul a long train up the incline. 

 

If it's the Tomix 500 and Kato E5 and E6 it's likely because of the all-wheel pickup in the Tomix model. I get much more consistent speeds out of my Tomix Shinkanen sets than my Kato ones because of that. Spreading out power pickup over the whole length of the train makes a big difference. 

 

US prototype locomotives anymore seem to be set to run at only scale speeds. I have a pair of Wheeling & Lake Erie SD40-2 that I pretty much have to run paired even pulling only ten or so hoppers. They're made by Intermountain (which I would expect to be higher quality) but they have less power than my Atlas W&LE GP40. Best runners I have on the American side are my Canadian Pacific SD40-2 'snoot' and my Penn Central GG1...which are both Kato. 

[nah00]

4 minutes ago, Pauljag900 said:

I love it,very busy and “full”, just as you d imagine it would be,good effort buddy👍👍😀

 

Thanks, that's what I was going for. Though it's confusing because half of the yards I've seen on YouTube or online seem to only have a handful of containers in them while the other half seem to have piled everywhere. Probably has something to do with the time of day the pictures were taken. 

[gavino200]

1 minute ago, nah00 said:

 

If it's the Tomix 500 and Kato E5 and E6 it's likely because of the all-wheel pickup in the Tomix model. I get much more consistent speeds out of my Tomix Shinkanen sets than my Kato ones because of that. Spreading out power pickup over the whole length of the train makes a big difference. 

 

US prototype locomotives anymore seem to be set to run at only scale speeds. I have a pair of Wheeling & Lake Erie SD40-2 that I pretty much have to run paired even pulling only ten or so hoppers. They're made by Intermountain (which I would expect to be higher quality) but they have less power than my Atlas W&LE GP40. Best runners I have on the American side are my Canadian Pacific SD40-2 'snoot' and my Penn Central GG1...which are both Kato. 

 

That makes sense about the US locos. I was at a train show a couple of weeks ago, and I must have heard the term "scale speed" at least two hundred times. 

 

The 500 is a Kato. The Eva 500. It's clearly got a very different mechanism than the E5 and E6. It's a lot more powerful. It goes up and down the incline with zero perceptible speed change. The E5/E6 even with double EMUs still have a very slight speed change on the hills. Without the second EMU the fully loaded E5 is a terrible hill climber. 

 

My next shinkansen will be a Tomix. I'm looking forward to seeing the difference.

[Pauljag900]

2 minutes ago, nah00 said:

 

Thanks, that's what I was going for. Though it's confusing because half of the yards I've seen on YouTube or online seem to only have a handful of containers in them while the other half seem to have piled everywhere. Probably has something to do with the time of day the pictures were taken. 

I also think it’s just personal preference,some like their layout to look “ organised and neat” where others like them to look busy.

i worked in Hamburg,Germany for a while and every day we had to cross the river Elb and the freight terminal was just a mass of containers,they were everywhere,with what looked like no organisation to them,there were 1000’s of them.

[serotta1972]

1 hour ago, nah00 said:

 

 

Also added a wye after the #4 switch, now I'm able to fit another 5 koki in the yard (and more importantly finally get my UM14s on the layout). The track isn't ideal for unloading but if I wanted to I can use the track to the right of the viaduct to shuffle them around, still have to back on the mainline to do that though. Overall I think it looks much better and the perimeter track acts a scene break along with the viaduct. I also learned (well I kind of already knew this but this reinforced it) that it's MUCH easier to get one piece of foam board and cut it to fit for a base than to try and use the scraps you have and try to cut them so they match, particularly when a long straight line is involved. 

 

 

I like it, lots going on.  Very industrial.

[Khaul]

I worked on my road today.

 

I think the width of the road is just ok. I need to integrate the shrine in the layout, stairs, walls...

[Das Steinkopf]

7 hours ago, nah00 said:

Also I thought I lost a koki the other day and finally did a count...over the century mark on them now. 

 

 

I was thinking about unofficially claiming the crown of King Koki but looks like I still have some work to do before I can usurp you from the position, I will be sitting at 74 in the next couple of weeks with the arrival of the Tomix 98979 Koki 50000's and will be adding a couple more Koki 106's later on. I would love it if Tomix brought out a Koki 104 with taillights and do a re release of 2778 so I could purchase another ten of the 2778 Koki 104's and renumber them, the only deficiency in my fleet at the moment is Koki 105's and Koki 104's and I won't be purchasing the Kato ones due to it being a sub standard model which is rare for Kato.

[NXCALE]

On ‎24‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 7:28 AM, brill27mcb said:

Bear in mind that with the Tomix 5563 Automatic Operation Unit, only one train runs at a time.

 

Rich K.

That's right Rich, the Tomix 5563 has that limitation but it could be a good starting point.

Btw, I also made a video about it on last year...

Cheers.

 

Edited January 26, 2018 by nxcale

[Das Steinkopf]

18 hours ago, railsquid said:

 

Well it is designed to haul freight in the mountains. Is that the Kato version?

BTW you can put takis and containers on the same consist, though (AFAIK) not randomly mixed.

 

Spot on, they can be either at the front or rear of the rake but as you stated they are never intermingled, here are some links of them in action, sadly I can't find my favourite one which has the Taki 's on the rear of a short consist of between 10 to 12 cars. 

 

http://chuoutouline.blog24.fc2.com/blog-entry-531.html

 

http://superloco.konjiki.jp/newpage1.htm

 

 

Edited January 24, 2018 by Das Steinkopf

[railsquid]

I've noticed all kinds of odd formations now I keep my eye out for freights, on the Musashino line (mentioned elsewhere recently) was an EH500 with a train of 4 or 5 covered wagons (some sort of toki I guess [*]) and an EF65 or EF210 with just two takis in tow.

 

[*] probably a similar working to this:

 

 

[railsquid]

Meanwhile, back on the layout, a Chuo Line E233 is heading through an undisclosed location in the far west of Tokyo bound for the eponymous station.

 

tunnel-hill-5 by Rail Squid, on Flickr

[bill937ca]

10 hours ago, nah00 said:

Did a bit of rearranging in my second container yard, I was never really happy with only the two tracks and the #6 turnout just seemed to take up too much space.

Before:

 

Kind of boring, there was no real organization to the stack of containers to the right and no logical for a truck or trailer to be unloaded/loaded. Fixed it problem with the #6 by switching it to a #4, kokis are pretty forgiving and I'm not going through these at speed. The amount of space I gained from the switch was pretty big, I'm able to fit another koki-100 series on each track now. Also was able to make the container yard a little more organized and used PVA glue on the edges of containers to keep them stacked neater. Unfortunately the property value of the house with the green roof suffered somewhat. 

 

 

Also added a wye after the #4 switch, now I'm able to fit another 5 koki in the yard (and more importantly finally get my UM14s on the layout). The track isn't ideal for unloading but if I wanted to I can use the track to the right of the viaduct to shuffle them around, still have to back on the mainline to do that though. Overall I think it looks much better and the perimeter track acts a scene break along with the viaduct. I also learned (well I kind of already knew this but this reinforced it) that it's MUCH easier to get one piece of foam board and cut it to fit for a base than to try and use the scraps you have and try to cut them so they match, particularly when a long straight line is involved. 

 

 

Have you thought of using a  Kato 20-045 http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10003037 conversion track and Tomix Wide Tram Track for paved track in the container yard?

[kvp]

10 hours ago, gavino200 said:

Yes, it was pulling the dead weight of the second unit. 

I've become a bit fascinated (obsessed?) with why some locos do so well with the incline while others do so poorly. The difference between the Thunder with and without connecting drive shaft is really dramatic. 

The type 500 Shinkansen is amazing on the incline. No speed change. Whereas the E5 and E6 are terrible and each need a second motor unit. But they're awesome on level track. I don't understand it.

Adding motor units isn't as dramatic as spreading out the force from one motor, like with the Thunder. I have an KatoUSA Santa Fe train that is fast on the level even with one unit, but needs four units to effectively haul a long train up the incline. 

First, the connected unit has worm gears on both half units. This means if you don't power one of the units, the wheels are locked, thanks to the form locking nature of the worm gears. This is the main reason why model trains tend to stop very suddenly if power is cut. Even for powerless coasting, they need the worm gear to rotate exactly as fast as the cog connected to it would go.

 

The speed change is simply based on the reserve power of the motor. The speed is normally a function of the voltage, until the motor is fully loaded. Then it's the function of the motor power (voltage, coil resitence and permanent magnet power) and could also be limited by the current capacity of the controller. A strong magnet in the motor means less current is needed for the same power, BLDC motors use this to their advantage on the prototype. Having a higher power motor just makes the unit stronger and while it can't be felt on level track as the voltage limits the speed, it's important on inclines as the slowdown is much smaller. On the other hand, the current consumption jumps up. (for smaller motors, the current usually stays the same, but the speed drops)

 

Traction tires also help with steep inclines as the prevent wheel slip. Actually if your wheels are slipping, then it's already bad, but many model trains could scrape themselves up an incline even with slipping wheels. Having more driven axles also helps to prevent slips, especially with fast starts and stops, this is similar to the prototype, where only steel wheels are used.

[Yavianice]

10 hours ago, gavino200 said:

The 500 is a Kato. The Eva 500. It's clearly got a very different mechanism than the E5 and E6. It's a lot more powerful. It goes up and down the incline with zero perceptible speed change. The E5/E6 even with double EMUs still have a very slight speed change on the hills. Without the second EMU the fully loaded E5 is a terrible hill climber. 

 

My next shinkansen will be a Tomix. I'm looking forward to seeing the difference.

I have no problem on my 2% (double extended KATO incline with additional pier set) track with my KATO E2, E3, E4, H5, and Dr. Yellow. The E7 I notice it a little bit, but it's also the longest and heaviest. All are equipped with interior lighting, too. Of all of these, I would say the E4 is the most poweful of the bunch (even though only 1 bogie is powered).

 

I do not notice a difference between the performance of my TOMIX and KATO shinkansens or other trains. Even though the TOMIX trains have not been equipped with interior lighting yet, while all my KATO trains are.

 

That being said, KATO produces their incline that starts with an 'odd' piece (not a full length 248 mm one). This is the steep part which would slow my trains down. I instead put a bit of cardboard below it to make the beginning of the slope much more gradual, like the end of the slope is with the 4.5 base. It makes a huge difference. Maybe that helps for you too.

 

16 minutes ago, kvp said:

First, the connected unit has worm gears on both half units. (....) especially with fast starts and stops, this is similar to the prototype, where only steel wheels are used.

 

kvp, I really appreciate, enjoy and learn a lot from your insightful answers. Thank you!

Edited January 24, 2018 by Yavianice

[railsquid]

7 minutes ago, kvp said:

Traction tires also help with steep inclines as the prevent wheel slip. Actually if your wheels are slipping, then it's already bad, but many model trains could scrape themselves up an incline even with slipping wheels. Having more driven axles also helps to prevent slips, especially with fast starts and stops, this is similar to the prototype, where only steel wheels are used.

 

This is something which annoys me with British outline locomotives, neither Farish nor Dapol see fit to use traction tyres (apart from some steam locomotives) so gradients need to be carefully planned...

[Yavianice]

2 minutes ago, railsquid said:

 

This is something which annoys me with British outline locomotives, neither Farish nor Dapol see fit to use traction tyres (apart from some steam locomotives) so gradients need to be carefully planned...

Do separately purchased traction tires from KATO/TOMIX/European brands not fit on these?

[gavino200]

30 minutes ago, kvp said:

First, the connected unit has worm gears on both half units. This means if you don't power one of the units, the wheels are locked, thanks to the form locking nature of the worm gears. This is the main reason why model trains tend to stop very suddenly if power is cut. Even for powerless coasting, they need the worm gear to rotate exactly as fast as the cog connected to it would go.

 

 

 

I removed the worm gears for my little experiment. I was trying to see if I could use the space to install a decoder. 

 

I wonder if the Type 500 Shinkansen has worm gears. I don't recall. It behaves in exactly the manner you describe. Very sudden stop when power is shut off. It's also an excellent hill climber. I wonder if there's a relation between presence of worm gears and climbing ability. 

Edited January 24, 2018 by gavino200

[railsquid]

3 minutes ago, Yavianice said:

Do separately purchased traction tires from KATO/TOMIX/European brands not fit on these?

 

Nope, the wheels aren't designed for traction tyres.

[gavino200]

6 hours ago, Yavianice said:

I have no problem on my 2% (double extended KATO incline with additional pier set) track with my KATO E2, E3, E4, H5, and Dr. Yellow. The E7 I notice it a little bit, but it's also the longest and heaviest. All are equipped with interior lighting, too. Of all of these, I would say the E4 is the most poweful of the bunch (even though only 1 bogie is powered).

 

 

Interesting. My E5 was an acceptable climber as a 7 car train. Slow down was very noticeable when I added the second add on set. Perhaps my E5 is just getting old. However,  the E6 had a hard time even with just 7 cars, but it doesn't have a traction tire. 

 

Btw, are you running DC or DCC?

 

All my Shinkansens have interior lights. I hadn't considered that as a factor.

Edited January 24, 2018 by gavino200

[gavino200]

45 minutes ago, kvp said:

The speed change is simply based on the reserve power of the motor. The speed is normally a function of the voltage, until the motor is fully loaded. Then it's the function of the motor power (voltage, coil resitence and permanent magnet power) and could also be limited by the current capacity of the controller. A strong magnet in the motor means less current is needed for the same power, BLDC motors use this to their advantage on the prototype. Having a higher power motor just makes the unit stronger and while it can't be felt on level track as the voltage limits the speed, it's important on inclines as the slowdown is much smaller. On the other hand, the current consumption jumps up. (for smaller motors, the current usually stays the same, but the speed drops)

 

 

Do you know any way to determine how powerful a motor is from available information? Or do you just have to find out empirically ie. buy the loco and see how it runs. I'd like to be able to preferentially buy trains with stronger motors, or switch out motors for stronger units. 

 

Any advice?

 

Wouldn't a stronger magnet also cause more stopping force when the power is cut? Stronger magnet = stronger motor?? After all, they all use the same voltage, right? I wonder how much random variation there is in magnet field strength between different train motors.

 

I've long been amazed by the amount of variation between industrially produced items that are supposedly identical. I assume these motors are all produced in China, where quality control and consistency are suspect at best. Just a thought.

Edited January 24, 2018 by gavino200

[kvp]

56 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

Do you know any way to determine how powerful a motor is from available information? Or do you just have to find out empirically ie. buy the loco and see how it runs. I'd like to be able to preferentially buy trains with stronger motors, or switch out motors for stronger units. 

Any advice?

Wouldn't a stronger magnet also cause more stopping force when the power is cut? Stronger magnet = stronger motor?? After all, they all use the same voltage, right? I wonder how much random variation there is in magnet field strength between different train motors.

I've long been amazed by the amount of variation between industrially produced items that are supposedly identical. I assume these motors are all produced in China, where quality control and consistency are suspect at best. Just a thought.

The first thing is getting the current capacity of the motor. This could be done by measuring the resistence of the coils by measuring between the wheels or the brushes of the motor. Rotating the motor a bit helps as many times more than one coil is connected and some older units tend to have blind spots on their commutator. Then you have to measure the rotation of the wheels unloaded, so with the loco on its top but at full throttle. This gives us the rotation at 12V without load and the resistance in ohms, so max voltage (12V) / resistance = max. (stalled) current while max. current * max voltage = the max. (stalled) electrical power. If the controller can't supply this much current, then you have found a bottleneck. (and please add in the current needed by the lighting and a bit more for track power losses) Then you have to measure the power of the magnets and the motor geometry to calculate the actual physical power of the motor and substract the mechanical loss of the transmission.

 

Imho it's just better to run them and use a current meter connected serially to the feeder or if you are using a pwm system, then to the controller's input power feed. Substract the standing but fully lit current consumption from the level running one to get the power required to move the train on a level track, then check if the slopes actually increase this current and by how much. Also for a pwm drive, it's possible to measure the free running voltage of the motor and you can calculate the speed from it. Modern load compensating DCC decoders use this to add more power on inclines to keep the speed and also to brake a bit going down so the speed is kept constant. Measuring could be done with controllers that have built in current meters (like some Tomix driving stands). Looking at the display, if the current consumption significantly jumps up on a ramp and speed is lost, then the motor is heavily loaded and adding one more power car could help. (if the controller has enough current, otherwise it won't help)

 

Good examples are Kato's high current controllers (Hyper D and Hyper DX), which are suggested for H0 and to run N scale trains with more motor units and lights (like 2 motors in an emu and 2 pusher locomotives, cars fully lit, 4% grade uphill).

 

ps: One more thing to add, the permanent magnets are not really permanent, they tend to loose power when used, so an old motor usually has weaker magnets. The sideeffect is that these motors run faster unloaded and loose more speed as they are loaded, since the motors are actually weaker. (the higher speed is due to the weaker magnetic field, which builds up and collapses faster, but with less power)