Small (2x4) B Train layout

[Polkadot]

I've been doing a whole lot of planning around a 2x4 layout for B trains, most of the track plans I've seen for 2x4 use 9-3/4"/249mm radius curves as a minimum since they're designed for either full length coaches or designed around Atlas track.

 

Because of this I've decided to scale down a slightly larger layout design(in this case the Kato 03-6 layout that folks have been talking about) to fit within the 2x4 limit by using tighter radius curves.

 

this was heavily inspired by kvp's "mini 03-6" which uses tomix r140 pieces.

 

I'm looking for feedback especially with how the B trains actually run on tight curves, as well as any potential issues with this plan.

 

kato_3-6mini.bmp

[cteno4]

Polkadot,

 

They do well on tight radius curves for the most part. Only issue with the plan is it does have a reversing loop so you need to do a little special wiring and contro for that, but not hard!

 

Jeff

[kvp]

Yes, actually 4 isolating joiners on the legs of the turnout top left of the crossover and a track power polarity switch between the inner loop feed on the right and the uphill ramp feeder will work nicely. The outer loop is isolated by the crossover and could be powered from the right outer curve.

[tossedman]

B Train Shorties have no trouble with tight corners.

 

[nickhp]

What kind of train lengths are you planning on running?  If more than 4 cars, I would avoid any inclines or level changes since the B Trains don't do well with inclines.  In fact, even 4 cars might be a struggle on all but the shallowest of inclines.

[splifdfx]

To help with inclines, you can put weights inside the carriages to increase traction or add a second motor somewhere in the train.
But they do struggle indeed.

[tossedman]

We've not seen any issues with inclines and our B Train Shorties. We use the weights. Even the 16 car Shinkansen 0 Series has no trouble with only two powered cars.

 

[tossedman]

We use the Kato trucks and the Bandai Power Unit 3. Bandai's Power Unit 3 is a second generation motor and features 4-axle drive, as opposed to the 2-axle drive of their Power Unit 2. They pull quite well I find. There's a Power Unit 5 out as well but we haven't tried those yet. These all have one rubber drive wheel as well.

Edited November 13, 2016 by tossedman

[kvp]

One power unit per 4 cars works nicely on most steep inclines. I prefer to use Bandai motors with Bandai bogies as they allow decorative sidefames to be used and work well with rapido couplers on all bogies. (it's a must for small radius running)

[nickhp]

I use bandai power 3 with kato trucks as mentioned way back in this thread (http://www.jnsforum.com/community/topic/281-bandai-b-train-shorty/page-10?do=findComment&comment=66040), weight power vehicles as much as possible, but still avoid inclines as much as I can.  The problem with a small layout is that it's not really possible to minimize inclines.  Your layout, if you want to go with inclines and believe the previous posts, good luck to you.  I hope you won't get fed up with issues like I did and scrap your layout or b-trains as a result.

 

Avoid older bandai trailing trucks, if you do want to use bandai's to be consistent with sideframes, use the newer style as they do not include brass pickup strips which reduces friction on these newer trucks.  They still do not roll anywhere near as smoothly as kato trucks and a lot of wheels seem to be a little poor on machining resulting in trains wobbling on off-round wheels.

[tossedman]

Yes, I find the Kato trucks run much more smoothly as well. I haven't bought any in a few years though so newer Bandai trucks may be better. Also, with a young boy playing with them we don't end up with the Bandai side frames lying all around the room. That won't be an issue for most of you though.

[Polkadot]

Thanks for the input everybody.

 

As far as the reversing loop goes, I have family background in electrical engineering so I'm not really put off by complicated (or not) wiring.

 

I'm planning on mostly running 4 car trains, with the bandai power unit 3 and bandai running trucks (I actually got the Kato trucks first but the particular B-train I have doesn't seem to work with them)

On the plan I've figured a grade or about 3.6% maximum, using 1.5" as minimum clearance (around scale catenary height). so I'm hoping that that will be shallow enough for the shorties.

 

on an unrelated note, I'm having problems with the side frames not staying put in the Power Unit 3, almost as if there's a spring pushing them out, anyone else have that issue?

[nickhp]

Yes. You can try filing GENTLY the little pegs on the back of the sideframes. That's always worked for me.

[kami_illy]

I'm having problems with the side frames not staying put in the Power Unit 3

 

I had the same issue. The brass pick-up plates push the covers out. I fixed it by shortening the little mounting things in the back. Sometimes they where loose afterwards but this you can solve with thin double side tape or a drop of glue. 

 

 

On the plan I've figured a grade or about 3.6% maximum, using 1.5" as minimum clearance (around scale catenary height). so I'm hoping that that will be shallow enough for the shorties.

 

I am working on a B-Train Layout as well and also want to implement grades for flyovers, bridges. In some tests i found out that the bandai motors can push quite some cars but the actual problem seems to be to get on and of the grades. These transitions are sensible, especially if they are on curves. the best is to build a mock up and try out how your trains perform at different speeds and so on... 

In my case i found out that articulated trains (Odakyu RomanceCar, Enoden, ...) derail easily in these areas bc single wheels seem to loose contact to the rails. 

[nah00]

How well would this layout work smaller JNR steam locomotives? I know the 150mm curves are tight but a C11 should make them, wondering how smaller DMUs/EMUs would fare. 

[kvp]

Most Tomytec and some Tomix trains (including 20 meter dmu-s and emu-s, some bo-bo locomotives) could run on 140 mm curves, including S curves and turnouts. The overhang is massive and bogie mounted rapido couplers are almost always a must. Shorter trains usually run ok on R150 or C140.

[Polkadot]

Having heard that B-trains may have issues with grades, I decided to design a "Plan B" layout that was completely flat, and wound up with 4 or 5 options, one of which isn't really flat (Hmm... If grades should be avoided I should definitely design a Hakone layout)B-Train_Hakone_Tozan_in_2x4.bmp

 

Shrinking down the larger layouts for B-trans has turned out to be a very fun thing to do.Kato_3-8Mini.bmp

 

And these are just slight modifications to eliminate the need for an Up-n'-over  at the expense of some operating interestkato_3-6mini_PLAN-B.bmpkato_3-6mini_PLAN-C.bmp

 

I also decided to try to shrink & flatten Nick Yee's 2.5x5 B-train layout to suit my needs (but not particularly faithfully)kato_3-6mini_PLAN-D.bmp

 

Apologies for the flood of ideas, I feel that being this far out from having any real track to work with (not going to have even an oval until winter holidays) I'm just throwing track ideas out to see what sticks

[splifdfx]

How well would this layout work smaller JNR steam locomotives? I know the 150mm curves are tight but a C11 should make them, wondering how smaller DMUs/EMUs would fare. 

 

This might help you : http://www.tomytec.co.jp/tomix/products/n/smc_mc_sharyo.htm

I'm collecting mini- and supermini-able trainsets and can tell you that most of them even run on C107 - even longer dmus like the Tomix 2642. Modemo Randen Trams also easily pass these curves.

 

[nah00]

I do really like the up-and-over plan. I think you should be able to make the grades work but you'll have to start the approach right on the 248 straight after the mini turnout.

[kvp]

ps: The reason for the articulated derailments is usually a sharp vertical transition as the btrain joints are not as flexible in the vertical direction as in the horizontal. The same is true for close coupled cars with body mounted couplers. Using several smaller pieces (like S62s) allows a more gentle transition at the joiners as roadbed rails are hard to bend.

[kami_illy]

true, especially with the compressed shorty layouts that seems to be a crucial point.

 

Don't give up on the up-and-down game. For my layout i decided to work with split levels. This means i don't have a main level from which it goes up or down but splitting the clearance in up AND down. This way one track goes up 2cm, the other one down 2cm and you end up with 4cm of clearance. 

 

Here you can see what i mean

this is an early rendering of my shorty layout, that i am planning right now. In the front the curve is going up 1,5cm and the siding is going down around 2,5cm. I did test it one time and it looked promising so far. 

Edited November 15, 2016 by kami_illy

[bill937ca]

Have you thought of adding a flat viaduct or embankment as the second level?  

[Polkadot]

I'm back from the dead (life happened)

 

I don't know if I should start a new thread or just use this one but the spark has been lit and I'm going full speed ahead!

 

I've done my own testing with the shorty that I have (Keihan 2400 4-car, power unit 3 & Bandai trucks) and it seems to handle 5% grades no problem.

With that out of the way, I present to you the layout that I've taken to calling "VJM Shorty" which is a very squished version of VJM's amazing 1.2m x 4m layout, crammed into 2 x 6 feet.

[bill937ca]

NIce layout It lets you run three trains with some flexibility.  This may not be good news, but B Trains seem to be getting somewhat scarce with few new releases.

 

[EF57]

hey good idea to shrink vjm’s plan.  i did it too, but a bit bigger so as to be able to use banked curves. i do run shorties on it as well!   see “ef 57’s scenery-less layouts” under layout building