Tsurumi line construction

[Khaul]

I would suggest reversing the crossing just before the viaduct starts so you have a passing track.

 

You already have a crossing going in that direction on the other side of the layout, so I don't see what this one adds, and it could help operations if reversed.

 

Hi Charles,

 

The crossing allows the train coming from the viaduct to stop at either side of the island platform. Unless I am missing something, and I may, the two crossings allow for a passing track to reverse freight locos.

 

Cheers,

 

Pablo

[velotrain]

Hi Pablo -

 

It functions as a runaround track, but not a passing track - i.e. two trains can't pass each other without one of them backing up. Say, if you had one train - running counter-clockwise, stopped on the outside of the island platform, it would be forced onto the viaduct track. Similarly, a train running clockwise on the loop couldn't get to the outside of the island platform - somehow that seems a higher priority than allowing a train coming off the viaduct to do that. If you really want maximum flexibility, you might need a double crossover there.

 

I'm also curious about "there are two connections to industries inside the loop" - neither of those groups of tracks is considered a yard, or are the actual industry tracks not shown? If those are in fact all industry tracks, you don't want anywhere to store freight cars or passenger trains when not running?

 

Charles

[kvp]

I think the operation patter here might be that all freight and passenger trains originate from the viaduct (aka. hidden fiddle yard). They enter the layout by passing through the passenger station.

 

Passenger trains could have 6 simple routes:

viaduct - outer platform - reversing - viaduct

viaduct - inner platform - reversing - viaduct

viaduct - outer platform - loop - inner platform - reversing - viaduct

viaduct - inner platform - reversing - loop - outer platform - viaduct

viaduct - outer platform - loop - inner platform - reversing - outer platform - viaduct

inner platform - inner platform (aka. continous running)

 

Freight trains could serve the two industries and the mainline freight loco could take a nap on the small stub track while the shunter dispatches the cars or the shunter could be parked there until there is freight to be shunted.

 

Both operating patterns require a hidden fiddle yard on the other side of the elevated line. This could be as little a the line itself if only one train is stored there. With proper cab control, if each station track, each industry, the elevated line and the loop line is on-off controllable, then it's possible to have up to 2 passenger trains, 1 freight and 1 shunter operating on the line, while both industries are storing some cars on their yards. Imho a fiddle yard will be required unless the 0-5-0 shunter is used to move freight locos from one end of the freight train parked on the viaduct to the other before returning.

[Khaul]

Hi Pablo -

 

It functions as a runaround track, but not a passing track - i.e. two trains can't pass each other without one of them backing up. Say, if you had one train - running counter-clockwise, stopped on the outside of the island platform, it would be forced onto the viaduct track. Similarly, a train running clockwise on the loop couldn't get to the outside of the island platform - somehow that seems a higher priority than allowing a train coming off the viaduct to do that. If you really want maximum flexibility, you might need a double crossover there.

 

I'm also curious about "there are two connections to industries inside the loop" - neither of those groups of tracks is considered a yard, or are the actual industry tracks not shown? If those are in fact all industry tracks, you don't want anywhere to store freight cars or passenger trains when not running?

 

Charles

 

Right, a double crossover would be the adequate thing to have for maximum flexibility.

 

Thanks Charles.

[Khaul]

I think the operation patter here might be that all freight and passenger trains originate from the viaduct (aka. hidden fiddle yard). They enter the layout by passing through the passenger station.

 

Yes, ideally trains come and go to the fiddle yard, the rest of the world. The space in the layout is very tight so there is no space for a proper yard, industry branches have to suffice. That does actually happen in some of the Kanagawa Rinkai branches originating from the Kawasaki freight yard. The operating pattern for a freight trains works a follows:

 

-down the viaduct to the outer station track where the main line loco detaches and goes into the stub track.

-then a diesel shunter takes the empty freight cars into the industry sidings and carries the loaded ones to the inner track to form a train.

-the main line loco runs around and takes the train out through the viaduct.

 

Freight movements are supposed to happen at night or during the working hours of the day when there is no passenger train traffic. At most, freight cars can be left in the outer station track so the inner track is used for passenger EMUs.

 

The original plan was for a single track loop with run-around track plus an Inglenook sidings freight branch. The East curve of the loop would be hidden by scenery and that's where the trains would originate and go. A variation allows for just a short hidden staging track parallel to the East curve, but that allows for only a short EMU. That's ok, but freight trains need to come from somewhere so I figured out the viaduct/fiddle yard solution. I am just typing on a white IKEA table that would be ideal as support for the fiddle yard, but that will require complicated negotiations. In any case the table top Tsunami is a modular project that can adapt to circumstances.

 

Cheers,

 

Pablo

[Khaul]

Thanks to kvp and velotrain for their feedback. This is the result of my thinking:

 

-I have added a respectable freight yard to the visible part of the layout.

-There is now an elevated fiddle yard hidden by an scenery separation. I quite like the space saving although it only allows for shortish freight trains.

-As a bonus there is also provision for a new out-of-table branch going to the docks. That could be use occasionally when an additional table can be fit in.

-There is a small loco shed for a DD13.

-I have added industries and roads.

 

Putting all that together will be challenging and keeping it modular border line unfeasible, but it's good to think about where things can go.

 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Khaul
Fixing image links

[velotrain]

I like it - that raised fiddle yard looks ripe for either a cassette or traverser system, but that could be added later.

[cteno4]

Cassette system would be nice to easily take trains on and off if you have a lot more trains than you can play with one layout.

 

I've fiddled with doing a cassette track at home and works ok if careful. Want to try it more with our new club layout as for small setups w.o our yard added we could easily put one on the end of the layout and display trains on cassette tracks on a display table as well.

 

Jeff

[Khaul]

Alright, I am researching the cassette system now! I may change my priority and do the fiddle yard sooner. It will add a lot to the operation of the layout.

[velotrain]

You've already drawn it on your track plan ;-)

[Khaul]

On 3/17/2017 at 10:43 PM, kvp said:

I think you might want to check the height clearance at the bottom end of the sloping roof. From the picture it looks like it's too low for N scale passengers as it is now..

 

The engineers came to check the clearance of the awning. They also approved the fences. One of them looks surprisingly old. The glue was not even dry yet, but there is no time to lose!

 

 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Khaul
Fixing image links

[Khaul]

Alright, another lengthy post about a micro improvement  :)

 

Now I have a scratch build level crossing, and it's nearly done! I am so pleased with the improvement over the original Kato crossing. I was not too happy with the Tomytec plate as it left too much of a gap between rails and guard rail. So I cut the guard rails off and attached them to a wider piece of painted balsa wood. Also, I think I found a nicer rusty colour for the rails, see below. Next is ballasting and planting weeds on the sides. It's going to be tricky as the platform will still need to come on and off the modules for storage. In particular I will need to finally glue down the transition piece, the one that gives access to the platform. Fingers crossed!

 

Then I got overexcited and tried to paint two white lines on the sides of the crossing to make it look even cooler. I used masking tape, but the paint went through it and made a bit of a mess. Nothing than can't be fixed, but rather disappointing. I will cut some white stickers to make the lines.

 

Kato crossing

 

Tomytec plate, in the background

 

 

Scratchbuilt crossing

 

Checking clearance

 

Detail

 

Prototypes

1:56

0:22

Edited October 18, 2017 by Khaul
Fixing image links

[Khaul]

That's not much about the Tsurumi line construction but about the rolling stock, see below. I am now waiting for supplies to install lights in both the platform and the station building.

 

 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Khaul
Fixing image links

[Khaul]

I have been working on a new idea. It sacrifices the loop and therefore the satisfaction of seeing trains going roundy round but operations would be still intense and interesting. The diagram, see below, is better than any explanation:

 

 

In one operation style EMUs come and go from the station to the fiddle yard. The cassettes or a transfer plate work as a double crossover allowing trains to leave or come in using either track. Freight operations are more complex. A freight can be one (single) or two cassettes (double) long. A single freight is easy to deal with because it fits between the station points. The main line loco simply runs around and leaves or stays in the southern most track waiting to take loads. A shunter then comes in and takes the train to the centre tracks in the yard then runs around and finally leaves the it in the northern "in" yard tracks. Then it can take another train from the southern "out" tracks. There is a lot of further shunting to be done in the industry sidings. By the way this is copied from here http://www.wymann.info/ShuntingPuzzles/small-layouts.html and can be done as two modules that can leave in a shelf and brought in to the table for a session. The layout can be run for two people in almost a competitive way. One bring in and takes loads to and from the fiddle yard and the other process the trains through the yard and the industry.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Khaul

[Rod.H]

The only comments I've is how are you meant to decouple wagons? And using kato's all-in-one single crossover in the yard would cut down on some of the required track pieces & the electrical.

[Khaul]

I have Kato knuckle couplers installed in my freight rolling stock. They couple quite well. Decoupling is done with a sharpened toothpick. Crossovers are a good idea.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Khaul

[velotrain]

You might want to run through the proposed shunting process at the industrial area, including bringing a short train in, picking up and dropping cars, and building the outbound train. 

 

I'm not sure you can actually spot any cars at industry sidings A or B, as the space there might be needed for runaround operations, and/or access to the unlabeled siding at the top.

 

Either try setting up temporary track to see if it works as you've planned it, or do this as a paper exercise.

[Khaul]

Hi Charles,

 

I have not given much of a thought about the operation of the industry sidings. They are a shunting puzzle taken from wymann.info. It is actually a Timesaver which I connected to an incoming track. Anyway, what I like about the industry sidings is they are compact and allow, or rather require, quite a lot of work to move things around. It's also nice to model an internal factory network. This is the original track plan:

 

 

which I got from here http://www.wymann.info/ShuntingPuzzles/small-layouts.html

 

In my plan sidings A and B are labels for two distinct modules, not for the sidings themselves. The idea is to keep them together in a shelf and separate them for easy transportation to the dining table where they would be joined to other modules. 

 

The industry sidings may not even need a run around track at all because they are supported by a nice yard. Instead, a headhunt to serve the sidings on module B could be better.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Khaul

[velotrain]

Hi Khaul - I'd say that the graphic from wymann only serves to reinforce my point.  Granted that it's showing maximum capacity, but it also illustrates gridlock, as there's no space for anything on it to be moved without fouling points.  Sure, the engine could couple to a car from C or D - but then what?  It's not so much "quite a lot of work to move things around", but impossible as shown ;-) 

 

I'm suggesting that you make sure your proposed industrial area will provide you with satisfying operation before you build it, by actually working through a possible shunting scenario or two.  That would include a place for the engine to temporarily drop the inbound cars, so it can clear the outbounds from all industry locations.  Then the outbounds need to be stored somewhere that they don't interfere with spotting the inbounds.  Finally the outbounds must be regathered and removed.  Shunting puzzles should be fun, and not frustrating.  You also need to consider the likely length of the car types, based on the industries they'll be serving.

 

I often have this issue with published track plans, especially for alleged shunting layouts.  They may look interesting on paper, but once you start to analyze actual operations on them, they often fall apart.

[Khaul]

Goods points, Charles, thanks. In any case outbounds will be stored in the yard but I'll definitely revise the factory network.

[kvp]

The full occupancy map is showing all car locations, but the actual puzzle description has a 3 car inbound and a 3 car outbound train, so up to 6 cars at most.

 

However real industry sidings tend to be optimized for efficient operation, especially in Japan where the interchange siding/storage tracks/loading spots strategy seems (seemed) to be in favor. The interchange sidings usually have runaround capabilities, but the rest of the facility is usually switched from one end, inglenook style as this is the most efficient switching wise. The interchange siding is usually outside the factory fence while the storage yard and loading sites are usually inside. If the interchange is too far away from the fence, then the storage yard might get a runaround too for outgoung trains and as an escape track for the shunting locomotive.

[velotrain]

The full occupancy map is showing all car locations, but the actual puzzle description has a 3 car inbound and a 3 car outbound train, so up to 6 cars at most.

 

 

Where do you see that - I can't find it in the link that Khaul posted?

 

There's always the possibility of previously spotted cars that aren't ready to remove.

[kvp]

The original plan was first shown elswhere and there it had an operations howto. Using 6 cars with either 3 cars in, 3 cars already in or 6 cars already in and 3 cars out or 3 cars in, 3 cars out seems to be the limit with a short (1 car long) loco.

 

However industry, especially japanese ones try to build for efficiency, so shunting from one side is preferred. The inglenook and its variants are perfect to model this. A runaround is usually added though to allow entering and exiting the factory grounds loco first.

 

I would suggest looking at the prototype for inpiration. Imho the Tsurumi area is well documented.

Edited May 31, 2017 by kvp

[Rod.H]

I did a quick look of the area in Google maps, the closest, I could find to timesaver is the industrial complex between Shin-Shibaura & Umi-Shibaura. The oil refinery south of Anzen's inglenook-esc, fed from a run-around which in turn is fed from a switchback. I even found the location of a video Khaul posted at Okawa, but that location's no longer receiving rail freight, nor passengers.   

[kvp]

If you look at the factory between the two stations, it has inglenook style branching tracks to each building and loading area, fed from the mainline, that has a runaround overlapping the original branch out point. There is only one switchback location that is coming off the end of this runaround and actually needs the switcher on the same end as the rest of the complex.

 

The usual operation from what i could decipher from the videos is that the mainline engine drops off the cars at a siding, a factory shunter comes out for them, pulls them to the factory (if it's not right next to the mainline), then switches to the end and pushes each car to its location, while pulling out each departing car and stacking them back onto the runaround. Then pulls the whole departing rake back to the station. Regardless which direction the factory tracks are going off from the runaround, the whole operation requires exactly one runaround either at the start or at the end of the run.

 

If you want more operational complexity, i would suggest branching the factory tracks off in both directions, so the switcher has to alternate between which end of the rake it has to take the cars off. This would also result in that you will need at lest two storage tracks and a runaround, resulting in an at least 3 track internal yard. The mainline handover track could be a single siding with a switcher storage stub on the opposite end of the factory branch end. Afaik this is the most complex operation that you could model that is based on the general prototype. Of course there are exceptions and Japan is a land where you can find a prototype for everything.

 

Btw. if you want remote decoupling, then you will need one decoupler at turnout the end of each loading spot and at the turnout end of each storage/handover track. If you combine the runaround track with the loading spot turnouts, then you can make pretty compact yards.

 

A simple example with the handover siding and part of the mainline on the bottom, the factory spur in the curve, the factory on the top. One harder operational trick is getting cars into and out of the end of the switchback loading track with enough space for the locomotive only on the blue stub on the left. Colors: red = loading areas, green = storage sidings, blue = locomotive stubs

Edited May 31, 2017 by kvp