Questions for a Newby

[Paroan24]

Hi,  about 20 years ago I had an N scale setup using mostly flex track.  I received the most pleasure from building many city style buildings and doing the landscaping.  Over the years my job took me to new places and I took all the buildings with me.  I am now retired so not moving again and want to get back to this hobby.

 

I still have tons of great buildings and have been looking at track, controllers, and trains themselves.  Out of the blue I was offered a box of Nscale "stuff" by someone that lost her husband and was going to throw the box out.  I was quite shocked as everything in the box was brand new: a bunch of Tomix fine track including a few switches, a Tomix starter set with a small controller,  double track overhead railway set, a bunch of wide tram fine track, and various engines and cars.  I have not yet gone through the trains them selves to see if they are all Tomix or various brands.

 

I made a very small circle with some fine track, put one engine on it and attached the controller.  It ran beautifully.  I immediately decided I much preferred this track to what I used years ago.  As I will be making a city setting, the wide tram track will be perfect for a city trolley and the rest of the track for the regular trains.

 

Now a few of what I am sure will be many questions.  I liked how easy it was to connect the controller to the track.  If I were to get a different brand controller, how would that connect to the Tomix track?

 

Since I am too new at this to attempt converting engines to DCC, at least for now I would not have this.  For those of you that do not have DCC, do you only run one train at a time?  I seem to remember that if wired properly you could run more than one train but I would like to avoid a lot of wiring as I am not very good at that.  Plus can you do that with Tomix track?

 

I was thinking I could use a small Tomix controller for the trolley track and a second one for the fine train track.  Any thoughts?

 

I apologize up front if these questions are too simple.  Thanks for any help.

[keiichi77]

Welcome back into the hobby, I will leave the other electrical questions to someone that is more experienced but to answer your question about connecting another brand of controller to Tomix track, you can buy rail joiners with wires attached or you can solder your wires right to the outside of the rails which is preferred method.

[velotrain]

Not sure what brand controller you have in mind, but Tomix and Kato each have proprietary cables for connecting their controllers to their own track.

 

If you wanted to use a Kato or other controller, I suspect the easiest route would be to buy an extra set of Tomix cables and attach them to the non-Tomix controller.  Kato controllers will also have specific connections on that end, so you may need to splice the two brands of cables.

 

Soldering wires to the rails is traditionally done on permanent layouts, but not if you want the flexibility to set the Tomix track sections up differently each time.

 

If you've decided to go with Tomix track, you might want to check out their 5563 TCS unit:  http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10040736

 

This provides for eight different modes of automated operations, many involving two (or more) trains, although not simultaneous running.  Searching for it in the forums will provide detailed info and some video links.

 

You can easily run two trains simultaneously if you have two electronically isolated loops and a separate controller for each. 

Relatively few Japanese run DCC for a number of reasons.

Edited September 2, 2016 by velotrain

[Paroan24]

Thanks.  As I stated, I already have a Tomix controller and was considering getting another one.  The one in the link came out 11 years ago.  Would there not be more current models?

 

Do most of the members here just run one train at a time?

[kvp]

There are a lot of Tomix controllers, for example:

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10360986

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10209284

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10160414

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10072781

 

You can choose the one that matches your trains the most or just go with a generic variant. Some have extra features, like acceleration/brake simulation or constant (speed independent) lighting.

 

Most of us run as many trains as we have track circuits, these are mostly loops. A double track mainline usually allows at least 2 trains to be run independently of each other, but there are ways to divide larger layouts into smaller blocks and run more trains. A double track mainline loop and a tram loop will need at least 3 controllers. (just be sure to put isolating joiners at crossover points between tracks powered by different controllers)

 

ps: Connecting different brand controllers and tracks will mean cutting and connecting two different feed cables together to get a converter cable with one type of plug on one end and another type on the other.

[velotrain]

The one in the link came out 11 years ago.  Would there not be more current models?

 

 

It still works quite well, and is actually an accessory controller, as you need to connect it to a TCS series controller.

[velotrain]

 (just be sure to put isolating joiners at crossover points between tracks powered by different controllers)

 

 

 

OR - simply set the crossover turnouts for each loop and there are no problems.

[Paroan24]

KVP, Can you please explain what you mean by "A double track mainline usually allows at least 2 trains to be run independently of each other"

 

Velotrain, So if I have 2 loops connected by 2 manual switches, I can put a controller on each loop and as long as the switches are set for each loop, the 2 trains will run ok?  If I remove 1 train and move the switch can I run that train on both loops with the 1 controller or do I have to change to the 2nd controller once it crosses over?

[kvp]

A double track mainline in modell usually means two loops forming a double track line. Two independent loops = two independent controllers = two trains can be run independently of each other. Also there are special double track pieces that are ready made for building double track lines without extra ballasting. Wide tracks are also good for this purpose.

 

The usual way is to isolate the two loops at the crossovers with isolating joiners and to change controllers after crossing over. This requires both controllers during the crossover to be in the same direction and general speed setting to work reliably. (and preferably made by the same company)

 

There is an alternative, where you use the power routing functionality of the turnouts and power both loops from one controller. In this case, the turnout control switch is usually mechanically locked together with a cutout switch for the 2nd controller, so throwing the turnouts disables the 2nd controller and routes power to the second loop at the same time. This is the safe way, but requires this mechanical interlocking, which is fully supported by Tomix control switches.

[Paroan24]

KVP,  Thanks so much for the information.  This is all starting to make sense to me.  One last question:  My layout will be narrow (2-2 1/2 feet) since it will be in my garage but will be about 18 feet long.  Will any of the Tomix controllers handle a loop of this size or do I need to look for something specific in the controller?

[velotrain]

Velotrain, So if I have 2 loops connected by 2 manual switches, I can put a controller on each loop and as long as the switches are set for each loop, the 2 trains will run ok?  If I remove 1 train and move the switch can I run that train on both loops with the 1 controller or do I have to change to the 2nd controller once it crosses over?

 

Yes - but kvp discuses this in more detail. 

 

Since Tomix turnouts are power routing, a train connected to a controller will run wherever the turnouts are aligned for, with the proviso that there are no conflicting electrical issues.

[Paroan24]

Thanks Velotrain, I appreciate your help.  Any idea about my question regarding controller capability compared to my size layout I mention above?

[velotrain]

Any idea about my question regarding controller capability compared to my size layout I mention above?

 

kvp and other electronics types can give you more specific info.

 

I'd say you should be OK, but if you find your engines struggling at the far end (or side, depending where you connect), you might want to run an extra set of feeder cables for more reliable/consistent power.

 

One other note - if you can do it, I'd go for a 3' width, which will allow wider end curves, and will guess that 2' would be quite unsatisfying - not to mention looking unrealistic.  If you want to run Shinkansens, check on the required minimum radius.

[bill937ca]

Kato makes a track piece for connecting Kato track to Tomix track.  The piece number is 20-045. In the US this is known as Snap Track Conversion Track, but it is the same piece sold in Japan for connecting to Tomix track. Add a Kato feeder track section (20-041) and you can use a Kato controller to power your Tomix track.

Edited September 2, 2016 by bill937ca

[Paroan24]

Bill937ca,  Are you saying a Kato controller would be better than a Tomix?  

[katoftw]

I don't see how you got that from what Bill wrote.

 

Tomix controller cost a little more but have one extra feature than Kato.  Constant lighting...  If you need this feature, go for Tomix.

 

You don't need to match your tracks to your controllers.  You've worked with flex before, so you have soldering experience.  You can mix and match controller by simply cutting wires and soldering.

[Paroan24]

Katoftw,   The reason I said that in response to Bill is why would I do a special connector in order to use a Kato controller unless it has some benefit.  As I said in my original post, I already have one Tomix controller so if I were to get another it makes sense to me to just get another Tomix unless there are special reasons to go with Kato which it does not sound like the case.

 

Actually I have no soldering experience.  The flex track I used years ago fit together like any track with connectors.  No soldering was needed.  Plus I like the look of the Tomix fine track much better than the flex or other track I see and since I already have a bunch of it, it makes sense to get the rest to match.

 

Thanks

[katoftw]

If you already have Tomix.  Then stay with that option.

 

The point you missed was "if" you want to attach a non Tomix controller (which you asked about in the first post), the suggestions in following posts for conversion pieces and extra add-ons aren't needed.  Simple cutting and soldering is all that is needed.

[kvp]

I would say that staying with one brand of controller minimizes the chance of a problem in case the two gets shorted together by accident. In theory it possible to mix all brands though. Just make sure you plug all into the same power strip and turn on-off all of them together (usually by a switch on the power strip) This eliminates most possible faults.

 

For larger layouts, it's common to put in a feeder every 1-2 meters and most manufacturers make long Y cables for them that can be plugged together as an extension/distribution cable with the controller on one end and one feeder hanging on each end. This cable provides enough voltage and current everywhere without increasing the controller's output above a level that would be dangerous for the trains. The whole system is plug and play with no soldering required as long as you don't try to mix different brands of electrical equipment. (the trains are usually compatible across brands)

[Paroan24]

After reading all the responses I have pretty much decided to stick to all Tomix track.  I will set up a trolley on the Tomix tram track with one Tomix controller.  Then I will set up 2 connected loops that will run about 3 x 15 feet each and put a Tomix controller on each.  I just have to order more track and another controller which I will do through Japan Plaza on Ebay.

 

Thanks everyone!

[velotrain]

I just have to order more track and another controller which I will do through Japan Plaza on Ebay.

Two notes.

 

First, I would recommend making the second controller a 600, so it has the capability of working with advanced TCS components should

you ever wish to try them in the future.

 

Second, while PJ is convenient, it is "usually" more expensive than other Japanese suppliers. Hobby Search is a large popular store,

but far from the cheapest. Two that many forum members use are David at Loco 1 Hobby and Nariichi at Model Train Plus. AmiAmi is

perhaps the cheapest, but less English language friendly than the previous mentioned ones.

 

One major benefit of working with David and Nariichi is that they will allow you to shop for a few days to a week or so (or longer) and hold your items for a combined shipment. There is a lot of info in the vendors Forum.

 

Try pricing a few things you initially want at multiple stores and make your own decision.

[cteno4]

Paroran,

 

Glad you have Sussex out here. Sticking to all tomix track and controllers will make it simpler to play with as you won't need to cut any wires to match the correct controller plug to the correct track wire connector.mas folks have mentioned it's easy to do this splicing and it's very easy soldering. Don't be scared of learning some simple wire soldering as its something anyone can easily learn to do (I started at age 4 and I've taught 5-89 years olds to do it in 10 minutes!) and under $20 in tools to do basic stuff. it's all about just practicing some. There a few threads here on getting started and a huge amount of video tutorials on YouTube there to help as well! As you move forward a little wiring soldering will be of big help, like lighting buildings and such or more sophisticated track wiring.

 

Do check the wall wart on your old tomix controller to make sure it is not a 100v supply as this won't be happy on North America 110-120v. While they can take it, it can burn them out and even catch fire. Getting a $20 drop down transformer for it would be wise or at least living it unplugged when not using it. Newer tomix controllers have more universal wall warts.

 

The tomix constant lighting is a feature on many of the tomix controllers and not others. It sends a high frequency power pulse along with the regular DC that drive the motor. The lighting units you can install in the cars can run on this high frequency current war the regular DC is off and the motor basically won't respond to the high frequency current, so the car lighting stays on while the train is stopped and you can adjust this brightness separate from the motor current. This feature works with most Japanese trains and lighting units. Neat feature. With regular just DC control the lights in the cars will only be on if there is power there moving the train and the brightness is a function how fast the train is running!

 

Dcc is a bit of work on most Japanese trains except the newer Kato trains, some of which now have drop in decoder slots. It's always something you can grow into of you want. Basically lets you have multiple trains running on the same piece/loop of track and control them independently. The track gets full power and there is basically an Internet like communication that goes from your Dcc controllers over the track to the dcc decoder in the train to set how much power goes from the track to the motor to set speed. Also can turn lights on and off and even do sounds! But it does add a good cost to your trains as many Japanese passenger trains come with directional lighting in the end cars (headlight/tail light) that auto change in plain DC operation but with dcc you would need a decoder in each end car (as well as the motor car to control speed as they are usually a center car) to control the light proper with travel direction. Also there is a little fiddling in the "programming" of the decoders. This is not programming in the regular sense but abit of button pushing to set up the decoder numbering (each decoder gets a number for the controller to talk to it and tell it what to do) and set the decoder functions. It's nothing most all model railroaders cannot learn, but takes some learning,mrp active and money. As time goes on here it is getting easier and cheaper. But always something you can grow into later. You can ecen wire the layout to flip between either running DC or dcc. Technically many dcc trains can run on dcc and visa versa but usually not well.

 

Like folks have explained with DC operation when you have two loops/lines/circuits and each have their own controller you run the single train on that loop. You can have the crossover switches between the two, but you need to make sure to put insulated joiners at the crossover point so as not to short the two controllers when the points are switched to crossover. Also need to have the controllers set in the same direction, of course, when crossing over a train as if not you can short the controllers out thru your motor car when one truck is on one side and the other the other!

 

For your long loop of 15' you may need 3-6 power feeders for each loop, like every 4-8' of track. Tomix and Kato sectional track is pretty hardy and good connections, but the longer the distance the more rail joiners in there and you can get a voltage drop at each potentially. You can start with a couple of feeders at opposite sides and see if you get a slow up at the middle point between your feeders. If you do and this annoys you you can put a couple more in in the middle of each section and see of it fixes it. Sometimes you can hunt down one or two bad joiners that are the major offenders and work on bending them in to contact better or replace them.

 

You can break your loop down into electrically isolated blocks and get fancy with detectors to run two trains at once with DC and extra automatic controller system, but that takes more equipment, wiring, learning and money, but always something you can grow into if you want later. Tomix has some plug and play systems to do some automation like this. You can say run a train for a loop then it stops in the station and stops and another train on a passing siding is moved out and run on the loop, then repeat.

 

Fist just play! The great thing about the tomix sectional track is you can just fiddle a lot and play with running. Plop down colored paper or fabric under the track for ground cover and plop buildings down and more color paper cut up for roads. You can even make wadded paper and masking tape landscaping to get ideas to go more 3D! Even chop up cardboard to make rough building or print out free buildings from PDF files and jsut tape them together to fill in and try ideas. You can also experiment with scenery techniques by making little scenery patches or surrounding bases under buildings with a bit of thin stryene. It's a great way to learn new scenery techniques and see which you like and speak to you and your skills and needs as these can be unique person to person. Gives you little patches of scenery that liven things up and give you new ideas and mixing and matching playing. These can even be plated into larger more perminant scenery later! Here is a good example of that.

 

Keep asking questions and playing! Keep us posted on what you come up with and start your own layout thread.

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

[Paroan24]

Velotrain,  Thanks for the info, I will definitely check out those 2 sellers.

 

Cten04,  Thank you for all that information.  I understand what you are saying about having the extra feeders but not sure how I do that.  The Tomix controller I have currently just has one slot where the feeder wire plugs in.  How would I add more?

[velotrain]

I understand what you are saying about having the extra feeders but not sure how I do that.  The Tomix controller I have currently just has one slot where the feeder wire plugs in.  How would I add more?

See kvp's message about the Y cables. I don't know if there are any limitations as to how much you can stack them up - 2 levels will get you four plugs, 3 levels eight, etc.

[cteno4]

Yep either the y cables or just get more feeders and cut them and connect all th track wires to a single tomix controller plug.

You can solder them or just twist them together well and tape or use a little terminal block to screw the bare wires in.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10A-Dual-Row-Terminal-Block-12-Position-Barrier-Strip-Connector-Cable-Wire-/282077898016?hash=item41ad272520:g:CeEAAOSwc1FXbNx3

 

Terminal blocks are great as you can do a lot of wiring with them with jsut bare wire and also do jumper wires if needed w.in the block to do something more sophisticated.

 

I can draw you a diagram or wire one up with some Picts to show you if you want.

 

Jeff