what would you do with 12 foot by 4 foot?

[Staffy]

accessible on one long side and two short sides...

 

and limited budget

 

in a garage

 

I've made the space but now I don't know how to fill it!

[katoftw]

That is a nice size.  Limited budget is the killer.  Good size but budget means go small.

 

A 4x12 foot table allows a double shinkansen viaduct, and double ground level urban/suburban loop and a single frieght/rural line loops.  not just normal ovals, but some dents in it to not look like just a regular round-roundy.

 

Station/s could be 8 cars long.

[enoden]

Here are three photos to give you some ideas.  The European themed layout in two of the photos measures 3 feet by 14 feet.  The Japanese themed layout in the third photo is 12.5 feet long by 5 feet wide. 

[kvp]

I would say a double track dogbone layout with either one larger or two smaller stations. For a mixed shinkansen/cape gauge layout i would go with a larger station and put the shinkansen on a viaduct with the conventional tracks at ground level. There is space for a yard too. It might be possible to squeeze in a single track branchline somewhere.

 

A small budget means more home made terrain and less off the shelf tracks/buildings. Grass and flock is much cheaper and you can make trees and rock surfaces too.

 

If it's up against a wall, then yard at the front, then the ground level station and the elevated shinkansen station behind it with any mountains/backdrops at the wall. Village/city to the sides with the partially hidden dogbone loops at the two ends.

[velotrain]

One possible approach with the limited budget is to approach it in stages, but with the assumption that you'd like to get something running sooner or later.  I see two possible ways to approach this:

 

1.  Build a 4' x 12' table, but treat it as a floor for the time being, and just put down temporary layouts.  This could also help you discover / define what interests you most - operations, train watching, some of each, etc.

 

2.  When you do think you have a "final" trackplan, implement it in steps.  Perhaps lay the track "permanently" on one end, and then work on the structures and scenery.  The rest of the track could be laid on a temporary basis, and not even all at once.  Perhaps just one Shinkansen track, and one regional track, and maybe a freight / shunting line.

 

Since you're having hesitation, the worst thing you could do is quickly commit to a plan for the entire space and start building it - no doubt there are folks here who can confirm the dangers of doing that.  Build and operate multiple types of temporary layouts while you develop your interests and thoughts.

[velotrain]

> with any mountains/backdrops at the wall

 

With a 4' deep layout backed against a wall, you already have a serious construction / operation access problem for anything deeper than about 30" (some might say 24").  If at all possible, try to add a 18-24" access lane between the wall and layout.  If you have any tunnels in the mountains against the wall, this will be absolutely necessary, as there is no other way to gain access to the tracks.

 

One possibility might be to build a really sturdy table and put it on lockable casters, allowing it to be moved for construction and later access, and then backed against the wall for operation.  Of course, this assumes an absolutely level floor - perhaps someone builds sprung casters?

 

A device such as this Micro Mark Topside Creeper can be helpful, but no substitute for direct access - not to mention that it takes up a fair amount of space by itself.

 

Edited July 21, 2016 by velotrain

[Kiha66]

A great place I've looked at for inspiration is Kato's published plans.

http://www.katomodels.com/unitrackplan/

[cteno4]

Yeah the 4' deep against a wall is a killer to get access to the rear 1-2' area. You can reach in and work up to 24" ok but past that it's not easy! Experiment some trying to set things up and work on them at arms length over a table and it will tell you fast the depth your reach will work at well and where it will fail. It's different for everyone, but starts to get difficult for most at about 24".

 

When young I did a 3/4" scale model of the whole Monterey bay aquarium with all the tanks (no water but the main two big talks could take water!) and exhibits modeled in it. Many areas I had to get 4' in to work on things and could only do so by a trapeze system Hung from the rafters (luckily we were in an old open truss warehouse to do this. I would have across my chest to lean in with my toes braced on a tall cart and float over the model, and hope I did not slip! Was not fun after 5 minutes...

 

I've tried the micromark unit and it would be hard at 4' deep to use it and it's a rather bulky item to get in and out of and around the layout. Also not for a budget.

 

I would suggest maybe a modified dogbone with two 4x4' at each end any maybe a 24-30" deep X 4' in the center against the wall. Would give more access.

 

Or think of having it on wheels so you can pull it away from the wall to get at it to work on from the back as well. You can find some inexpensive rolling carts you could just bolt your layout framework to. I was looking at using the 48" X 18" metal wire shelving units you can get cheap for a basement layout I was planning with the idea of each section being on one or two of these carts (cut them down to 28" high) so they could be moved easily to work on then rejoined.

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

[velotrain]

I would suggest maybe a modified dogbone with two 4x4' at each end any maybe a 24-30" deep X 4' in the center against the wall. Would give more access.

 

A variation would be to have this opening at the rear.  The main lines could run in a narrow strip along the wall, some 4-6" wide, with a lightweight, scenery-only ~18" x ~4' lift-out section in front of them.  This would mean that all the tracks aren't bunched into a narrower section in the middle, and still provide ~24" access to everywhere on the layout.  This could be a tunneled section, with the portals built into the permanent end sections.  However, the mountain wouldn't need to occupy the entire section.  Alternately, there could be rice paddies (or whatever scenery was desired) along the straight section against the wall.

 

If a future move is at all possible, you might consider building the layout in three 4' square sections.  The track and scenery could be continuous, but having a modular base would greatly facilitate a potential separation and rejoining of the segments. 

[katoftw]

If a future move is at all possible, you might consider building the layout in three 4' square sections.  The track and scenery could be continuous, but having a modular base would greatly facilitate a potential separation and rejoining of the segments. 

Or allow for future expansion.

 

Your advice in this thread Charles has been really good.  Even got me think about my own bigger layout.  And ways to stagger it's development.

[velotrain]

Your advice in this thread Charles has been really good.  

 

You just made Jeff very happy  ;-)

[railsquid]

My main layout area is 300 x 90 cm (ca. 10 x 3 feet) at 75cm high, up against a wall and hemmed in by other furniture so not feasible to put on wheels. Access to the rear 15cm or so is certainly tricky; most of that will be occupied by an elevated double-track section which is won't require much in the way of scenic detail, and is just about reachable for track cleaning / derailment clearance. One 90x30cm section at the front will be detachable to provide access to the rear corner and main station at one end (I'll possibly also use that to swap in alternative scenery one day...), the other end will need to be completely removable for access to the air conditioning unit above, so I'll need to arrange things like wiring to be modular, and scenery won't be fixed in place (that will make it easier to work on it anyway).

[ToniBabelony]

Hmm... For a roughly 3650 x 1210 mm space and a limited budget, I'd recommend it also to be built in stages and modular. With such a space available, personally, I'd first start with a landscape oriented corner module to practice skills on and expand from that onward. The layout would be built along the walls, single track, with either an terminal station at the ends, or create a massive (dogbone style) loop with the single track visually separated on different levels (lower track and upper track).

 

I've attached a very quick sketch on how things could be done with little materials and little track useage. This would allow for one or two trains to run simultaneously with two stations and perhaps a hidden staging yard somewhere as well. Depending on where you would like to direct your finances, this plan could be built upon (adding a line, double tracks, etc.)

[Staffy]

Thanks for all replies, very interesting, really appreciate people giving their time and experience to help.

 

Ive already built 3 boards of 4'x4' but as noted it quickly became obvious that access to the rear half of the layout will be a serious issue, especially as Ive got it at chest height to help my back.  Now is the time to change it!

 

An operating well in the centre seemed the orthodox solution but the middle 4' section is complicated a little by there being a small ingress of brick wall, only maybe 3 inches but it makes a difference when implementing an operating well in the centre.

 

I stuck a couple of 4'x18 inch boards either side of the middle section to see how big the well was and it was very narrow, difficult to turn round in. 

 

It appeared to me you really need 2x2 to have a comfortable operating well and to get that I would need my middle section to be on two 4x1' boards (or variations thereof) and in my ignorance I was concerned that this eats up the main section of the layout.

 

So it seems the suggestions of having a removable smaller well in the centre for emergencies is the way to go, with thin section along the wall (how wide would this need to be?).  This also helps with the idea of the railway moving through the landscape rather than around it which is important to me.

 

Not hugely bothered about operations.  I like watching trains move through Japan, but feel that I will still want something 'to do' in this square footage, albeit very awkwardly sized.  As the middle section will be the main section, is ~2 foot enough to do something worthwhile?

 

Casters are a good idea but the layout is placed on top of on two garage tables at the moment, would mean I need to build a lot of legs and im not sure my woodworking is up to the accuracy required!

 

I had wondered whether, actually, reducing it to 12x3 is an option - albeit still going to be tricky to reach the last foot.

Edited July 22, 2016 by Staffy

[railsquid]

I'd give up on the idea of using the whole space for the layout - as an operating well is going to be too constrained, I'd suggest (as kvp mentions) a dogbone/dumbbel style layout, which is say 2'6" or 2'9" deep along the middle, but up to 4' deep at the ends where the loops are and you can better access from all sides.

Edited July 22, 2016 by railsquid

[kvp]

I think there might be a misunderstanding. Toni's plan show a closed area, accessible only on one short side, while Staffy's description has a 12 by 4 feet rectangular area next to a wall, accessible on 3 sides. (usually a workbench or a storage shelf is placed this way, along the back wall) I would assume this is what is available.

 

The length is not too much, only a bit more than 3.6 meters, but the depth is hard to reach when operating. One possible solution is to build in the operating space and make the middle of the layout narrower, allowing easier access to the station, while the larger loops could be reached from the sides too.

 

For modular construction, i would say the two loops and the station could form 3 modules that are easily connectable and easier to move than a single layout. This also allows the middle module to be made narrower, so it's easier to access it. A movable operator's desk with all control equipment could be fitted before it (slightly lower than the layout), so the whole setup is still filling the available space, but the desk could be pushed under the layout to access the trains. Having a clean desk with the controls and some work area is also nice if you prefer to pack/unpack your trains on a flat table, right next to the layout.

[ToniBabelony]

My suggestion was just a suggestion to keep the layout thin, long and accessible at all points, not a classic centrally placed layout with spaghetti rails on top.

[velotrain]

I've attached a very quick sketch on how things could be done with little materials and little track useage.

 

Toni - if this plan is intended to fit in Staffy's 4' x 12' space, the return loops would be about 4-5" radius?

[ToniBabelony]

Toni - if this plan is intended to fit in Staffy's 4' x 12' space, the return loops would be about 4-5" radius?

It'd work for an interurban xD

[Staffy]

right so now from your help I have a choice

 

dog bone with 4x4 end sections and a 30 inch x 4 foot middle section. put the boards out for this, looks fine, reaching over is right on the limit of acceptable but probably ok

 

or remove the 4ft boards, use the 6ft x 33 inch workbenches end to end to give just under 12x3 and have them permanently pulled 1ft out from the wall for access. I've tried this, you wouldn't want to spend a lot of time back there but it would be ok for retrieving derailments/basic scenery

 

which would you choose?

[velotrain]

I'd say it's your choice and there shouldn't be a rush to judgment.

 

You seem to have some idea of what you want to operate, so try drawing some trackplans to see what fits onto either approach, and then make a call.

 

Or - even buy some track (hopefully that you could use with either approach) and try some things out before you commit.

 

 

> "thin section along the wall (how wide would this need to be?)."

 

I should think 4" would do it - if this is hidden track.  Regional line on the bottom, and Shinkansen elevated above it.  You can use the end sections to separate the lines before they enter the visual layout.

[katoftw]

Agreed, it is your choice and only you know your back limitations.  If you already have the 4x4' panels made as you said you have, then trial both options.

 

Dog bone - Get the middle panel and offset it by one foot to the outside 2 panels.  See if you have enough room for access.  Even try 1.5' offset.

 

3x12' - measure and draw a line on all 3 panels to represent 3x4 panels.

Edited July 22, 2016 by katoftw

[cteno4]

Staffy,

 

Any hope of wheels on your benches? The you could maybe do two 4x6 and pull away from the wall a foot or two when needed to get back there to work on things?

 

If finances are limited do you have any tables hanging around you could set up and just plop some track on to begin Playing with things? This may help to narrow interests in some and get you going sooner than getting the full, final tables in there.

 

Another question is how handy are you doing any bench construction? This could also help you decide if you need to use more prebuilt tables, carts, etc or are free to construct your own to suit.

 

I would opt to the dogbone over the 3' x12' with the narrow back slot as any you loose using a good backdrop (it would need to be low) which is nice with a one sided layout main view, but don't get to use the backside isle as a viewing perspective of the layout (the Bennie of a walk around layout). Double viaduct is just under 3' wide so if you use that it is at the end up wit the track right at the edges.

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

[velotrain]

Staffy - I just noticed your post on the Scenic Ridge topic, 
"I've agonised over getting this kit for months"

 

I assumed you had some layout experience, but this makes me think otherwise.

 

If that's the case, I think it would be foolish to start with something 3' or 4' x 12'.  There's much too high a percentage that you would become dissatisfied with it later - if not sooner.  Just because you have the space available doesn't mean that you need to try to fill it right away.

 

Since budget is an issue, why not start with a smaller layout on a hollow-core door or similar.  That would provide enough space and wide enough curves to run any stock you want to.  Not only will you learn construction techniques from track-laying to scenery, but the experience will help you form much better ideas for the larger layout, and you could recycle the electronics, track and structures if you approach it with that in mind.  Plus, it could have some portability - if you'd have any interest in taking it to local shows and/or clubs.

[Staffy]

that's an interesting point...I planned to just work up one section at a time

...but it would be better to complete something smaller? I assume that would mean I would have to delay the shinkansen?

 

this would be my first layout and I'm fully expecting it to be rubbish but learn a lot from it