Both Gauges

[keiichi77]

Hey guys, just wondering if there is any rail equipment (EMU or DMU) in Japan that has both a narrow and standard gauge version.   I think it would be interesting to see how much further the trucks would stick out if narrow gauge equipment was used on a standard gauge line. I have seen the opposite on the Newfoundland Railway in Canada where standard gauge equipment was put on narrow gauge trucks....you often wondered how the cars didn't tip off the tracks.

[kvp]

First, there is the Gauge Change Train, that could switch between cape and standard gauge:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_Change_Train

 

And then the 701-5000 series that runs on the standard gauge Tazawako and Ou main lines:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/701_series#701-5000_series

 

Also, the mini shinkansen are built for narrow gauge profile, with standard gauge bogies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-shinkansen

 

Actually the looks are almost the same as for the standard gauge british loading gauge. The bogie width difference is (1435-1000)/2=217mm (8.5 inch or 0.7 foot) to both sides. Visible, but only if you are looking for it as the gauge difference is more apparent by looking at the rails.

[JR 500系]

I thought the E3 or E6 is the same standard 1435 mm gauge? Refer to the detailed post by Erick sometime back here:

 

http://www.jnsforum.com/community/topic/9985-details-of-technology-of-gauge-changing-for-mini-shinkansen/?p=114439

 

The only free-gauge or changing gauge train so far is still experimental, also posted by Erick sometime back:

 

 

Another video that explains changing gauge even clearly, and seems to be official JR West material:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CA3H_0DUOSU

Edited July 19, 2016 by JR 500系

[Nick_Burman]

Most of Kintetsu's rolling stock exists in both gauges. In fact the company switches trains back and forth between gauges as needed using a special bogie transfer shed located at Kashihara Jingu-mae, the point where the 1435 and 1067mm ga. divisions meet.

 

Cheers NB

[korat]

Eidan/Tokyo Metro 01 series as well. The 4 cars in use with Kumamoto Dentetsu were converted to 1067mm.

[Kitayama]

Not Japan - but related to keiichi77's post:

Standard gauge equipment on narrow gauge (891 mm) trucks.

[westfalen]

How about the standard gauge locos used for maintanence on the Shinkansen.

 

eg; standard gauge version of the DD13.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%9B%BD%E9%89%84DD13%E5%BD%A2%E3%83%87%E3%82%A3%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BC%E3%83%AB%E6%A9%9F%E9%96%A2%E8%BB%8A#/media/File:912_hakata_200910.jpg

[bikkuri bahn]

Other than shinkansen, most mainline rolling stock shares the same loading gauge, regardless of the track gauge.  So things like bogies are scaled (bolsters, equalizers, frames, wheel diameters, etc.)to the carbodies built to that loading gauge (axle loads figure in this too, likely). Hence you don't have gross mismatches of large carbodies running on teeny tiny bogies.  As Nick B mentioned, the most readily observable case is Kintetsu, AFAIK the carbodies are more or less identical in dimensions between 1067mm and standard gauge lines.  This webpage has some pics of rolling stock side by side at Kashihara Jingumae- eyeballing, they appear to be identical loading gauges:

http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/mocchin_1970/26045949.html

Edited July 20, 2016 by bikkuri bahn

[kvp]

Since the japanese cape gauge loading gauge is very similar to the UK standard gauge loading gauge, you don't really see a big difference between these cars running on either gauge, just bogies that are 1.4 foot wider (0.7 to one side) on standard gauge. The wheels and bogie dimensions are pretty much the same for both gauges, only the wheel distance is a little bit different. The result is a train width that is a bit on the larger side for cape gauge and a bit on the smaller side for standard gauge, but looks good with both.

 

On the other hand, the shinkansen loading gauge is much larger and much closer (even a bit exceeding) the european standard gauge international loading gauge, so a full width and height shinkansen (like an E4) would look bad with cape gauge bogies. You could actually place a fully loaded, cape gauge container car into a full width shinkansen loading gauge freight car, including the cape gauge rails it needs.

[Kitayama]

A question:

Does this type of snow clearing vehicle exist both in narrow gauge and standard gauge versions?

This one is on the Shinkansen side of Ōmagari station (Akita Shinkansen).

 

Edited July 20, 2016 by Kitayama

[westfalen]

The fact that the Orient Express cars were able to run in Japan by just replacing the bogies shows how generous the Japanese 3'6" loading gauge is.

[bikkuri bahn]

The fact that the Orient Express cars were able to run in Japan by just replacing the bogies shows how generous the Japanese 3'6" loading gauge is.

Yes, in fact the Japanese zairaisen loading gauge is closer to the UIC international "pass everywhere" or Berne loading gauge in width than the British W6 loading gauge, specifically in width- it's 3000mm compared to UIC 3150mm and GB W6 2820mm.

[kvp]

I remember seeing an old video about the orient express cars in Japan. Some platforms were way too close and either the platform edges or the tracks had to be moved. Also, the orient express cars were built to the old legacy loading gauge that was also known as the prussian interchange standard. This limited the length of the cars to around 20-21 meters and the width to 2830, not to mention using a rather low roofline. These orient express cars actually ran on the british network for some time even in regular service. (with sleepers and one baggage from London Victoria on boat to France and then connected up with the rest in Paris) So the fact that they could almost run on the japanese network without modifying too much is imho not a big deal. Even standard 1950ies east european commuter cars could run on the japanese network. (same dimensions, 21 meters long, 2830 mm wide, slightly narrowed near the ends, very low roofline)

 

The 3000mm japanese loading gauge is only usable on some routes and usually only with specially shaped cars that are narrower at platform height. (down to the british loading gauge) This is something that is only prevalent in Japan and the UK. (also present on many legacy networks, like the chicago elevated) Even this wider loading gauge would pose a problem for some larger german sets (using G1/G2 gauge) even if we disregard the platform edges.

 

And then there is the shinkansen loading gauge and the wide E1 with 3430 mm, that would not even fit into the european standard of 3150 (G1 aka. Berne gauge).

 

ps: The trick with the cape gauge loading gauge in Japan is that it may be 3000 at window height (e231: 2950), but goes down to 2800 at platform height (103 series) and the car length is limited for full width cars to around 20-21 meters, while longer european cars are around 26.5-28.6 meters long. These small differences are comparable to the differences in the rail gauges, so most people would not see it unless it's specifically noted.

[Nick_Burman]

These orient express cars actually ran on the british network for some time even in regular service. (with sleepers and one baggage from London Victoria on boat to France and then connected up with the rest in Paris)

 

kvp,

 

Although they looked the same, the coaches used on the London-Paris train were different from standard CIWL "S" coaches as they were built to the British profile. The coaches used on the Japan tour were ordinary "S" cars, built to the Prussian composite loading gauge as you mentioned.

 

Cheers NB

[keiichi77]

Thanks for the links and replies. From the pictures in the link bikkuri bahn provided, there really isn't too much of a visible difference between Japanese Cape Gauge equipment sitting on standard gauge trucks. I often wondered if standards gauge trucks would stick out past the car bodies on standard Cape Gauge equipment but as kvp said "The result is a train width that is a bit on the larger side for cape gauge and a bit on the smaller side for standard gauge, but looks good with both."  :)