Train crash in Italy leaves 23 dead

[cteno4]

ROME — Two passenger trains collided head-on in the Puglia region of southern Italy on Tuesday morning, killing at least 23 people and injuring dozens more, some of them critically

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/13/world/europe/italy-train-crash.html?smprod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36774059

 

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/12/europe/italy-train-collision/

 

Very sad.

[Matteo_IT]

At the moment fatalities are 27 and injuried are more than 50, lots are severe injuried.

 

http://www.tgcom24.mediaset.it/cronaca/puglia/frontale-tra-treni-in-puglia-27-morti-e-cinquanta-feriti-un-bimbo-estratto-vivo-dalle-lamiere_3019769-201602a.shtml

Edited July 12, 2016 by Matteo_IT

[Matteo_IT]

In that line there is singletrack and the separation between the two stations (Andria and Corato) is called "blocco telefonico" (telephonic block), it consist in the station A calls by telephone the station B before send train from A to B, once B gives the OK, A send the train towards B.

At the moment, it seems the calling by telephone didn't happen...

[Densha]

They should just get to installing a proper train protection system then. Almost every time an accident like this happens anywhere on the globe it is because of human failure. And human failure just happens; nothing you can do about it. But you can install a proper train protection system to add a very thick layer of safety.

[Nick_Burman]

They should just get to installing a proper train protection system then. Almost every time an accident like this happens anywhere on the globe it is because of human failure. And human failure just happens; nothing you can do about it. But you can install a proper train protection system to add a very thick layer of safety.

 

Most of the railway has such system installed - it just that small section which was missing....

[westfalen]

Is telephone block working common in Italy?  Even good old fashioned staff and ticket would be an improvement.

[kvp]

Sad news. Telephone block or it's predecessor the telegraph block was in use all over the world in the late 19th century and apparently went out of fashion as the simple 2 wire station to station signalling/interlocking was invented. It's only used for budget reasons on lines that usually have only a single train working.

 

Staff/ticket is only usable on lines that have symmetric traffic as the token has to get back to the other end of the block and if a traffic pattern is mostly unidirectional during a certain time of a day (like morning and evening commuter flow), then it's not usable at all. The british solution from the 80ies was the radio token system, where the token is transmitted as audible signals between the digital radios of the dispatcher and the train drivers. In theory, this allows completly unstaffed stations along an mostly unsignalled line. The system is also usable for station to station interlocked signalling using a conventional telephone line.

 

For this line, according to the information awailable, it was a quiet country line until recently (since 2008) when suburban commuter traffic from another company also started running on it. This lead to double tracking and speed upgrades along the line, except at a few places, where apparently only the speed upgrade was done without signalling upgrades.

 

ps: Most of the news talk about two 4 car trains, but it looks like to me, that the high floor set was only 3 cars long and only 2 cars of the low floor flirt got completly destroyed.

[Nick_Burman]

Is telephone block working common in Italy?  Even good old fashioned staff and ticket would be an improvement.

 

Yes, on low-traffic secondary lines, especially those belonging to the "ferrovie in concessione" ("railways under concession", the old term for today's non-Trenitalia operated railways). It's a hangover from the (heavy) historical French influence on the railway system, several lines in France are still dispatched via telephone.

 

Trenitalia (or rather RFI, the infrastructure operator) by and large has the habit of extending block signalling to its secondary lines, including the Treviso to Belluno line where I got stuck for an hour in a remote station because a severe electrical storm put the signalling system out of commission...

 

 

Cheers NB

[Nick_Burman]

For this line, according to the information awailable, it was a quiet country line until recently (since 2008) when suburban commuter traffic from another company also started running on it. This lead to double tracking and speed upgrades along the line, except at a few places, where apparently only the speed upgrade was done without signalling upgrades.

 

ps: Most of the news talk about two 4 car trains, but it looks like to me, that the high floor set was only 3 cars long and only 2 cars of the low floor flirt got completly destroyed.

 

kvp,

 

 

The Bari - Barletta (via Andria and Bitonto, to differentiate from the FS mainline following the coast) was built as a 750mm gauge steam tramway in 1881. It lasted in this form until 1950 when it closed and was replaced by a new, electrified, standard gauge railway on a slightly different alignment, a task which was only finished in...1965! The line was never really quiet - the area is densely populated even by southern Italian standards and the line is an important commuting connection to and from Bari. With the growth of the suburbs and towns along the line traffic has gone up, requiring doubletracking and block signalling. The opening of the branch to Bari Airport has also helped increase volumes. However there sre still a couple of sections where the line is still single-track and devoid of signalling (other than maybe distant, home and departure signals).

 

Cheers NB

[Ronny]

Is telephone block working common in Italy?  Even good old fashioned staff and ticket would be an improvement.

No, telephone block in no more in use on RFI (state-owned ralway network, RFI is infrastructure) for years. In use on few private-owned (generally owned by the Regions) line like the one of the accident. Bari-Barletta via Bitonto and Andria is property of Puglia region and operated by Ferrotramviaria Spa.

For Nick_Burman a small clarification: Trenitalia (passenger operator), Mercitalia (freight operator) and RFI are both state-owned but are separate companies

Edited July 13, 2016 by Ronny

[Matteo_IT]

In Italy, the lines managed by RFI are not by telephone block.

Is no possible, in example, start from A towards B in a single track line only by telephone. The most simple system is the manual block but the system, before give the green to A start signal, check if track between A and B is cleat of trains, or by a simple electric circuit orby axles counter.

Only in case of failure, the A start signal can't became green, so, it must A and B traffic managers check any last train arrived on their own station, then once the A-B leg is clear, A calls B and declares last train from B to A is arrived , B declares last train from A to B arrived, then A requires clearance to B and B cleares to A. All this by phone but writted. But as A start signal and B home signal can't became "open" (they stay RED), the A traffic manager give to driver a sheet with clearance to start with red signal and declaration of "clear to go as exist ctelephonic clearance between A and B. Once train has reached B home signal, of course red, and stops, the B traffic manager give to train another clearance sheet with clearance to enter in B with red signal.   

RFI lines are all electric block:

Automatic, axles counter or manual in double track.

Axles counter or manual in single track.

As I told, telephone block is used only if a failure of system is in act,in example if the system is all under failure (block detection and then signals) but is very hard it happens.

I can tell this because I'm a train driver so I know well the system.

[westfalen]

Staff/ticket is only usable on lines that have symmetric traffic as the token has to get back to the other end of the block and if a traffic pattern is mostly unidirectional during a certain time of a day (like morning and evening commuter flow), then it's not usable at all.

Not correct, staff and ticket working allows as many trains to follow one another as you like.  Only the last train in a particular direction has to take the staff, preceding trains take a written ticket as their authority to travel over the section which are kept in a box locked by the staff so that the staff for the section has to present before a train can be despatched, the driver also has to physically sight the staff as an extra safety check.

In Italy, the lines managed by RFI are not by telephone block.

Is no possible, in example, start from A towards B in a single track line only by telephone. The most simple system is the manual block but the system, before give the green to A start signal, check if track between A and B is cleat of trains, or by a simple electric circuit orby axles counter.

Only in case of failure, the A start signal can't became green, so, it must A and B traffic managers check any last train arrived on their own station, then once the A-B leg is clear, A calls B and declares last train from B to A is arrived , B declares last train from A to B arrived, then A requires clearance to B and B cleares to A. All this by phone but writted. But as A start signal and B home signal can't became "open" (they stay RED), the A traffic manager give to driver a sheet with clearance to start with red signal and declaration of "clear to go as exist ctelephonic clearance between A and B. Once train has reached B home signal, of course red, and stops, the B traffic manager give to train another clearance sheet with clearance to enter in B with red signal.   

RFI lines are all electric block:

Automatic, axles counter or manual in double track.

Axles counter or manual in single track.

As I told, telephone block is used only if a failure of system is in act,in example if the system is all under failure (block detection and then signals) but is very hard it happens.

I can tell this because I'm a train driver so I know well the system.

Good to hear from a fellow train driver.

 

I thought it would be something like that.  On Queensland Rail a driver always has to have some sort of physical authority to enter a single track section whether it be a proceed aspect in a signal, a staff or a written authority.

 

It will be interesting to hear what happened in this case.

[NXCALE]

In Italy, the lines managed by RFI are not by telephone block.

Is no possible, in example, start from A towards B in a single track line only by telephone. The most simple system is the manual block but the system, before give the green to A start signal, check if track between A and B is cleat of trains, or by a simple electric circuit orby axles counter.

Only in case of failure, the A start signal can't became green, so, it must A and B traffic managers check any last train arrived on their own station, then once the A-B leg is clear, A calls B and declares last train from B to A is arrived , B declares last train from A to B arrived, then A requires clearance to B and B cleares to A. All this by phone but writted. But as A start signal and B home signal can't became "open" (they stay RED), the A traffic manager give to driver a sheet with clearance to start with red signal and declaration of "clear to go as exist ctelephonic clearance between A and B. Once train has reached B home signal, of course red, and stops, the B traffic manager give to train another clearance sheet with clearance to enter in B with red signal.   

RFI lines are all electric block:

Automatic, axles counter or manual in double track.

Axles counter or manual in single track.

As I told, telephone block is used only if a failure of system is in act,in example if the system is all under failure (block detection and then signals) but is very hard it happens.

I can tell this because I'm a train driver so I know well the system.

 

 

Not correct, staff and ticket working allows as many trains to follow one another as you like.  Only the last train in a particular direction has to take the staff, preceding trains take a written ticket as their authority to travel over the section which are kept in a box locked by the staff so that the staff for the section has to present before a train can be despatched, the driver also has to physically sight the staff as an extra safety check.

Good to hear from a fellow train driver.

 

I thought it would be something like that.  On Queensland Rail a driver always has to have some sort of physical authority to enter a single track section whether it be a proceed aspect in a signal, a staff or a written authority.

 

It will be interesting to hear what happened in this case.

 

Thanks Matteo_IT and westfalen for sharing this information.

 

I was checking more info about Italian Signalling and here below some signals I found:

 

Stop Signals

 

 

Warning Signals

 

 

 

Warning Signals and indicators

 

 

Cheers,

 

Nxcale

 

 

 

 

[Matteo_IT]

http://site.rfi.it/quadroriferimento/files/RS_01.pdf

[NXCALE]

http://site.rfi.it/quadroriferimento/files/RS_01.pdf

 

Thanks, now we got the power!

 

Cheers,

 

Nxcale

 

p.s. The doc is in Italian but it is still readable.

Edited July 14, 2016 by nxcale

[bikkuri bahn]

The stationmasters are being investigated:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-italy-train-crash-idUSKCN0ZU1I0

[westfalen]

So the station master just tells the driver it is ok to go, and he goes?  There has to be more checks and balances and fail safes than that when entering a single track section where there could be opposing traffic.

[Nick_Burman]

So the station master just tells the driver it is ok to go, and he goes?  There has to be more checks and balances and fail safes than that when entering a single track section where there could be opposing traffic.

 

Believe or not, it can be. The system was developed by the French in the 19th century and was spread wherever French technology was used (as in Italy). As both Matteo and Ronny have pointed out, RFI has moved over to CTC and block signalling on its secondary lines but a few local independent railways (like Ferrotranviaria, a.k.a Ferrovia del Nord Barese) have hung to it - until now. This accident might turn out to be a (tragic) game changer.

 

Cheers NB

[kvp]

 

So the station master just tells the driver it is ok to go, and he goes?  There has to be more checks and balances and fail safes than that when entering a single track section where there could be opposing traffic.

This is still in use elsewhere too, like in eastern Europe, but only on very small branchlines. The general rule is however mostly proceed on sight. This means the trains can not go faster than their visibility and braking distance, so things like blocked unprotected crossings don't pose a threat and trains could yield to road traffic, crossing pedestrians and wildlife. In this case, this italian line had a way too high speed limit for the available safety level. (a speed limit of 15-25 km/h would have been completly safe, down to 10-15 on curves and other short visibility stretches)

[westfalen]

This is still in use elsewhere too, like in eastern Europe, but only on very small branchlines. The general rule is however mostly proceed on sight. This means the trains can not go faster than their visibility and braking distance, so things like blocked unprotected crossings don't pose a threat and trains could yield to road traffic, crossing pedestrians and wildlife. In this case, this italian line had a way too high speed limit for the available safety level. (a speed limit of 15-25 km/h would have been completly safe, down to 10-15 on curves and other short visibility stretches)

Similar to our controlled speed, ie; must be able to stop within half the distance of your line of sight.  But if there is the possibilty of a train coming in the opposite direction then surely that needs to be reduced by half again.  By the appearance of the wreckage the trains were going far too fast for the method of safeworking in use which is more suited to a tramway than a main line.