Gerry's N Scale Japanese Design

[gerryo]

My reason for choosing the Baden-Baden layout is that it is the largest (reasonable) one that is to be shipped halfway around the world and still be is useable condition when it arrives here.  This gives it the largest (reasonable) radius curves for my long passenger cars. The 381/414 Kato Viaduct is pretty close to the Fleishman R3/R4 radii. 

 

As for inclines, all the incline sets for Japanese train tracks are touted to be 4% so this shouldn't be a problem.  If it is There are plenty of motor cars available.  Most countries use double heading as a means of gaining more power.

 

If these things can't be done then I am obviously using the wrong trains.  After all, parts of Japan are quite mountainous. 

 

Gerry

Edited July 23, 2016 by gerryo

[railsquid]

Unless you're planning to run British trains, you'll be fine.

[gerryo]

I have only Japanese trains now.  Even the shinkansens should work on the longest curves, and I will reserve the shorter curves for shorter cars.  All of my Odakyu trains have short cars, and of course, EMU's and DMU's are short by definition.

 

Using the helix from the yard with the long track of 330/362 should be OK.

 

Gerry

[cteno4]

Kato double viaduct incline set is 3.4% grade. 6-8 car trains with a single motor car do ok on them, some struggle. Going greater on the grade swiftly increases issues with many Japanese trains, big slowdowns and burning/tearing traction tires and eventual nasty ware. One of our club members had an ever evolving layout and at times went to 4-5% gradients and I did a lot of train repair for him. You could hear things treating themselves apart. Should be fine if you stick to the 3-3.5% grades with single motor cars, but if you find them grinding or slowing too much a second motor car will help.

 

Jeff

[kvp]

One thing about grades is that a sudden 4% grade is too sharp for low belly shinkansens. It should be eased with 1% 2% 3% and then 4% with longest car length sections, meaning 186 mm at least for shinkansens. Both the bottom and top of the ramp should have this vertical easment.

Edited July 23, 2016 by kvp

[cteno4]

Yep another issue is that vertical transitions. That actually stopped our member from this steeper grades more than tearing his equipment up as many would actually uncouple or derail with the vertical transition. I did make him a set of 248 track pieces where I sliced thru the base of the ballast up just into the bottom of the ties where 1/4" and then gently curved them vertically up and down to make gentler transitions for him than all at a sharp angle at the top and bottom track joints. It helped some, but on some trains it was just past what the cars could handle gracefully. He really enjoyed cramming a lot into the 4' X 10' area he had on top of his dining room table!

 

Jeff

[Staffy]

if gerryo is only using bullets on outer 2 lines on baden baden he'll be ok as these don't have the grades of the 2nd from inner lane. This is the one where motive power options may be limited - 249mm curves and two grades up and down I think (although I think it may be more like 1.5 grades as looks like the innermost line sinks a little). Might be hakone and railcars only on the inner 2 lines...but that's ok right

[gerryo]

 

This rendition of the train yard lower level shows a very large amount of space for trains.  Everything from 496mm to almost 1500mm.  More than I will need.  And, yes, I know it needs a double crossover in there somewhere.

 

Gerry

Edited July 25, 2016 by gerryo

[gerryo]

Does a double crossover cause too much trouble with its wiring?  I know it's more expensive to put in 4 single crosses but I think they are easier to connect.

 

Gerry

[kvp]

Depends on the track system. The Tomix crossover is fully power routing, while the Kato just needs 4 power feed joiner cables at its 4 tracks. Another alternative is the single crossover with 2 turnouts, that has all the features of two turnouts in a single double track piece

[katoftw]

while the Kato just needs 4 power feed joiner cables at its 4 tracks.

Why 4?

[kvp]

As a double crossover has 4 connecting tracks and they are isolated from each other (straight through ones by a single, crossover ones by both rails). The easiest solution is to add a feeder to each track and wire them to the up and down controllers. (or just to the main bus with dcc)

[cteno4]

If it's a simple pair of loops with a crossover between them the you could do a single feeder to each loop anywhere in the loop as the power would go all the way around the loop to feed from each side of the crossover. But as soon as you start putting in points into the loops you will start isolating sections depending on how the points are switched as power will not go thru a double crossover as kvp pointed out and more feeders will be needed to make things work properly as kvp points out to feed all sections leading to the crossover unless you have a situation in your plan you want those tracks outside the crossover dead in some situations.

 

Dcc of course feeders everywhere!

 

Cheers,

 

Jeff

[gerryo]

OK. So, first of all, there will be no DCC.  Mainly because I don't know anything about it and therefor I don't want it.  I don't need to know.

 

Further into the same problem of train yards,  Should there be a single track helix or a double track.  With double track you would use the outer track for the "up", and inner for "down".  This makes it easy to pull long trains on the up, and the down doesn't need to be easier.  But then comes the problem of parking trains.  Do they get parked headed for the up, and should there be a long straight just before the up starts?

 

Crazy questions.

 

Gerry

[kvp]

Single directional trains (loco hauled, non push-pull) usually need a continous running yard, that can be entered on one side and exited on the other. This is usally done in case of under surface yards, that a double track helix goes down to the storage level, splits into two, goes into a yard, then the other (exit) side joins back and goes up.

 

An alternative is to have a single track reversing loop, with the yard in the middle or have the yard between the helix and the reversing loop. This allows a train that should only go forward to always go in head first and still emerge head first.

 

For anything that is not a bidirectional emu/dmu, i would suggest one of the setups above.

[cteno4]

Gerry,

 

Where will the helix break thru on the layout track plan? You will need at least a 180 degree cut area (that's at like a 4-5% grade) to break thru the layout base with the top of the helix. Also you will need to have room between your tables or be able to cut thru them as well.

 

Depending on your points in the layout you could do just a single track to do up and down to the yard and just switch them over ot the other lines up on the layout. How would the double track helix stub break into your double track on the layout,myou will need to cross over the outside track with your inside track.

 

Have you looked at helix systems yet?

 

Jeff

[gerryo]

 

I have spent most of the last 4 days trying to figure out what I want the helix to do for me.  I think I have it now.

 

Yes I want the UP track to be the longest, so must be the outer one.  The inner one, DOWN, must be able to be a continuous run back to the UP.  The parked trains must have access to this continuous loop to be switched onto the UP helix.

 

I was initially mixing myself up  with the top and bottom of the helix.  When you draw the helix with double track but only one end connected, then you can see where they must be connected.  The two tracks on a double track helix only reach the bottom ONCE.  So your loop starts and stops there.  The other end of the helix ends somewhere up on the layout, where the trains enter or exit it.

 

It took me a while to figure this out, so you young fellows should be able to do this in your sleep.

 

I'll finish my drawing and edit it into this later.

 

Gerry

Edited July 27, 2016 by gerryo

[gerryo]

This may give a better idea of what I mean.

 

All tracks entering the DOWN to UP loop are isolated from it.

 

Gerry

[cteno4]

Gerry,

 

Looks good but will both helix tracks attach into the double main line on the layout? If so they you will need to have the inner track from the helix cross the outer track of your layout loop to hook into the layout double track loop.

 

You are going to have to do some extra block wiring control as well as you have your two layout double loops connected to each other by the loop back between the up and down helix tracks. Or if the up and down merge together with a point to just pop onto the outer track of the outer double loop, then you will have created a reversing loop in the yard and need to wire for that.

 

Are you doing this with point power routing power control and separate controllers for each loop or classic block wiring between a pair of throttles?

 

You will need the room at the layout to have at least the first top half helix turn (if you make the top helix loop greater grade to pop into the layout space faster) clear of tracks at the layout surface level. I guess you have that on the right extension if there are no tracks over the helix out there, but you will need to go steep on that pop thru stretch.

 

Cheers,

 

Jeff

[kvp]

Imho an easier to wire solution is to have two single track helixes that form an alternate route to one of the surface loops. The track goes down on one helix, forms the yard, then the exit goes up and joins the surface loop. It could be wired as a simple siding.

 

Another trick is to have one track depart from one loop and the other enter the other. The storage area needs a switch that selects between one of the loops for power. The tracks can emerge on both sides of the double track loop. This arrangement turns the trains around and the power has to be switched from the arrival loop to the departure loop when the two surface turnouts are thrown. (also two double rail isolators are required at these turnouts towards the storage area)

 

Imho, the surface track arrangement decides what solution is practical to use. Considering the trackplan for the Baden Baden layout looks something like this:

It looks rather hard to connect anything as there isn't much space. The right extension was designed with a storage yard in mind though, but i can't find a usable trackplan for it.

 

[gerryo]

The track plan for the right extension is in the noch web site under Extensions.  The "N" right extension is in the list and when entered, the Fleishman plan is on page 4.

 

Most of what you guys posted is meaningless to me.  The helix pics are listed under Helixes on the same web site.  And no I don't know how to make a link to it.

 

For you kvp, you obviously found the main track plan on the noch site.  Go to where it displays extensions and scroll down to the N right extension and go to the 4th page.

 

Gerry

[kvp]

Found it! The original plans:

and i pasted the suggested modifications:

 

Besides that they don't quite match up (which can be solved by rearranging the straights), it's clear that this is the easiest to wire single siding only configuration as the double helix goes down, forms a ballon loop with the storage tracks in it then goes back up and joins the same single track loop. The polarities will match and the trains have the possibilitiy to run through the bottom, the middle or the upper route, the latter being a trip down to the storage level and back up without reversing. This also eliminates a reversing loop, which makes it even more easier to wire as the whole layout is down to 4 loops and only the outermost is crossing into the extension module and down to the storage yard.

[gerryo]

Thanx kvp.  I think that I will use Fleishman track on the Helix, just to be sure I get the right radii.  Kato have an adapter piece to meet up with Fleishman track so that makes it easier.

 

This is, of course, still in the planning stage so will be subject to mods.

 

I've just been told that some of my noch tables are in now so are being sent on.  Probably by courier because of their size. 

 

Gerry

[cteno4]

I guess they bare showing the entrance to the helix there on the second extension plan. Looks like with the 9120 and 9125 radius you have room in the extension area there for the helix "hole" to drop thru. What I keep talking about is the slowly descending channel you will need to cut thru the extension top (and any table support under the extension top) to allow the helix to decend down to your lower level. Most folks just have a big hole cut out in their top layout for the helix and then have a scenery lid that plops on top of it with the proper clearances (for trains) to allow the helix to emerge. This way you can always have easy access to the helix from the inside if there are problems as well as the outside.

 

Does noch sell a helix structure? There are several companies that make them and you can get them made to various sizes. They are pretty easy to make with thin plywood and long threaded bolt stock and nuts to adjust heights. All you need is a drill and a jig saw and a lot of plywood! 90 degree curves are cut out of the plywood with an extra inch on the outside and inside of the track radius. Then small blocks are used on the outside and inside of the track to secure each of the 90 degree sections together. Holes are drilled at specific places for the threaded stock "legs" to go thru and nuts on the top and bottom of each section on its threaded stock leg let you adjust its vertical height and lock them in place. Pretty straight forward to assemble, attach one 360 loop sections together and slip over your threaded stock (with nuts there and adjusted to the proper height and then it's added on top) and attach to the lower loop end with blocks. Repeat. I helped doing one like this back in the 70s on a friend's HO layout and it was simple to assemble. Bit easier due to size to get at, but took two people to assemble for sure!

 

Folks also replace the threaded stock with external legs with regular slots cut in them for the ply sections to rest in, but this way is not adjustable if you need any fiddling later. I made legs like this with slots for one of out club member that did a 3 loop helix using Kato double viaduct. That worked pretty well and since he had it all visible I made them to look like concrete pillars.

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

Edited July 28, 2016 by cteno4

[kvp]

Actually, this helix setup is available as a kit, including the holes as the tables are just frames that carry the Noch terrain. The terrain is empty below, with (usually) strips of wood glued to where the tracks go in the tunnels. In this case, the right strips must be installed for the helix to line up with the tracks. In theory, you just align the top part above the helix and the two tracks will line up.

 

Gerryo, the plan has some pieces misaligned on the plan, that has to be fixed while building, but otherwise it should generally work. You'll have a really nice european style layout that could be dressed up to look like a Japanse Alps layout, for example the Nagano area. The platforms will be extremly short, due to the high Japanese platforms causing clearence issues around the turnouts, but if you can live with 2 to 4 car sets, that's ok. You can get rid of the turnouts between the 2nd and 3rd loops (or at least one of them) and that would allow you a longer island platform. There will be some modding to do to get the right platform sizes that would fit.

Edited July 28, 2016 by kvp