Tomix turnouts and Digitrax DS 64

[Oz_Paul]

My layout uses Tomix fine track including turnouts. I was planning to order the Digitrax DS64 stationary decoders but was not sure if they will work. Any experiences to share?

 

http://www.digitrax.com/products/stationary-decoders/ds64/

 

An alternative recommended was from DCC Specialities which is a lot more expensive.

 

https://tonystrains.com/product/dcc-specialties-jack-wabbit-w-loconet-for-high-voltage-snap-coil-switch-machines/

[Ochanomizu]

Hello again,

 

Yes, DS64 will work.  Treat Tomix turnouts the same as Kato in the DS64 manual.  

[kvp]

One more thing: i would suggest to feed it with a separate DC supply and a loconet data connection instead of running it from the DCC signal.

[Oz_Paul]

Thanks all.

 

The plan is to to use a PM 42 from the Super Chief for power management.

 

The 4 sections of the PM 42 will control the outer loop, the inner loop and the yard as 3 separate districts and the 4th to power 3 DS 64's around the layout as below.

 

The Nemo case study was great reference material, thanks..

 

Might keep block detection/signalling on hold until I finish rewiring the entire layout from DC to DCC (and get my head around its complexities!). 

Edited April 28, 2016 by Oz_Paul

[Ochanomizu]

Hello,

 

Generally, a motor car on an EMU will pull less than ¹/₂ A.  Unless you have in-car lighting you can run about 5 consists and not trip the PM42 in its default setting.  So your plan to separate 3 power districts is sound.

 

However, I recommend you leave district 4 free and obtain two separate power supplies, one for the DS64s and the other for the BDL168s.  I use something like these.  These will power 12-15 DS64s or BDL168s.  It is better to keep detection on a separate supply to turn outs.  Also, your PM42 can be powered by the same one as your turn outs.

 

Also, I use Accu-Lites - Digitrax Breakout Boards instead of the edge connectors supplied by Digitrax.  These minimise soldering and make the whole set up process much easier.

[Ochanomizu]

Hello,

 

Please to clarify my previous post: you can run 5 consists per district with the PM42 in its default setting without it tripping out.

[Oz_Paul]

Thanks for all the very useful tips.

 

Planning to set up an electronics control panel similar to this when my Digitrax stuff gets here. Finally did order the BDL 168 also to enable computer control.

 

 

Edited April 30, 2016 by Oz_Paul

[Oz_Paul]

Slowly getting there with all the wiring that block detection entails!

 

Attached is the latest layout colour coded for all the Detection/ Passing through sections.

 

Not entirely sure regarding wiring for turnout areas as some say turnouts should be excluded from block detection which is what I have done.

 

Any feedback most welcome.

 

Key to the layout are as below:

 

The 4 subsections of the PM42 are:

A: Outerloop

B: Inner Loop

Y: Yard

AM: Accessories/ Misc.

 

The 4 DS64's have their own dedicated power supply and do not feed off the PM 42.

 

The B-rail of the Digitrax PM 42 feeds into the BDL168 for block detection as below:

 

A: 4 blocks (only 3 used though)

B: 8 Blocks (of which 2 are located in the Yard)

Y: 4 Blocks

 

AM areas are not block-detection and hence do not route through the BDL168. All turnouts are located in the AM 'Passing through' section.

 

'Passing through' is an Anyrail software reference.

 

There is one AR (Auto reversing section) which is to be routed through an Digitrax AR1.

 

A picture of the wiring for the electronics board is also attached.

 

Tested all sections wired to a single track and all works well. Have since finished wiring 2 detection blocks B1 & B2 which also seems to work well.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Oz_Paul

[Ochanomizu]

Hello Mr Oz_Paul,

 

Did you have a chance to read this post and it's attachments?

 

Please allow me to make several observations:

 

Firstly, AM = no block detection right? So, how will you know the busy sections of track with crossings and turn outs are occupied?  This is where collisions can occur.  To me, these sections need block detection.  You should think of a block as a piece of track where it is critical that only one consist be at any time.  For example, I would add the yard turn outs to the Y1 block, as you wouldn't want two consists running through the turn outs at the same time.  Have you no detection on your double cross overs?  I have not used because I'm unfamiliar with how they are wired.

 

Secondly, where I want front car of consist to stop accurately I add a "stopping" section as per the link above.  I found that post very useful.  So, station and siding have "slow down" block for most of length and then short "stopping" block.  This means accurate stopping for running with automation software.

[Oz_Paul]

Thanks for your feedback. Amended version is as attached. Cross overs need track feed on either side.

 

I may have to add one more BDL 168 down the track if I need to add slow down & stop sections as I have already used up the 16 sections available.

 

Currently Y5 & Y6 do not have detection. The other section without detection is the auto reverse AR along with the 2 'passing through' sections AM on either side. Wiring for auto reverse with detection is very complex.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Oz_Paul

[inobu]

I think you have the bulk of the task under control and I will add this suggestion.

 

Although this might seem out of sequence it is far more effective. Switch over to JMRI. It has the Control panel module that lets you visualize your layouts configuration. Based on what I saw your layout has 14 stop locations. The stop locations are any segment of track that the train can stop for any given reason. With that I counted 27 sections in order to keep things running smoothly. 

 

Using JMRI's control panel you can start to configure your layout/sections to support the operations that you want to occur. Using the control panel you can designate which section is occupied and what the effects will be when it is. Trying to undo anything will be a nightmare once you wire it in. 

 

 Don't let this image intimidate you just use it as a guideline to what needs to be done.

 

 

The reason I suggest this now is, its easier to perform operation test via software here than wire everything just to find out its not what you want. I posted an overview of JMRI the BDL168 and more.

 

Here is a tip.

 

Create as many sections as you can. It does not matter because you can tie them together below the track.

 

Let's take Section A4 for example.

 

You can break A4 into 2 sections with isolaters on the track but can connect them together below track. If you want more control then disconnect the link and provide its own BDL feed. That way you will not have to alter the track once its laid.

 

In any case I think you need to jump ahead to test out the operation of your track before you go further. 

 

Inobu    

Edited June 6, 2016 by inobu

[Ochanomizu]

Hello,

 

I still wonder about the double cross over and two tracks being in the same section.  I think this severely limits operability of the layout and wonder how JMRI would cope with it?

[Oz_Paul]

Thanks for all the very handy advice.

 

Have revisited the layout and amended to reflect slow down and stop sections (for clockwise operations).

 

Just slowly getting familiar with JMRI so not able to comment on the impact of the 2 cross overs. Anyrail groups the 2 tracks together when creating a section that includes the cross over.

 

Attached is the revised layout both as a picture (JPG) and as a JMRI Layout (XML) file.

Layout_June 2016_v2.xml

Edited June 7, 2016 by Oz_Paul

[Ochanomizu]

Hello,

 

I think you have advanced considerably.  My question still remains about the double cross overs.  For example, travelling clockwise, when a consist leaving A1 passes on to A2 you cannot have a consist on B1 or B2 also enter A2, even though it is another loop, because you've tied part of both loops up in the one block.  I think you must separate.

[inobu]

Paul,

 

Your JMRI file did not work for me so I created one for you. I'm not sure where you are in JMRI but hopefully it will help.   

 

Here is a Panel Pro file with the Layout panel setup. This allows you to operate the switches and test the occupancy. I think once you see this it will clarify what you need to do.

 

This is a zip file that has everything in it. 

 

Unzip it to your C drive/ temp if you have one. (I assure you there is no virus or anything)

 

When you open Panel pro click the add existing button. this will point panel pro to the needed files.

You will see the LJ_2016 file click it and it will load everything.

 

Click ok

 

Select Panel, then Open Panel then J16.xml

 

It will show the beginnings of your layout ( I didnt finish it.)

 

Next open Tools, tables and turnouts.

 

Here I created 10 turnouts. Their addresses are 20-29. So you would program your DS64 to these values when you get to that point. For right now you are learning the correlation with in JMRI

 

i have set up the first two switches. On the turnout table is you click LT21 Cmd button twice and watch the My layout screen you will see the switches switch. The initial state is unknown. When you click the button the second time it will find its state.

 

Next open the sensor table. This is the BDL168 sensor. I created 30 sensors which is 30 blocks.

This is the way JMRI matched the loconet commands to the components in My Layout. 

 

So on My Layout right click on the circle on the left inner curve. (This will show you the properties and editing controls) select edit.

 

Here you will see the block name. click create/edit/block.

click sensor tab.

 

The sensor LS1 is assigned to this track segment. So go to the sensor table and click the state button from unknown to active and watch the My layout.  Click LS1-LS4. This is your inner loop.

Now jump down to LS11,12 and 13 and click each.

 

If you play with this you will learn a lot. It will teach you the dynamics and I think it will cause you to rethink your block assignments to better operate your layout.

 

We can say it over and over but its takes seeing it first.

 

Hope this helps

 

Inobu

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

paul.zip

Edited June 8, 2016 by inobu

[inobu]

I should add that there are three Panel tools each has their uses.

 

Use Layout panel to give you a visual aid in configuring and testing the operation of your layout. After that you can use Panel Editor to create your display control panel that is the example I posted above.

 

Inobu

Edited June 8, 2016 by inobu

[Oz_Paul]

Wow! Talk about diving into the deep end for me.

 

The amount of effort you have put into this is sincerely appreciated.

 

Paul

[inobu]

Its a lot easier to do now that i understand JMRI better. I really think you should leave the physical track alone for now and focus on the JMRI side.

 

Because your layout has shorter runs and a lot of quick turnouts you need more blocks. By simulating the operation in panel Pro you can get a better idea of how the layout will run and add or move the blocks based on your needs..

 

When I build a layout I lay the track in anyrail to get the basic layout set. Then establish the blocks and zones by color. Afterwards I build it in Panel Pro to see how it works. When it does what I want it to I build and lay the track.

 

Inobu 

Edited June 9, 2016 by inobu

[Oz_Paul]

Test run with the 16 blocks/sensors and turnouts functioning.

 

A quick question if I may. How do I assign Loconet turnouts, sensors and blocks to an Internal layout?

 

Must confess that JMRI is not the most intuitive software that I have used.

 

Paul

[inobu]

Yes, it's convoluted because it does so much but once you get the concept down it gets better. 

 

JMRI works via "Look up tables". Meaning that the system will look in one table and the reference to another table.

 

Using the JMRI file I posted will help you find your way through the maze.  

 

Turnout Basics

 

DCC is a messaging system that powers and messages the train over the track at the same time. Digitrax has their own protocol and messaging language which is sent out via packets.  When you send a command to throw a switch that command has an address header labeled on the data packet. Inside the packet is the command. Data packets are broadcasted over the entire track and each decoder looks for all packets with their addresses, reads the one with their address and carries out the command. 

 

Each DCC manufacturer has their own protocol in this case we are looking at Digitrax's Loconet. Digitrax packets are labeled LX¹X².       L = Loconet       X¹ is Turnout          X²   is the turnout address number.

 

So LT160 would be a turnout that is assigned an address of 160

 

DS64

 

The DS64 comes preset with the turnout addresses set to 1-4. This means that the address for a new out of the box turnouts would be turnouts 1-4. Also it means that the Loconet address will be LT1 - LT4. You can reassign the address by programming the DS64 to any value from 01-2048.

 

JMRI

 

JMRI is tied to the data network via the USB interface. It too monitors and reads the data packets and uses the tables to correlate the messages with the program to create the graphical displays. JMRI also creates packets and inserts the commands for decoders to read. This is how Decoder Pro (reads and writes) programs decoders within the DCC track (another monster in JMRI).

 

Panel Pro

 

Panel Pro allows you to create all the components that makes up your automated layout. You need to be able to tie your electronics (DS64,BDL168,SEC-8) to the computer and then create the graphical display of your layout. In order to do this you need to reference all of these components. Panel Pro allows you to do this. In this exercise we will look at Layout Editor (graphical design of your layout) and the Table entry of your components. Both of these panels creates the basic files used in JMRI to manage your layout.     

 

The File

 

I intentionally created the JMRI file with the addresses changed from the factory setting to help with the explanation of the inter workings of JMRI. It creates a programming exercise. I will assume that you used the post above to load and view the panel file. Now we will update the components to work with the JMRI configuration posted. We can either change the electronic components to work with the JMRI file or change the JMRI file to work with the electronic components. It will better serve you to change the electronic components to the JMRI file as you will see the system as a whole.

 

Lets start   

 

Open Panel Pro------->Tools>Table>Turnouts

Panel Pro ----------->Panels Open Panel> select J16.xml (this will open My Layout from Layout editor

 

You should have this screen

 

 

Layout Editor uses the Tables from Panel Pro to create the graphical display of your layout. If you do not

populate the tables in Panel Pro then Layout Editor will not have any link to reference the graphical display to.

 

A quick test. If you click LT21 cmd button you will see a switch throw in the My Layout display. This will check the table look up

between table turnout and My Layout.   .

 

A right clock on the circle in the switch will open the properties menu seen by the mouse arrow pointer. From this menu you can edit the settings or controls for the switch.

 

Notice that TO2 is the name for this switch in Layout Editor and it marks the graphical icon within its panel only. This shows that the names are referenced from one table to another.

TO2 is referenced to user name Switch:1 in table turnouts when is referenced as LS21 in Loconet which is Address 21 in the DS64.

 

Making it Work 

 

The best approach is to create stability. Which is the default setting. From there we will build out. So most likely you installed the switches and can control them via the throttle. This means that you can enter switch 1 via the throttle and Loconet will send that address to the DS64 and it will throw the switch. So the address via Loconet will be LT1.

 

If you look at Table Turnout there is no LT1. I configured addresses 20-29. You will need to add addresses 1-4 or 5-8 if you have 2 DS64.

 

To add the address just click add in the turnout table it will open the Add New Turnout window.

 

The hardware address is the address value which is the default 1-4. You can add them 1 at a time or select

add range and add 4. the system will add a range of them.

 

 

Notice that we added the address without an username. It is ok as it will prove a point.

 

Right clicking on the little circle in the switch on the my Layout panel we will see the properties menu next select edit

it will open the Edit turnout.

 

Enter LT1

 

 

 

and click done.

 

this will assign the LT1 address directly and the user name is not required and the look up will be directly to LT1. Click the Cmd button and you will see the switch thrown in the

My Layout panel.

 

Overview

 

What we have done so far is add the component address for a switch to its Table (table turnout) then change the switch reference in My Layout from LT20 to LT1. The next step would be to change

the address 1-4 in the DS64 to Address 20-23 and 24-27 is the next DS64.

 

The same concept is perform in the DBL168 although the DBL168 is a bit more complex the concept is the same I have a write up on the BDL168 and SEC8 on another page.  

 

Try the BDL168 on your own. The only difference is the Table is sensor and it is LSX. Loconet Sensor X. I left the default the same you just need to reassign the second DBL's address.

.

BDL168

 

Here is the quick overview of the screens

The table sensor is your BDL168 and its 16 blocks. Table Block is the table that references the blocks that are in the layout.

 

The main image reflects the tables and edit menus.

The inner main line is red because it is occupied. The state button is presses and labeled active in the sensor table. Unclicking will cause it to turn inactive and the line segment will turn black.

Right clicking on the little circle in the track segment will open its property and edit menu. That will open the Edit track segment window. This will link the track segment in My Layout (Layout Editor)

to table Block. Click the create/edit will open the window for Edit Block and its specific block fields. In the main image you can see that the colors are managed their and the second image below shows the sensor tab. That tab shows what sensor us referenced in this case it is the first address in table sensor LS1. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The LS1 packet will have active on inactive and JMRI will react to it setting the field to Active or inactive, The tables will instruct how the graphical display will be set.

This should get you going. If not Ill be watching.   

 

Inobu

Edited June 10, 2016 by inobu

[gavino200]

 

 

Secondly, where I want front car of consist to stop accurately I add a "stopping" section as per the link above.  I found that post very useful.  So, station and siding have "slow down" block for most of length and then short "stopping" block.  This means accurate stopping for running with automation software.

 

Ochanomizu, I'm incorporating this idea of yours into my layout, based on a suggestion in another thread. The logic is sound based on a 'traditional' train with motor unit in front. It just occurred to me that this doesn't provide for accurate stopping when running a shinkansen, or other train with a dummy cab and a motor unit in the middle of the train. Have you had a problem with this? Did you add another short stopping section in the middle of the platform? Or do you use a different type of sensor? Any advise? 

Edited February 7, 2017 by gavino200

[gavino200]

 

 

When I build a layout I lay the track in anyrail to get the basic layout set. Then establish the blocks and zones by color. Afterwards I build it in Panel Pro to see how it works. When it does what I want it to I build and lay the track.

 

 

Great idea.

[gavino200]

 

DS64

 

The DS64 comes preset with the turnout addresses set to 1-4. This means that the address for a new out of the box turnouts would be turnouts 1-4. Also it means that the Loconet address will be LT1 - LT4. You can reassign the address by programming the DS64 to any value from 01-2048.

 

 

 

Please forgive my ignorance here. I'm just skimming the surface regarding junction control. Is the Jack Wabbit Quad stationary decoder an alternative to the DS64? Or do the two work together?

[kvp]

It just occurred to me that this doesn't provide for accurate stopping when running a shinkansen, or other train with a dummy cab and a motor unit in the middle of the train.

As long as you have some load in your front car (motor, headlights, a dummy resistor) it will work. This means only headlightless cab cars will be invisible.

 

The ds64 and the rabbits are competing products with different features. Not all rabbits are loconet compatible though.

[inobu]

Please forgive my ignorance here. I'm just skimming the surface regarding junction control. Is the Jack Wabbit Quad stationary decoder an alternative to the DS64? Or do the two work together?

The jack wabbit has more signaling features wired in than the DS64. It is a competing product as kvp said.   Make sure that you order the jack wabbit with the loconet option. It will be plug and play then.

 

Inobu