Question: Proper wiring of Kato #6 turnouts in DCC

[nik_n_dad]

I think this has been answered in the past, but as I've searched old posts, it's not clicking with me (so apologies).

 

We're re-building the layout, and I've never been sure we've wired the kato n-scale #6 turnouts correctly for DCC.  (We've gone to some of the DCC-specific websites where methods are described to open-up the turnouts and make mods, which we're not really up for).

 

The big question is what type of unijoiner is most appropriate for the frog-side of the turnout.  In the past we've typically used standard unijoiners or unijoiner-feeders on the point-end of the turnout and then insulated unijoiners on the frog-side.  

 

This has worked, but we do get stalls sometimes.  Since the #6 turnouts are power-routing, our question is whether we need or should use insulated unijoners on the frog-side or if standard unijoiners will either give us better performance or set fire to things.

 

as always, TIA.

 

Mike and Niko

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2016 by nik_n_dad

[kvp]

I think feeder joiners on the frog side should work. That way the power routing is disabled and the actual frog still remains isolated from the frog rails.

[inobu]

The problem lies in the installation of the turnout. It is difficult to secure the turnout which causes it to bend and flex. Depending on the train's wheel base it can lose contact with the rail causing the stall in most cases. The rememdy

is securing the approaching sections of the turnout to the roadbed. Keeping the turnout flat prevents the rolling action of the track. The addition of the joiner/feed acts more like a strap on the turnout and keeps it flat in the long run. 

 

I would verify the issue by taping the turnout to the roadbed if that does not resolve the issues add the feeder joiners. Easy way first because I'm lazy

 

Inobu   

[kvp]

The feeders added to the frog rails are required to disable the power routing, otherwise half the tracks behind it would not get power. The opening and bridging instructions just explain how to do the same internally. Adding the feed points externally would have the same effect with more wires but no internal hacking. The #4-s have these internal jumpers accessible on the bottom.

 

ps: adding feeders to both the frog and stock rails would add fixed power to the whole turnout, except the cast frog and moving blades that will still be switched by the internal switch

[nik_n_dad]

Thanks for the tips.

 

For clarity, NO reason to put insulating joiners anywhere?

 

So what I'm reading here is:

 

1) Instead of having the turnout "floating", or not glued to the layout, I should at least tack it down

2) Put feeders on the all three sets of track, the points-end and both the frog/stock rail end.

3) No need for insulating joiners

[inobu]

It is best to explain the problems that occurs so you can avoid if any may arise. 

 

When the switch is not secured it will move around. If it shifts in the wrong position it could cause the engine wheels to lose contact causing stalls.

 

You can float the switch if the entry and exit tracks are secured and there is a flat base that the switch can rest on. All of this in dependent on the consistency of the surrounding track install.

 

Sometimes tacking the switch onto a surface that is not flat will cause problems. The switch can create an off camber scenario where the wheel sets of the cars or freight will clip the points and derail.

 

Providing some kind of base for the switch will make things easier.

 

Inobu

 

Here is an example.

 

This is a build I'm working on using Atlas which is a problematic switch. This switch is on a short run slope. I created a base that allows the switch to run with the slope. Notice the shim placed under the track and joint to prevent the movement. It is not as bad with the Kato switches but the potential trouble is their just the same.

 

Notice how the base is larger than the switch. This allows the joining track to rest on the base as well insuring a smooth connection.

Edited June 3, 2016 by inobu

[Guest Closed Account 1]

"We're re-building the layout, and I've never been sure we've wired the kato n-scale #6 turnouts correctly for DCC.  (We've gone to some of the DCC-specific websites where methods are described to open-up the turnouts and make mods, which we're not really up for).

 

This has worked, but we do get stalls sometimes.  Since the #6 turnouts are power-routing, our question is whether we need or should use insulated unijoners on the frog-side or if standard enjoiners will either give us better performance or set fire to things."

 

Nik:

 

Have you cleaned the rail crown, webbing, and points? Turnouts are the hardest to keep clean because you cannot just wipe them. Alcohol dipped Qtips and makeup swabs seem to work best.

 

Have you trouble shot the area of concern with a multimeter or loco or dcc lighted car?

 

Lots of info about DCC Turnouts online.

 

Turnouts are a marvel, and a chaotic point for the wheels especially when traveling in facing point movements. Avoid chopping rails whenever possible.

 

Use insulators instead. Using insulators at the frog is smart. Check for correct power and operation before securing track to the layout.

 

You can modify a switch to accept a decoder or get one for cheap and easy from NCE and the turnout is left untouched.

 

With the NCE Switch-Kat, you would create a bus for track power and then run wires to each Turnout. Mount the decoders where you can easily get to them.

 

You can also use the Switch-Kat decoder for Signals, or just use a 3-legged bi-color green and red LED at the Turnout.

 

The Kato Blue Throw Switches are fine for temporary layouts , and metal push button switches are best.

 

Kato Page http://www.katomodels.com/hobby/dcc/dcc_tips/mylayout.shtml

 

NCE Switch-Kat http://www.ncecorporation.com/pdf/Switch_Kat.pdf

 

Kato Double Crossovers need four decoders.

Edited June 18, 2016 by Webskipper

[Ochanomizu]

...

 

For clarity, NO reason to put insulating joiners anywhere?

...

 

Hello,

 

So sorry your question has not been answered.  I use Tomix, but will endeavour to assist you.

 

Please consider the advice in this link.

 

In addition to this, you need to consider whether your turnout is:

 

a. At the junction of two power districts.  If so, you need to isolate both rails at the junction;

 

b. At the junction of two blocks.  If so, you need to isolate one rail to divide blocks.

 

I hope this advice is helpful.

[kvp]

Some of the answers above seems a bit chaotic. So in short: Kato and Tomix turnouts have the required insulators built in (look for them near the frog) and also come with power routing built in. This power routing is not based on the frog and blade polaristation, but provide on-off control without wrong polarity in the unselected rail. (unlike peco for example) To make them power anywhere, you just have to connect each outside stock rail to the opposite inside frog rail. The best way is with a wire between two joiners. The two cross wires keep the frog rails powered. (Kato #4s have these bridges built in and selectable with screws)

 

No extra feeds and insulators are required for proper operation of a turnout under DCC, just the two bridges mentioned above. (please don't hack the turnouts themselves as they are reliable off the shelf and could even be glued down as long the glue doesn't get inside through the bottom holes)

[inobu]

Actually, the issue at hand is stalls. Although stalls are accessed to power issues the true nature of the problem is how flat the switch lies. If the switch is uneven then it can cause the wheel set to lose contact.

 

This causes a see saw effect. It is the off camber effect that causes the stall where as either the left and right wheel set looses contact not the front and rear. The weight of the other cars can hold the disconnect between the engine and rail.

 

The engine will stall until the weight of the train shifts to allows substantial power contact to supply power to the motor.

 

This is why this comment become relevant "This has worked, but we do get stalls sometimes".

 

The problem is also based on speed. Faster speeds can skew the problem and slower speeds can exacerbate the problem. That is why I introduced the Atlas switch. It is a problematic switch and after the base plate was installed that layout has Zero stalls at a slow creep with a Kato NW2  

 

This is one of the shortest wheel base engines which is effected the most by stalls. I tested the switches on that above layout having the NW2 run for 2 hours at a creep and had no stalls.

 

So, if you have stalls on a switch and your power is sound the issue is with the switch installation.

 

Inobu

Edited June 19, 2016 by inobu

[kvp]

I would like add that Kato turnouts have built in roadbeds that eliminates most problems with track laying and could even be used on the floor. The two jumper wire trick for DDC mentioned above works even for floor layouts.

[inobu]

I would like add that Kato turnouts have built in roadbeds that eliminates most problems with track laying and could even be used on the floor. The two jumper wire trick for DDC mentioned above works even for floor layouts.

Kato switches are susceptible to the same issue.

 

The switch assembly looks ok but the metal bottom does not prevent the switch from flexing. The two screws are toward the center of the switches and the edges are free to move. Although the track bed has the channel for the wire, the wire still lifts the switch off the surface causing the see saw effect. If the turnout or main rail is higher or lower the problem is still prevalent.

 

Each switch has its inherent problem but the root causes typically point back to installation. As I stated before once a switch is installed flat and voltage is applied to the rails the engine will not have a problem. Straight flat rails conduct electricity through the wheel sets crooked or uneven rails causes problems. . 

 

Inobu